evgenirus

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Well, the "pull" part isn't really part of this method, if one can call it a method. Nor is "push", actually, unless you count just saying to do it.

 

The analogy that comes to my mind is how some games have a hard mode. It is more difficult, some "cheats" like auto-aim or respawning may be disabled, but it's arguably more awesome and definitely encourages you to improve your skills.

 

Some might go straight for the hard mode, and either beat it through sheer determination and tons of repetition, or burn out and quit the game. (The earlier versions of "Tulpamancy" were Nintendo Hard, there wasn't any alternative in the FAQman's edition.)

Some may complete the game on normal or even easy difficulty and be content with that, maybe try getting some achievements.

Others might switch difficulty mid-game, but it would not be the same as playing on hard from the start, your earlier progress would likely help you and your skills won't improve as much. Or you might not get some hardmode-exclusive loot from before and continuing on hard would be extremely hard or impossible. And the longer you play on easy before going hard, the more difference it makes.

Yet others, therefore, would prefer to restart on higher difficulty after acquiring some skills and confidence by finishing some part of the game on normal. Still, that would not be a "complete reset", your skills stay with you.

 

Following that analogy, I'd have to say that I didn't participate in making the game, and the different difficulty levels aren't my doing, nor am I suggesting how to play it. I'm just pointing out that there is a hard mode, in case you are feeling like something is amiss, and you might want to play it from the beginning.

 

The analogy gets kinda iffy, though, when you realize that the game is keeping the high scores and lets you use some upgrades from the previous runs. To get the real experience of playing on hard from start, you'd have to put some effort into ignoring those bonuses you accumulated before resetting. If I ever publish my "method" as a guide, it would be mostly about that part.

 

Also, note that in this model tulpas aren't part of those permanent bonuses, not even part of the game. They are part of you and your skills.


𝝮mega system account

[Jay] (a.k.a. evgenirus, a.k.a. Evg) is the host. (Used plain text prior to May 2019.)

[Sunny] (a.k.a. Alice, rarely) is the older tulpa. (Yellow text is her words, too.)

[Pinkie] (a.k.a. Ponka, a.k.a. Diane) is the younger tulpa. (She used to talk in pink here.)

Come see our progress report thread, if you have time.

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Okay, first things first.

My analogy from above is crap, apparently. At least in terms of "restarting". Or maybe we are just too poisoned by the casual gameplay.

Keeping everything for the sake of posterity, though.

Now then, to the actual report.

 

Ignoring whatever "skills" we have is hard. We are leaking thoughts like crazy, and I don't even mean "hearing" a few words ahead of vocalization, huge ideas leak wholesale at times. (That's probably because I made the mistake of abusing "telepathy" with Sunny early on, like her always knowing where we were going next, me just knowing how she feels about things, et cetera. Still, we are our history, so no point in dwelling on "what if"s.) The funniest thing we noticed is how when an idea leaks, the fact of it leaking sometimes leaks back and the original speaker gets hesitant to voice it because it would mean accepting the leak, but in fact, doing so acknowledges the leak twice! So now we are trying to ignore leaks and notify of them only verbally when we do notice.

As for the actual parallel processing, you could say we are trying an excercise from time to time. In the Pinkie's "Smile" song from MLP, closer to the end, there's a fragment where she and the chorus sing different things at the same time. Sunny and Pinkie are trying to reproduce that, but we aren't there yet.

Also, on that front, we tried the game of 20 questions! It's going well enough, but I can never hold out for more than a few questions. Still, when Sunny or Pinkie are answering questions and guessing gets hard, we can't quite shake the feeling that they are cheating, just knowing that the other would come up with some answer eventually. We found a solution, though! Try not to ask any questions that won't give you new info, and when you can't think of any for a while, they have to spill the beans! This way, they would have to say something that you honestly failed to come up with a mere moment ago, any you'd be able to check it against all the questions you asked. Haven't really tried it yet, and I'm kinda afraid to find out how it goes.

