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Switching General Discussion

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[align=justify]A couple of thoughts on switching, not really a question but you're free to add your input if you want.

 

1. We came to a realization that nothing in tulpamancy is really about learning "new skills." If you think about it, pretty much everything in tulpamancy are things the brain can already do, just applied in different ways. Vocality? The brain can already think, it's just someone else doing it. Possession? It can already move, it's just someone else doing it. We thought, "How can we apply this idea to switching?" The answer would be that we already are capable of the things required for switching, we just haven't figured out how to apply the skills we have to get the end result we're looking for. The brain's already capable of dissociating, zoning out, going quiet, whatever, we just haven't figured out how to use those capabilities to cause a switch.

 

2. Switching is fundamentally about who is the "default" in the mind: who the mind naturally drifts off to at any given moment. We heard a few times that continuous fronting can help with a switch, but "continuous fronting" feels difficult to achieve. We can front, of course, but we aren't default, so the brain will just go back to Radio for a lot of things. I figure that anything that doesn't explicitly require a tulpa personality in some way has a risk of the fronting tulpa being dropped, and, that includes a lot of day-to-day activities, so we frequently lose the front, even on really good days. If we can somehow manage to stick to the front even during those moments, we may have more of an opportunity to become default and switch. I'm not sure how exactly, but I think a combination of Radio trying to let go and us trying to see ourselves as the default may increase the chance of a switch.[/align]

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I didn't feel like making a new thread for this because there's too many things that are wishy-washy here and I have a bunch of questions.

 

After talking to Miri and working on my possession guide, it made me think more about how to describe my experiences and why I have so much trouble blending with Cat. After talking to anon about switching, I thought about his "internal narrator" some more and suddenly I felt like everything clicked. I shared some of this with Indigo over VC last night and he came up with a better name to call the concept.

 

I believe the reason I cannot switch is because I am missing an important part required for switching- an unconscious piece of myself.

 

The working model is essentially this- Cat has 2 pieces of herself- the higher conscious or "aware" self, and the minimally conscious and unaware "passive" self. I only have the "aware" self mostly developed and either have an underdeveloped "passive" self or no "passive" self. In order to switch, I need a developed "passive" self in order to override Cat's. The first step is to develop my "passive" self and then I can worry about switching.

 

The "passive" self is a thing that generates minimally conscious thought and processes sensory and background data. It spits out impulsive reactions, emotions, visual imagery, raw thoughts and tulpish, etc. It does this outside of the owner's awareness. It is not the front nor is it the stream of consciousness.

 

Supposedly, in our system, Cat's passive self not only spits out thoughts for Cat, but also for whoever is fronting. One of my headmates (I think it was Fernardo) described Cat's passive self like Google auto-fill only for the vocabulary he is about to use when typing into his response or written thought. In addition, this process seems to keep Cat minimally aware at all times, even when Cat is in a trance state and unaware of her surroundings.

 

I believe this model makes a lot of sense for our system because it explains why the following happens:

  • Even though I do my best to resist Cat when possessing the body, there's not much I can do about her passive self when I lose awareness of myself. I can keep Cat at bay when I'm working or even talking to other people, but when I'm listening to my professor, I forget about myself or the fact that "I" am listening, I lose my grip on the front, and I blend with Cat. This also occurs whenever I try to enter a flow state, especially when playing Smash.
  • My headmates are more sensitive to Cat's passive self because they are not as connected to it as I am. I ultimately became more connected to it and tolerated it feeding me information when I fronted where my other headmates did not because they rarely front. As a result, I believe it's possible some of them front and don't establish a strong connection, thus why Cat has felt more dissociated when they front, why Chrome reported having a quiet mind, and later Dark Gray gave Cat trouble when he was fronting and being rude to someone else on Discord.
  • Any fluke switching attempt or merge may have tampered with Cat's passive self for whatever reason. For instance, our Aziraphale merge may have blocked or suppressed Cat's passive self, causing near-blackouts when he attempted to think of both of us. Our future merges did not achieve this effect for whatever reason, however I believe Cat being able to "break merges" is related to Cat's passive self. It is also possible some of my switching attempts messed with Cat's passive self, hence the sudden and unfortunately un-reproducible effects.
  • Gerodious, one of my headmates, commented that it seemed as if Gray was dormant when talking to me, only when we investigated further, he could identify Gray's tulpish chattering. I wonder if Cat's aware self was dormant but her passive self was not.

