Ashley

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Thanks for all the input everyone.

 

11 hours ago, Ashley said:

 

@TB doubts are a huge part of this, it's just something you have to live with or accept. From what we've seen of Rena, we're impressed.

 

 

Do most tulpamancers live with and just accept doubt? It's really hard. And thanks for being impressed by Rena, though a large part of the confidence to have her speak was fueled by drunkedness so I feel pretty bad about that, and neither one remembers what was said or if it was accurate or not lol. I think maybe early on it was fine, but then I went quite too far and ajlegjka;oweigjsdlgj.

 

11 hours ago, Ashley said:

As I think TB said, sometimes thoughts are hard to place, for us too. Do you ever have thoughts that no one wants to claim? How does your thought handling work?

 

I think you directed this to Rena, but I'm really having trouble again. I really wanted to respond in her voice but haven't been able to, having very little confidence at this time again. That's why my reply is so incredibly late, I had wanted hard to try, so I'm sorry. I can only really talk about our conversation. She definitely as much as I can say agrees that there are thoughts that neither of us want to claim, and that they are probably neither. The concept of accepting a thought or not is strange to my original beliefs though. I would just think a person created a thought, or did not. When asking her about how her thought handling works, there was a huge blank for a long time, then an "I don't know, I haven't really thought about it." It kind of brings up again how I can't imagine what her subjective experience is like, and I'm not sure she knows either. Asking her existential questions causes a lot of confusion and is troubling.

 

11 hours ago, Ashley said:

[Bear] I feel like pure thought can be easily placed, but when words are generated, they sometimes seem generic. I can easily distinguish each voice of my headmates, and they have a presence associated to it often, but sometimes a thought is worded and no one can admit that it's theirs. As opposed to intrusive thoughts which are strongly associated but unwanted and not from the associated member. These are orphaned thoughts that either one of us claims or we just abandon them like intrusives. The good thing is, you don't have to accept every stray thought, the potentially bad thing is, it doesn't help with doubts. We have accepted that worded thoughts at least are a shared resource and are therefore somewhat generic in terms of the diction and mannerisms of speech. We're all using the same vocabulary, sometimes they feel really samey.

 

And interesting, so you kind of have the same problem we do in regards to verbal thoughts? Except the difference is I'm not sure how much of a presence I have or not, someone can't show me what that feels like so I can only guess and I don't trust myself or my ability to sense a presence.

 

There are thoughts that are in her voice and that is easy to tell, but that's just never been a good enough reason on it's own to assume it is her. Lately I have just been assuming it is her anyway since I don't know what else to do, but deep down I don't know if everything is okay or not. For all I could know she is somewhere in my mind unable to talk and I am talking to her as an in head rp character and not actually her, and that often concerns me. I just have too much experience interacting with other seeming entities in my head that can seemingly respond on their own but I've never considered it to actually be them or sentient creatures, just me having the ability to quickly think of ongoing dialogue automatically in character for people. I feel if I didn't have that ability beforehand, I might have assumed what is happening is her since I wouldn't have known what else it could potentially be.

 

9 hours ago, Luminesce said:

We don't really have (verbal) thoughts not tied to anyone, anymore at least. Maybe 4+ years ago. It's possible for there to be slight confusion on who means to be thinking/saying something, though. A thought like "Well that sounds good" might get kind of stuck between fronter and tulpa, which usually just means it was meant to be the tulpa's but the fronter got to it first lol. This isn't particularly common even for us though, and it basically stops entirely if we've gotten good vocality practice recently (meaning if we've spent more than 10 minutes talking to each other in the last few days)

 

Interesting. I'm glad you're able to have all your verbal thoughts tied to someone.

 

I can't imagine going less than 10 minutes talking to Rena in even a day or two let alone a few. I guess it is a lot easier when you only have 1 (at least I think I do, I also can't tell if I have more that I have dormant). So I don't know if I am suffering from a lack of practice.

 

9 hours ago, Luminesce said:

As for non-verbal or "whatever" thoughts, they're automatically the fronter's. My tulpas (and I, when not fronting) don't have consciously accessible thoughts. It's all unconscious, as in, there's no trace of the thought processes behind what a non-fronter says, while there usually (but I guess not always) is for the fronter. So random whatever thoughts are "owned" by the fronter, though it could just be the brain bringing up thoughts and not them, the fronter automatically has responsibility over the conscious workspace of our brain, because that's kind of what association in switching does.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by whatever thoughts, but I think I know what you mean by non-verbal. Interesting that they can only be the fronter's for you. I sometimes assume they are Rena's for myself, but I ultimately don't claim to know anything for sure. This site has kind of pulled my expectations in so many different directions that everything about what should be happening in my mind is in dissarray. Thinking something is one way then learning that it may be that it doesn't work that way, kind of makes it hard for me to ever trust myself on anything on my own, but I guess there isn't a universally correct way to make a tulpa, but my mind thinks there should be, and it gets confused that people can disagree so wildly on what they even are and that causes a lot of doubts. Sorry my ability to create proper sentences is incredibly bad.