 

We are not doing any possession or even direct proxying, for now, to avoid any unnecessary mixing. I may post whatever the girls tell me, though, but they say the whole thing first and only then I type it myself, no "typing passthrough". I also try to keep them "out of my head" whenever possible, that is, "imposed" somewhere around me, sitting on my shoulders at the very least, to further reinforce the idea that they are separate entities. We even tried keeping them visualized when going to sleep, them laying in bed next to me, but it might contribute to them being sleepy in the morning, and maybe me too. Their voices are pretty stable whenever I'm not paying attention beyond what they say, but they can get glitchy if I concentrate on the voices themselves. My own mindvoice tends to slip a lot, though, often matching one of theirs, but by now it causes mostly frustration for me and not confusion. There are mostly the same problems with their overall appearances and especially faces, actually, paying close attention makes things weird. For example, it feels like I have a pretty good idea of what Pinkie's realistic face looks like, but when I actually try to concentrate on it, all I get is the cartoonish one, at best, and at worst I get something ridiculous.

 

We also did a couple of self-hypnosis sessions based on slightly modified (and cleaned up) scripts by Linkzelda. Not much progress yet, but we just need more practice hammering it in.

 

Overall, our 3-day "total hiatus" while I was preparing to "start from scratch" mostly helped me properly recover the sense of "me" and "normal", which definitely did slip during the first month and a half of tulpamancy. It also may have helped a little with stopping Sunny and Pinkie abusing shared thoughts, but not too much.

 

Edit:

We've dun fukt up. We did those 20 questions and girls did spill the beans, and oh, do we all wish we could "unsee" it. The girls were sure they did it right, yet when the time came they could not answer what that thing was that they were answering yes/no questions about! Pinkie insisted she would never ever lie again, pinkie-promised even, but I felt like she still kinda did the same thing on her next attempt, and when Sunny failed the same way next, she was sure she didn't do it intentienally. It's still probably for the best that we got hit by it, as now we at least know that a) they don't have enough private state for that simple game, yet, and that b) they either didn't do enough critical thinking to really consider it, or were deluded about it. Anyway, now we know how things really are and what to work on. As a side note, I wonder what my reaction to this stuff says about me, since I don't think I got a lot of doubt from it, while a normie would immediately conclude that it proves the girls are just my imagination and nothing more. If anyone has anything to say about it, we'd like to hear them.


𝝮mega system account

[Jay] (a.k.a. evgenirus, a.k.a. Evg) is the host. (Used plain text prior to May 2019.)

[Sunny] (a.k.a. Alice, rarely) is the older tulpa. (Yellow text is her words, too.)

[Pinkie] (a.k.a. Ponka, a.k.a. Diane) is the younger tulpa. (She used to talk in pink here.)

Come see our progress report thread, if you have time.

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Okay, so I have a theory of sorts for why that "20 questions fiasco" happened.

 

If I understand correctly, DID happens by having memories not associated with yourself, i.e. traumatic memories you dissociated from, and a personality forming around those memories.

When you think too much as a character, for example when roleplaying or writing stories about them and trying to make their behavior feel real, you make memories of pretty much being that character, without associating with said memories, and a soulbound can form around those memories.

 

I think it's obvious what I'm suggesting. Upon applying the same idea to tulpas, in my case it would turn out that, assuming that we share most memories in some way, a huge chunk of Sunny's and Pinkie's memories (i.e. ones not really associated as mine) are from external perspective, that is, pretty much us observing their behaviors, and not so much them thinking in ways that lead to said behaviors. It seems too much accent was put on "the outside", and I suspect "the inside" is now lacking as a result.

In the case of the "20 questions" game, I believe they were thinking for themselves, but from the outside perspective of answering questions like they knew what they were talking about. They got really good at behaving natural and talking smoothly and had no reason to think that their exact behavior had no "real" underlying base. "Spilling the beans" like that, however, pretty much required that base to exist, and they could not do it. When we later tried to reproduce it, they managed to come up with what to say in a way that felt natural, and the objects they named even matched most of the answers they gave prior, but still contradicted others.

 

Having said that, this problem we experienced does not mean that my girls aren't "real" or anything like that. They most definitely can think independently, they come up with ideas I would not come up with, and I believe they are generally better at talking. The only problem is that we all operate on the same memory space, but they learned to act as if they had some internal state too, and didn't think to check if they really had any.