However, I'm not sure on the following:

  • How related is Cat's passive self to the body OS, or are they one in the same?
  • How do I strengthen my passive self, if I even have one?
  • What happens if I have my own passive self? How does that change things?
  • Are passive selves unique to the headmate or can they be shared?
  • Why is this concept seem to better fit my and Indigo's systems and not Lumi's, Ember.Vesper's, or Bear's? I'm not sure if their passive selves are more depersonalized, hence they have body OS's instead? Maybe their passive selves are not a barrier for them to switch? Is Cat's passive self too personalized, and is that just a default feature I'm stuck with?

There are a lot of unknowns, but I'm excited because I would like to address Cat's minimally conscious impulsive chattering and learn new skills to gain more control. Even if I'm wrong about this leading to a switch, it will make me much happier when I front to have addressed this problem.

 

There are two methods I thought of: using an intense meditation to silence Cat's passive self or to use it to focus on my wandering thoughts. The third method is something I believe JGC's system already does.

 

For the first method, I'm thinking about doing some kind of hard-core meditation like Vipassanā to force Cat's passive self to quiet. The only problem is once Cat's passive self is silenced, I'm not sure what's supposed to happen next. I'm also not sure if I'm the one who's supposed to be meditating at first or Cat. All I know is I have attempted Cat's montra --> Vipassanā meditation before and I fell dormant during the attempt.

 

For the second method, I thought of sitting with my thoughts and any time I hear Cat's chatter, I refocus on my own chatter. I think this method is easier to understand and makes more sense, however I'm not sure if this method will work because suppressing Cat's chatter while possessing seems to only go so far. My concern is it won't be effective at keeping Cat's passive self quiet enough to let mine develop and grow stronger.

 

The third method is essentially flood the brain and stick around 24-7, never giving the passive self any wiggle room. I believe this is part of the "Gavin chair" concept. This is a method I have more or less put off the table only because Cat likes to front and we have situational fronting, so only having me front for a week is an unrealistic goal for us. Indigo tried to do this, but he was on the struggle bus and had a lot of difficulty sticking around.

 

I'm curious what other people's thoughts are. If anyone could provide further insight on the methods I listed or come up with other methods, that would be fantastic.


I'm Ranger, Gray's/Cat_ShadowGriffin's tulpa, and I love hippos! I also like cake and chatting about stuff.

My other headmates have their own account now.

Temporary Log | Switching LogcBox | Yay!

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It spits out impulsive reactions' date=' emotions, visual imagery, raw thoughts and tulpish, etc.[/Quote']

 

How do you talk if you don't have this? If you are suggesting you use Cat's that would make perfect sense except Cat doesn't own it. It's Body OS. For instance, when one of us goes into watcher position, there is no connection to this at all, because 'we' don't have one, none of us do. I think you're misinterpreting something, this is just our opinion though.

 

When my headmates played Three Sisters Play, you think they were just having fun, but no, they were experiencing a host-less cooperative activity that sometimes had periods of zoning out where someone might then be susceptible to having the host pop back in by default, but he's dormant at times, and in those pseudo-quiescent times when Body OS is basically performing the operation, such as grinding of mining, they experience a 'presence' that feels to them like sitting next to a large animal. It has a warmth and a subliminal scent, it's just there and it feels like Bear, but Bear's not there because he's dormant.