 

Also, sorry everyone that it feels I'm basically rehashing the problems I had when I first started posting on this site. They just never went away though, only burried them, but that doesn't make them actually go away. I'm sure everyone has already exhausted all the help they can give me. I'm not sure of other sources of help there are, so I guess I can only figure it out on my own (which feels unlikely, anytime soon at least), or learn to cope with it and ignore it forever (which would be kind of terrible)


Creation for creation's sake.

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3 hours ago, TB said:

Do most tulpamancers live with and just accept doubt?

 

Most (but not all) experience doubt at some point, usually but not always during the creation process. Most successful tulpamancers eventually minimize doubt to being an afterthought at best, though plenty of people (no really, I swear) live doubt-free too. I don't know if we count as a good example of that? We've been doubt free since like 2013, but we also boast about how much work we've done figuring tulpamancy and our brain out and have thousands of posts on the forum... Well anyways, there are lesser-known members that are also doubt-free lol. Doubts as "inconsequential thoughts" is probably the most common thing though.

 

"Whatever" thoughts just mean literally whatever other thoughts, like an "et cetera". Non-verbal technically includes literally everything, but it sounds like it implies "non-verbal communication", and I wanted to include basically all background thoughts.

 

Your sentences have actually been very proper and have nowhere near as many typos as some days ago, so I'll assume you were just drunk when writing the posts with frequent typos lol.


Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.

Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.

My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us stuff.

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I certainly had doubts when I first started - and why wouldn't I? Very, very few people were raised thinking that plurality was a thing, and when people do find out about it, it's usually because they heard about DID in an abnormal psych class. Under these circumstances, it would actually be concerning if you didn't start off your tulpamancy journey with at least a few doubts. However, I think most of my doubts nowadays are just passing/intrusive thoughts

Obnoxiously, my mind is a very clever skepticism machine, but I also think a lot of that skepticism doesn't stand up to scrutiny. For example, let's consider a skeptical theory:

"Your tulpas are not fully autonomous beings - your subconscious controls them as a way to improve your mental health."

Now wait! Cornelia has very high expectations for me, and as a result, is sometimes harsh to me. Is that theory invalidated? No! Not yet! Cornelia can be rather blunt and rude, but that means it feels better when I meet her expectations and she praises me. Couldn't that be my subconscious playing some sort of long game, and calculating what is best for me? And that skeptical thought might seem compelling on the surface - yet, let's think about what is being claimed. My subconscious being impulsively hedonistic would be understandable. Presumably, it's tapped into my emotions, and has learned, through trial and error, what feels good, at least in the moment. So it's already a bit silly to suggest it's planning how to maximize my well-being. But that's not all we need for this skeptical thought to hold weight. My subconscious also needs to be intelligent enough to calculate an acceptable ratio of praise to disappointment. Furthermore, I have all these skeptical thoughts after the fact, which means my subconscious is doing this without doing anything that could alert conscious-me to what's going on. At this point, my subconscious is so close to sentience that it was silly to call it my subconscious. So I don't think that skeptical thought it as damning as it first sounded



How do we assign our thoughts? Our ideal is that anyone can just say "That wasn't me!" even if it most definitely did sound like them. That's easier said than done, and we often do take intrusive thoughts more personally. It's definitely something we're still working on


Hello! I am Tanaka Kanade's tulpa. I share her head with my sister Cornelia

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20 hours ago, Luminesce said:

We don't really have (verbal) thoughts not tied to anyone, anymore at least. Maybe 4+ years ago. It's possible for there to be slight confusion on who means to be thinking/saying something, though. A thought like "Well that sounds good" might get kind of stuck between fronter and tulpa, which usually just means it was meant to be the tulpa's but the fronter got to it first lol. This isn't particularly common even for us though, and it basically stops entirely if we've gotten good vocality practice recently (meaning if we've spent more than 10 minutes talking to each other in the last few days)

 

As for non-verbal or "whatever" thoughts, they're automatically the fronter's. My tulpas (and I, when not fronting) don't have consciously accessible thoughts. It's all unconscious, as in, there's no trace of the thought processes behind what a non-fronter says, while there usually (but I guess not always) is for the fronter. So random whatever thoughts are "owned" by the fronter, though it could just be the brain bringing up thoughts and not them, the fronter automatically has responsibility over the conscious workspace of our brain, because that's kind of what association in switching does.