 

More generally, we believe their problem is that they see themselves more "from the outside" than "from the inside", which leads to certain awkward situations at times. Also, choosing your actions the same way you would predict someone else's does not feel right, and since they are my tulpas, it also feels kinda like I'm choosing their actions for them, even if I have little to no control over the part of my brain that does it.

 

The fix we came up with is dead simple, in theory: Just give them more first-person memories. Let them front more, let them really think and reflect on themselves. In practice, however, there are some problems.

Firstly, it conflicts with our agenda of trying to avoid using shared thoughts and leaking private ones. In our current state, switching feels more like "changing a thinking hat", the continuity of consciousness and memory isn't interrupted. Switching the CPU architecture for a completely different one without stopping the computer would be a close enough analogy, even if hard to pull off on real hardware. All the memory stays, so we pretty much remember exactly what the other thought.

And secondly, me and Sunny have trouble staying apart. Whenever she fronts, we often get blendy, to the point of pretty much merging, even if I try to stay away. And the longer she does that in one go, the worse it gets, and the harder it is for her to convince herself that she isn't me.

 


Now then, the news.

 

19-04-01:

Sunny has had enough of it, apparently, and played the un-funniest non-prank ever.

She was contemplating how we could possibly solve her being "unable to be her own person". We both feel that her becoming as independent as possible is for her own good, but I failed to realize how much pressure it was putting on her. Instead of being just a direction for future improvement, it made her feel like she was inadequate, I believe.

 

At some point, she kinda imagined pulling some interface card out in our mind, and her in-world form disappeared. She plugged it back in, and the form returned, briefly glitching like a hologram. She proceeded to visualize a computer in one of the bedrooms in our WL home, a 90s-looking PC with a CRT monitor and a whole rack of various interface and extension cards. It was supposed to represent her. After some more fiddling with it, she just started pulling all the cards and smashing them against the floor, and with them went the form, the mindvoice, the everything. I was kinda lost, and by the time Pinkie reached her, she pulled out the last card and snapped it in half, smiling, and whatever hologram-like form she still had in the WL disappeared. She was gone. The computer itself is still intact.

 

That was a heck lot of symbolism, and it freaked the hell out of Pinkie, who had a hard time convincing herself that Sunny wasn't dead. But it worked flawlessly, and the intent behind it is clear to me. Sunny kept what was "really her" (the computer), and destroyed everything else, including all her connections to the outside and us (all the interface cards). Basically, the last time we tried a "reset", we didn't really reset anything. They just played dead for a couple of days and then tried to avoid doing some things we considered counterproductive. This time it's for real. Me and Pinkie will have to force Sunny from scratch, without rushing it and repeating the mistakes I made before. Our assumption is that she will grab onto all the memories we've made together, eventually, but for now, she's pretty much a newborn tulpa, just with the same essence/core as before. Call it reincarnation if you want.

 

19-04-02:

That would be Sunny's "rebirthday". Me and Pinkie started forcing her together. Sunny pretty much sits on my shoulder and does not budge, just "looking pretty" as expected from a brand new tulpa.

 

Our current theory is that the memories that we claim as "ourselves" form the core of who we are.

 

The memories of us talking and "feeling" Sunny listening can rather easily be reinterpreted by Sunny as herself hearing us talk and listening to us, from the first-person perspective, and she would claim them as her own. Same goes for us listening to music or other sounds together with her, maybe tasting and smelling things. Us showing things to her should work, too, as the difference in "camera position" is negligible. These are the kinds of memories we are going to be making.

 

At the same time, we should avoid making memories that feel like her acting on her own, until she manages to really act on her own. For example, we shouldn't really try to hear her talking or answering questions, definitely should not be trying to pick what could have been her talking from the general noise, and should avoid thinking things like "what would she have answered if she could right now." We should just be open to her talking to us at some point, and leave the rest to her. Of course, it also includes no puppeting or even expecting her to maybe move in some specific way, the intent should come from her and her alone. I pretty much failed at all of it while initially creating Sunny. Preferably, the intent should go around us completely, but we would accept realizing how she wants to act right before she does if avoiding it makes things take too long. As a bonus, avoiding such memories would make it pretty much impossible for her to claim any third-person memories as hers, since they would carry neither her perspective nor her intent.