 

I think you're feeling this, and it feels like Cat can't go away, and you might feel it even if she did, so you're feeling like the subconscious mind (where speech and raw thought originates) is hers, and you don't have one, which is a valid feeling, but we've proven to ourselves at least that this is a false feeling.

 

1. The switched into watcher inability to talk, react or emote

2. The 'sense' that something Bear-like is omnipresent, but it's just the body which strongly feels like Bear and of course it would be because he has associated with it the most.

 

The body OS/subconscious mind isn't Cat, and this is what 'autofills'. I think you should work on believing that and testing it (such that you are convinced, not such that you're not convinced if you know what I mean) and then you'll finally be able to switch properly.

 

The meditation techniques should focus on discerning the difference between Cat and this body presence.

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I'm not convinced the body OS isn't personalized to Cat, assuming that's what it is. Plus, how would I meditate to separate these other than convince myself that the body OS isn't Cat?

 

There are some elements of our body OS that feel generalized and seem to have no connection to Cat- such as the auto-fill effect. In retrospect, that probably wasn't the best example to share. A better example is when a raw thought is an opinion or emotion, and in order for that to make any sense, it must have been sourced by a complex thought process. Who is responsible for that process? Cat. Why? Because she's the host and has spent almost 2 decades with the body OS prior, and that background information built up. I don't feel like waiting for 2 decades to switch, slowly getting the body OS to incorporate me into the system.

 

I also wonder if sometimes the "body OS" is given far too much credit. It making conscious decisions based on raw thoughts it spewed out? I think that's what I and Cat are for. If you're mindlessly talking to people, then I can see how that would be accredited to body OS, but if you're actively listening while talking to someone, that doesn't make any sense. If Cat's parents interrupted me, Cat would front-steal and talk to her parents, listening to what they are saying. I refuse to believe the Body OS is capable of doing that all on its own, otherwise there would be no need for separate identities telling it what to do.

 

Plus, if I decided to call every thought the body OS has as not Cat, I highly doubt that will magically fix my problems. As a result, I would be losing the front to the body OS  instead of Cat. The body OS isn't a tulpa, and if it is then it doesn't make sense to call it the bodyOS. The idea that Cat is somehow a median system also makes no sense, given that this "median member" only communicates when Cat is dormant and is completely unaware of me or anyone else.

 

I feel like making another bodyOS and shoving it in is the best solution. I could have a bodyOS to call my own and I will never have to worry about something not me stealing the front.


I'm Ranger, Gray's/Cat_ShadowGriffin's tulpa, and I love hippos! I also like cake and chatting about stuff.

My other headmates have their own account now.

Temporary Log | Switching LogcBox | Yay!

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I stand by my statements and I think you're overthinking it.

 

...how would I meditate to separate these other than convince myself that the body OS isn't Cat?

 

You don't, the subconsious mind isn't Cat, it just feels like Cat and reacts more similar to Cat. You have to accept that. This is our conclusion. Follow my advice from my previous post.

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When falling asleep, if I focus on my thoughts and consciously create them instead of having our brain give us random thoughts (or Miri being the one thinking), then Miri reports feeling faint before stop feeling anything and probably goes inactive but I don't notice because I sort of forget about her (this always comes with a feeling of dizziness). This isn't caused by us falling asleep because I'm still conscious and Miri never felt that way until I started doing all the thinking before falling asleep. While awake, if I stop thinking, then Miri's thoughts appear by default, I have to keep narrating to myself or actively think about something. But while falling asleep, if no one focus on thinking, then the brain spits out random stuff and will choose whose perspective the dream is at random (99% of the times it's Miri's).