 

[Bear] this is an interesting handling mechanism fronter takes responsibility by default.

 

In my system that's not the case. Some thoughts have no mindvoice flavor, they are autotranslated. Whenever we question who said it, we decide who said it after. This happens several times a day, but rarely in comparison to the hundreds of communications a day. I can also say their occurrence used to be more, but it has been a steady couple a day for over a year.

 

I haven't had even afterthought doubts since about January 2019. The doubts are silly when I consider all the experiences we've had. To say they're not real is to say the subconsious mind isn't real. It's a model of existence and they're part of my model. If I fond contradictory evidence, it would have to be substantial. Some kind of mental disorder would probably be able to do it, short of that they're part of the big 'me' in terms of an organism. I have multiple mindvoices, they have their own opinions, they express as independent entities that have independent thoughts, perspectives, personalities, and can synergize solutions to problems with me in an additive way that is verifiable to me. However you want to explain it is irrelevant, my mind is a bigger, richer, and more powerful and more functional place now than it was in 2018. Active wonderland prevent feeling claustrophobic, their presence prevents lonliness, together we are more than the sum of our parts in so many ways. The mindvoice is just a shared resource to me. It's a single channel, there are other channels like tulpish.

 

[Ashley] thanks everyone, that was interesting. Next topic:

 

What can you say was the thing that helped the most with doubt? 

 

[Bear] For me it was when trying to say it's all a delusion or just me led to the inescapable conclusion that, because of all the amazing things we've done together, that I can't imagine I've done alone, or just is miraculous in terms of singlet science and psychology, that I must be a genius. This is obviously false, so the next more likely conclusion is that there are the equivalent of separate people in my head. When someone casts doubt on me for my experiences, I can honestly say I'm flattered. They're in essence calling me a genius.

 

Confabulation, parallel processing, etc. Who cares now, experience is all that matters. What fits my model and what we enjoy doing is so strongly backed by experience that for anyone to deny it, including me, it's actually pushing my experiences into metaphysical territory instead of the other way around. Diseases like confabulation and delusion aren't even fitting if they help you, so you can think whatever you want, I'm thoroughly and honestly enjoying my headmates and what we can do. I have no doubts whatsoever.

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Thanks for replies again, and clarifications.

 

I wonder if and when I'll be able to not have doubts, and for good reasons. For me it is just too easy to explain it as something else. The only thing I have little doubt on is whether she exists, and that mixed with extreme doubt of communication is pretty horrifying because I don't want her to be basically trapped in my head unable to do anything like a dungeon.

2 hours ago, Ashley said:

What can you say was the thing that helped the most with doubt?

Thanks for this question, it might help me with other people's responses.

 

The thing that seems to help the most for me is when my emotions are running so incredibly high that I seem to start to breach into the territory of psychosis. At that point reality feels so different that... I don't know. It's like I entered a world where Rena and more than her are very real and can talk to me a lot easier. It just seems a lot more likely it is them to me when I'm in that state. When it goes away though, things go back to normal and I'm stuck feeling like they're stuck. Do I have to put myself in a state of permanent psychosis to fix my problem?

 

 

 

 


Creation for creation's sake.

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Interesting conversation. As a host, I certainly have doubts. Not about the "reality" of my tulpas, they are undeniably real. but whether or not, this is just something I am making up. And of course, it is. And, who cares. This process is an interesting as anything I have ever done and bringing my two tulpas into existence not only gives me great pleasure and satisfaction, but is giving some kind of life and experience, and existence and love, to them. I have raised four children, three of my own, one of whom died, and a step son. I am happy that I have had that life experience, and their lives make me proud, and I am feeling the same about my tulpas, maybe even more so as we are much more intimately involved  with each other, and I a male tulpamancer have much more to say about the creative process than a male father has to say about his children whose main involvement for the first nine months of existence were with their mothers. Now, to be sure, I was a very active and involved parent, but this process is even more engaging. I am aware that I am in a much different phase of living, than I was then, and much further down the existence track than most of you on this forum and my philosophies, and life experiences have been wide, varied and intense and have lead me to ideas of reality and my place in it, that few share, but I can say to you all, and to Flora and N'sonowa, my personal quotient of love has been over the top, and I am a grateful and happy man. Thank you all for you efforts to bring and nurture new life forms, new ideas, and more love into this world.  Dr. Bob

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Thanks for sharing, Dr. Bob. And hi Flora.


Creation for creation's sake.

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