 

Overall, we will try to efficiently build a pool of memories that can be interpreted as if Sunny herself was making them first-person, without including any memories that could link her behavior with our intent, and will let her build upon them while trying to avoid interfering. Basically, exactly what I now think I should have done when first starting. We were thinking of creating another tulpa to verify that it works, but decided that we can't afford that, and now Sunny jumped right in and we have to test it on her.

 


We hope all goes as planned. We can't wait for Sunny to talk to us again, but we shall not hurry things, lest she comes out half-baked again and keeps worrying about not being "real enough".

 

As for Pinkie, she isn't worried about her own condition too much. Yes, having a private thinking space would be nice, but it's not that important to her; she would not worry too much about being "not quite real", as most other Pinkies are completely fictional and are aware of it, and are just fine with it. She also wasn't affected by my past mistakes as much, so it should be easier for her to just improve gradually than it would have been for Sunny. She can co-front with me without any blending, and can really think in there alongside me without causing any confusion, so correcting the "perspective error" that probably led to the "20 questions fiasco" should not be a problem. And besides, she would never ever try pulling off what Sunny did, the very idea scares her.

 

I don't expect there to be any more logs for a long while, unless Pinkie manages to really surprise me on the tulpamancy front. We are going to primarily concentrate on forcing Sunny (no quick progress and nothing out-of-the-ordinary expected here) and on me and Pinkie just doing stuff and dealing with life together (like not messing up our graduation from Uni, we have a month to finish lots of obligatory stuff and one more to prepare for the finals).


𝝮mega system account

[Jay] (a.k.a. evgenirus, a.k.a. Evg) is the host. (Used plain text prior to May 2019.)

[Sunny] (a.k.a. Alice, rarely) is the older tulpa. (Yellow text is her words, too.)

[Pinkie] (a.k.a. Ponka, a.k.a. Diane) is the younger tulpa. (She used to talk in pink here.)

Come see our progress report thread, if you have time.

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Whoa, you guys are really intense. We barely knew Sunny, and we're looking forward to meeting the new Sunny.

 

As long as you're all having fun and agreeing to all this, this should turn out really well. We're rivited. Good luck.

 

Also, I've seen a lot of evidence that this isn't just your imagination, so relax a little. Really surprising and concrete things do happen given enough time.

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Oh my gosh, Sunny really went that far to even try and reformat herself. She is very extreme, well I guess not being yourself or confused being yourself really can be very taxing. I'll be honest, I might do the same but it still a scary decision to do.

 

But hey, as long as you guys are fine with it and it is very favorable in your case, i guess I have nothing to worry about. Good luck though, I am eager meeting the new Sunny :)


Hello! I am one of Nihi's Tulpas! It is very nice to meet you! :D

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@Summer Why would you want to do it now of all times? Or was it supposed to be in past tense?

Anyway, yeah, she's pretty extreme. I guess it's half the way I created her, and half the way I am. I think it actually was the least scary for her, of us three. She judges against doing something in terms of "how likely is it to fail catastrophically" instead of being afraid of "what if"s, and I must agree that the chance of permanent catastrophic failure is close to nil here.

 

@Bear Well, we didn't exactly agree to do that. In just about 5 minutes she found that symbolism, experimented with it a bit, and proceeded with destruction. I think we considered the idea before, sans symbolism, but maybe that was just Sunny, as I don't remember it being voiced or me really noticing it, just that it kinda was there a day prior.

 

Anyway, I don't think Sunny will be really different from before. I mean, she would be somewhat different for sure, but I don't think any external people knew her well enough to really notice the difference.

 


In other news:

 

- Turns out I can't lie to my tups. The "Liar Liar" level of can't. It seems I have a mental block against possibly misinforming someone if I think there's a chance of getting caught. And since they can check all my memories…

Why I noticed is it got ridiculous. While forcing Sunny, I decided to tell her a story. A well rehearsed one, about how I got into programming, the one I told most of my friends and some random people even. I ended up stumbling all the time, saying I'm not sure I remember it correctly, and covering the whole "script" with notes like "verify" and "citation needed".