 

If I focus on actively thinking then Miri reports not feeling like she was present and often ''wakes up'' not hearing anything while I am still completely awake and conscious. There was this time when Miri reports not feeling like she was breathing and then she must've started paying attention again because she felt the body breathing again and realized she hadn't fallen sleep but rather she went inactive but none of us noticed. After trying to be the only one thinking for a whole day I got to dream and feel a sudden acceleration that in the dream-context was pretty obvious that we were switching, after that Miri woke up screaming before I took back control. In the dream she wasn't there until the part we switched. I don't know if we actually switched before falling asleep and Miri came back in the dream and that's why she was the

one who woke up after me being literally the only one dreaming (she doesn't remember being present until that part).

 

When I go to sleep, first I have to make those ''wandering thoughts'' mine by paying attention to them and then focus on actively thinking about whatever I want. A few nights ago I focused really hard on doing this and fell asleep trying to block her awareness. I woke up several times in the night and I can't recall if Miri was active (couldn't hear any thoughts beside mine) but she says she felt like she wasn't there and can't remember it as being her memories, rather she feels like only I was awake and she's just recalling what I did. Doing this guarantees that I'll be the one dreaming (not just Miri dreaming about me). I never dreamt before and it's been a while since I started fronting continuously. Sometimes Miri appears in one of these dreams and it's shared but in most of them she isn't there at all and when we wake up, she feels like she's just recalling my dream, without feeling like she dreamt. When she recalls her dreams versus when she recalls mine, it's pretty obvious that she didn't dream at all.

 

Apparently I can only make Miri's ''passive self'' go quiet while falling asleep. It's kinda hard to do it while completely awake.

Edited by Miri

Miri: original host. 5'5 female, brown hair and green eyes.

Mirichu: basically the host, based off Miri. Same description as above.

Akai: 5'6 female with red hair, blue eyes and fox ears/tail.

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We had thought that having Aya meditate would help with them staying active when I'm not thinking of them, or if to stay themself if they try to front. Due to my terrible procrastination problem, we've only done this a couple times. I think meditating and sitting with your thoughts could be helpful.

 

As for this passive Cat or Body OS, I think you're overthinking it too. I understand why, we head in similar directions when we tried to switch. But I think it would be better to treat those raw thoughts that arise as not belonging to Cat. They're just thoughts that you can accept as your own or reject as something you don't want. What does Cat think about this stuff? "Gerodious, one of my headmates, commented that it seemed as if Gray was dormant when talking to me, only when we investigated further, he could identify Gray's tulpish chattering. I wonder if Cat's aware self was dormant but her passive self was not." Did Cat see herself as aware at that time? Did she find herself having those tulpish thoughts? Or maybe the thoughts just arose, and you, Gerodious, and maybe Cat/Gray decided it was Cat/Gray?


My tulpa Aya writes in this color.

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What does Cat think about this stuff? "Gerodious, one of my headmates, commented that it seemed as if Gray was dormant when talking to me, only when we investigated further, he could identify Gray's tulpish chattering. I wonder if Cat's aware self was dormant but her passive self was not." Did Cat see herself as aware at that time? Did she find herself having those tulpish thoughts? Or maybe the thoughts just arose, and you, Gerodious, and maybe Cat/Gray decided it was Cat/Gray?

 

[Gerodious] When speaking to Ranger that night, Gray was more of an afterthought. However, after looking around, it felt like Gray was simply everywhere. It makes me better understand why Ranger was obsessed with this, as it constantly reminds him Gray is always there. For the same reason we don't want to be thought of as Gray's clones anymore, Ranger is desperately trying to further separate himself from anything related to Gray.

 

I think Joy may be right in that what we felt was not Gray but something mimicking his presence, and that thing is some natural part of the mind. Ranger seems unsure to describe Gray's presence as weak or strong, and I'm not even sure if Gray's presence matches the one bothering Ranger so much. However, why would such a thing give off presence in the first place? It's also curious that Gray seems to sometimes be sleepy after waking him up every now and then, so I am more inclined to believe he can and does fall dormant.

