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Ashley

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Anyone else have this problem? We view it on our phone and two computers with no issue.

 

Nope, they all displayed fine for me. Maybe Jean-luc has some weird extension that blocks more stuff than we do, because we have Disconnect and uBlock and it still worked.

Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.

Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.

My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us about tulpamancy stuff there.

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But belief-based switching isn't just a cheap trick. Pervasively throughout tulpamancy, it seems the brain wants to create the reality you believe in and will gradually modify it's structure and function to accommodate you. And that's the next best thing to legitimate magic.

I'm not sure what your overall point was here - but this is an excellent description of the placebo effect. To be clear, I don't believe anyone in this conversation is arguing that placebo has no effect. Pharmaceutical drugs are tested against placebos precisely because they do have an effect. But those drugs that are found to be no better than placebo are discarded as a cheap trick

 

Pain intensity has a clear directionality -- up and down. Headmate A<->Headmate B does not have as clear a directionality; they are both just people and not fundamentally distinct types of being. So the directionality in a switching drug would be in difficulty -- up and down. For headmates who absolutely can't switch in, this might be a useful training tool, at least once. But it would reduce the difficulty of switching in both directions, making it harder for either headmate to hold onto the front securely. The blending and disorientation could be vicious.

The directionality wouldn't be about who switched with whom. I've heard of people switching after five-day possession sessions* - that's a long time, and both you and Lumi didn't need that. So we don't have to say "Swallow this pill and thoughtform A will switch with thoughtform B." We can instead say "Swallow this pill and switching will be noticeably easier to achieve."

 

*a part of me is afraid this only worked because the thoughtforms involved expected it to work

I live in a castle and have two tulpas, Kanade-chan and Uncannyfellow

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I think expectations are a part of it, but at some point you know it work for real. Like when someone talked to Bear and I was switched in. I expected Bear to take front and answer but when he didn't I realized he was dormant and I had to think for myself. I gave a very short answer and excused myself.

 

[Ashley] That happened to me too, only Bear was way back and didn't respond, so I handled it. When he's in tulpa position he can jump to co-front and handle these things.

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But those drugs that are found to be no better than placebo are discarded as a cheap trick

 

Note that there is nothing to differentiate placebo from drug when it comes to tulpamancy, because it all takes place in your own subjective consciousness/mind. I mean, aside from actual drugs of course. The only aspect of "Both of you believing it worked" there is to worry about is making sure your methodology is completely replicable and consistent, and that you really believe it in the first place, I guess. Reminder that our system still uses that method where we visualize ourselves moving out of/into the body while switching, though we've switched from "energy, colored silhouettes" to mostly just our actual forms, the energy thing can still help.

 

But in some sense, all of tulpamancy could be compared to the placebo effect in that way simply because it's done by the power of the mind and no physical means, and doing so tends to give the implication it's fake which I established in Cat's thread (and many other places in the past) is not a thing when it comes to experiences. No real or fake, only the experience of the experience.

Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.

Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.

My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us about tulpamancy stuff there.

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But in some sense, all of tulpamancy could be compared to the placebo effect in that way simply because it's done by the power of the mind and no physical means

I'm not hostile to dualism, but I'm also not gonna stake my entire philosophy of the mind on dualism being correct. That being said, I firmly believe that even if our brains are antennas to the soul, or eldritch thought monsters from another dimension, that 1) brain states would still map to mental experiences, they just wouldn't be the cause of mental experiences, and 2) something measurable is still going on in the soul/eldritch thought monster, even if it's not physical in the way we're used to thinking about it

 

You've mentioned measurement before, and it's certainly true that many of the things we expect to come with switching can't be measured externally. But switching, or at least the things we expect to come with it, can be measured internally. I imagine that successfully switching would mean I could beat my host at possession arm wrestle - from the outside, my host winning and me winning looks exactly the same, but for us, it's all the difference in the world. It's a clear cut and easily measurable goal, even if only three thoughtforms in the entire world are capable of measuring it

 

There's some confusion about what the words objective and subjective mean for the simple reason that they each have two meanings. We talk about subjective vs objective experiences (roughly, qualia vs the material world), but we also talk about objective facts vs subjective opinions (cats have fur vs cats are cute). Thus, both of these statements can be true:

1) Me enjoying listening to Arch Enemy is a subjective experience, that is to say, the enjoyment happens in my mind and not outside it

2) It is an objective fact that I enjoy listening to Arch Enemy, that is to say, it's not up for debate, it is simply the truth

I can't see a way to make your measurement argument coherent without rejecting point 2. You'd have to be a hardcore eliminative materialist to do that, in which case your seeming rejection of materialism is even stranger

I live in a castle and have two tulpas, Kanade-chan and Uncannyfellow

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I can't see a way to make your measurement argument coherent without rejecting point 2.

 

I have a measurement argument? You might be inferring too much, or inferring the argument some tend to have when supposing the same thing about only your experience mattering. I'm sure to some extent it could all be measurable, but as I said in Cat's thread, even with future super-technology, we could never prove experiences real or fake - not to the person having them. They experienced what they experienced how they experienced it, and their experience is also (maybe separately) what they believe they experienced. The latter can and does change usually in small ways, or in the worst case scenario, someone convincing themselves tulpas were never real and deciding all their previous experiences with their tulpas were them lying to themselves.

 

My only argument is there is no right or wrong to experience, there is only the experience. In the ways that may tie the mental to physical, you might interpret the experiences "wrong" (but on a real deep level, basically every way the brain works is nothing like how we experience it anyways), but how you interpreted them was your experience, your subjective reality. It's not unchangeable, but it's also not applicable to say it was right or wrong.

 

Switching is the same thing, as is basically all of tulpamancy except to some extent skills like visualization (and its clarity). If your argument is "Actually you could believe you switched but when compared with super-future-technology scans of someone who really did, it seems you didn't" - like, okay I guess lol. The end goal of switching is to satisfy the host and tulpas, and while we wouldn't want them not having "the full experience", we go to reasonable lengths to explain what success should look like and instilling the fear that they may never be doing it right in people is a waste of time and counterproductive, usually.

Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.

Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.

My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us about tulpamancy stuff there.

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We have seen instances of someone doubting another's switching, like you have to prove you switched. It's wrong on a lot of levels to do that.

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