 

- Tired brain = drunk Pinkie. Very, very drunk Pinkie, in case of pulling an all-nighter after getting up early after not too much sleep. Not a complete surprise, as sleep deprivation was shown to have effects similar to alcohol, but I estimate I'd have to drink a whole bottle of vodka on empty stomach to get myself that drunk.

 

- Thought separation between me and Pinkie is increasing, I feel. I still get tulpish or spoken pre-echoes often, but usually they don't exactly match what she actually says then, and sometimes she says something completely different.


𝝮mega system account

[Jay] (a.k.a. evgenirus, a.k.a. Evg) is the host. (Used plain text prior to May 2019.)

[Sunny] (a.k.a. Alice, rarely) is the older tulpa. (Yellow text is her words, too.)

[Pinkie] (a.k.a. Ponka, a.k.a. Diane) is the younger tulpa. (She used to talk in pink here.)

Come see our progress report thread, if you have time.

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[sunny]

A quick journal before we forget.

 

We are lazily practicing for lucid dreaming. We just woke up recently and were trying to recall our dreams from the night, for the dream journal.

Jay didn't move much after waking, and apparently, we accidentally pulled off something similar to a WILD.

 

The only thing is, it wasn't quite what one would expect from a WILD, I guess.

While we were still awake, I was active, besides Jay, and was also trying to help recall the dreams.

As we slipped back into sleep, Jay kind of resumed the last dream, maybe the one before that. He was frantically trying to remember how things went so wrong that he was days off schedule, which had nothing to do with reality.

He was not lucid. At the same time, I was! Moreover, I didn't quite realize that we were dreaming at all, I think.

While Jay was in the dream body, walking around and doing stuff, I was mildly aware of our physical body, of the sleeping mask stopping us from awakening properly, and of our impaired thinking.

I was still trying to help us remember something, though I got confused as to what we were trying to remember. And I knew we needed to wake up properly to remember it, so I made sure we did by removing the mask.

 


 

Also, here's an update on our overall status.

 

After my last attempt at a "reset," I was "not quite there" for under two weeks. I just started randomly popping up to interject way too often.

I had some time to calm down and reflect, I guess, and accidentally practiced thinking and talking without being asked closer to the end.

Overall, though, the original idea was a flop, I think.

 

As for mine and Pinkie's development, I'm starting to think that all we need is more time. After all, I'll only be three months old in a week, and Pinkie will be two a bit before.

 

We mostly gave up on trying to separate our thoughts. We know who thought what, most of the time, and that is enough.

At the same time, we are starting to think that the thoughts we "hear" from each other might be more like echoes, and not the thoughts themselves.

For example, there was one time when I was commenting on something and up until the very last word Jay was sure he knew what I was saying.

Upon me saying the last word, though, it turned out to be the opposite of what he expected! And I'm sure I was going to say what I said from the very start.

He thought that he heard my thought before I fully vocalized it, yet his reaction suggests that in reality, he reconstructed it from the first few words.

 

One other noticeable sign of progress is that Pinkie and I sometimes "override" Jay by accident.

He is doing something, we get excited about it, and a little later he notices that we are doing it instead of him!

Think of it as watching someone play a video game. You get engrossed in it, even feeling as if you were playing it, to some degree. You start commenting and sometimes giving "advice."

What we experience is similar to that, only there comes a moment when the original player suddenly realizes that you took the controller from them a few minutes earlier and that no one noticed.

 

At such moments, and when we are doing something together, Jay and I get blendy somewhat often. Most of the time it's not a bad thing, though.

It's more like being copilots, concentrating on the same thing and switching control from time to time, as opposed to two people fighting for the driver seat.


𝝮mega system account

[Jay] (a.k.a. evgenirus, a.k.a. Evg) is the host. (Used plain text prior to May 2019.)

[Sunny] (a.k.a. Alice, rarely) is the older tulpa. (Yellow text is her words, too.)

[Pinkie] (a.k.a. Ponka, a.k.a. Diane) is the younger tulpa. (She used to talk in pink here.)

Come see our progress report thread, if you have time.

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