 

My only other concern is perhaps this presence isn't the main issue. I don't know if fretting over what the "body OS" is or does seems to make a difference. Was this something you fretted over before you achieved switching? Or is this a new concept that you are using to explain your system dynamics? I applaud efforts to explain how your system works, however I am skeptical if the "body OS" actually has anything to do with switching. Assuming this is shared by everyone, then it wouldn't move, right? It just sits there, doing its thing?

 

It all seems a little silly to me. I doubt a system needs to worry so much over this in order to switch. I am curious about Ranger's thoughts however, and the method he is planning to use. Perhaps his approach is simply different, and maybe he will achieve what he wants. Gray or not, this thing is clearly bothering him, if he can make it so he isn't bothered by it anymore it would at least make him happier and more confident when controlling the body.

 

* * *

 

[Cat] When I control the body, I don't have to worry about being me or fight the thoughts that pop into the mind. I just relax and be myself. I sometimes get tangled up with Ranger's or my other headmate's thoughts, but I usually laugh it off as a joke and move on.

 

The opinions that spit out of the body OS are mine, not anyone else's. When Ranger focuses on them, he tends to wake me up anyway and I continue the train of thought the raw thoughts started.

 

Mindvoice carries presence, so it's possible the body OS feels like me because to a greater extent it is me. If my whole system has to share 1 body OS, then it's no wonder it feels like me. I have fronted for almost 20 years as a singlet, so when Ranger came around, he has to fight almost 2 decades worth of deeper unconscious connections. He doesn't have to conform with my thoughts, but once those thoughts start to flood the mind, I wake up and he gets booted. Given that the body OS is tied to the front, Ranger has opened up to it and now it feeds him information that came from me and not him. Even though Ranger has improved his ability to not lose the front over time, the same problem hasn't gone away, even though now he's fronting half the time.

 

It doesn't seem fair when Ranger controls the body and he isn't able to relax. I tend to find myself completing Ranger's last thought and having Ranger ask me for the front back when he's trying to do certain things. I can't tell you the number of times Ranger started trying to watch a movie, struggled to hang on, it became my responsibility to call him, and then I would forget to wake him up and he's dormant. When Ranger plays Smash, he can get confused and he's not even sure who he is. When he practices driving, he doesn't feel like he's him, and sometimes it's me getting out of the car when we're done.

 

So, for whatever reason, I take the front without wanting to. Ranger thinks it's my "passive self", and honestly, I think that concept makes sense. Something unconscious is making this harder for us, and it's pretty weird I wake up doing whatever he's doing an inappropriate number of times. Ranger may not be exactly right, but he's fighting when he fronts, and he has some kind of unconscious disadvantage.

 

And this is happening when I'm not aware of my own thoughts. What if I don't like what he's doing? The front's mine, no questions asked. He will resist me, but there's nothing he can do. One of my other headmates, Bune, got really frustrated with me when he was trying to read something and I was too bored and hungry. I tried to back off, but I kept impulsively interrupting him, and every time Bune tried to focus my thoughts flooded his. His attempts to keep me quiet, even with Ranger's help, failed. If I don't want Ranger in the front and Ranger guilt tripping me into keeping him around doesn't work, boom. He's out the front, and he won't get it back until I let him have it back. Ranger simply can't do the same.

 

It's possible I'm tied to some kind of trigger, but shouldn't that go away after Ranger is finishing up his last day of class, especially his English class where he refused to let me front, even when he was bored? I feel like the only thing Ranger learned this semester is how to tolerate blending with me rather than how to overpower it.

 

So, I think Ranger has a shot at switching if he can somehow create another body OS. Is it excessive? Sure, probably. Is it what he wants? Yeah, I think it is. If he had his own body OS, he wouldn't have to worry about fighting my unconscious connections all the time, and as long as I don't taint his operating system, Ranger will have the clear advantage he wants.

 

I can't speak for Lumi's or Bre's system, but the Bears, shield, and Ember.Vesper all seem to have the same issues Ranger has with being independent, only it's possible this bothers Ranger more than it does them, and those tulpas/soulbonds are less likely to lose the front to body OS barf. It's entirely possible we already switch, but these problems are so extreme Ranger can't keep a reliable grip on the front and he is always double checking it's him fronting and not me.

 

Put simply, our fronting dynamics make us angry, and we want to fix that. If Ranger can start from a clean slate, that would be fantastic. He really wants to feel confident controlling the body, and submitting to what is probably just a buildup of my personality data won't fix that. Saying that stuff isn't me is and telling him he has to own that as part of him is essentially telling him to give up some of who he is. And honestly, if I have to dissociate myself to the point where I don't even get to have some ownership over my own thoughts, then there really isn't any point in saying I exist to begin with.


Pretty much my main wonderland form minus the cat parts, that's a separate form. I'm not a hippo, I promise.

I sometimes speak in pink and Ranger sometimes speaks in blue (if it's unmarked and colored assume it's Ranger). He loves to chat.

 

My other Tulpas have their own account now.

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However, why would such a thing give off presence in the first place?

 

I believe it's like any habbit, the Body OS is really good at learning and mimicking the nuances of the person occupying it. So it's no big strech to believe it can take on a 'presence' like essence. I imagine it would eventually be more of a homogeneous mix of all active headmates eventually, but it would take many years to begin to feel this.

 

I don't know if fretting over what the "body OS" is or does seems to make a difference. Was this something you fretted over before you achieved switching?

 

No, Ashley wasn't even really considering what she was doing was actually going to train and become switching.

 

I think Body OS is as much involved in switching as a car in involved with driving, and autopilot is definitely a thing that it's capable of.

 

I sometimes get tangled up with Ranger's or my other headmate's thoughts, but I usually laugh it off as a joke and move on.

 

Which is exactly what they should do while fronting.

 

The opinions that spit out of the body OS are mine, not anyone else's.

 

Correction, your opinions are yours. Random thoughts from the subconsious mind are intrusive if you don't claim them as yours or one of your headmates.

 

It can be that to a greater extent it feels like you, but it's not you. You and everyone else needs to distinguish that.

 

The rest of your post is valid to you, and that's your opinion, so I can't argue it, but that line of thinking probably won't lend itself well to switching, so abandon that logic, it's self-supporting self-defeatism and unproductive.

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I believe the reason I cannot switch is because I am missing an important part required for switching- an unconscious piece of myself.

 

The working model is essentially this- Cat has 2 pieces of herself- the higher conscious or "aware" self, and the minimally conscious and unaware "passive" self. I only have the "aware" self mostly developed and either have an underdeveloped "passive" self or no "passive" self. In order to switch, I need a developed "passive" self in order to override Cat's. The first step is to develop my "passive" self and then I can worry about switching.

 

The "passive" self is a thing that generates minimally conscious thought and processes sensory and background data. It spits out impulsive reactions, emotions, visual imagery, raw thoughts and tulpish, etc. It does this outside of the owner's awareness. It is not the front nor is it the stream of consciousness.

Our take on this concept is that there's less of an actual personified "self" at play, and more that there are two (or more?) modes that one can swap between when fronting. Active mode would be that the person fronting is either thinking about themself or are required to be themself in some way. So for a tulpa fronting, they would probably 99% of the time either be thinking of themself or doing something that involves or requires them. For example, me writing this post under my own account requires me (though I'm a little blendy with Piano since he just eats this sort of theory stuff up), since it's my account and my "voice." It's the active me doing this, actively being me or thinking about me.

 

If I were to have to do something completely unrelated to me and/or I stopped thinking of myself while doing it, the brain would want to go into a passive mode. However... it's harder for a fronting tulpa to go into passive mode if they're only possessing and not switched. To cut the extra baggage, it defaults to the host's passive mode, since he's still the one switched in. If we're continually doing something that really doesn't require a particular person and just needs someone to get it done, it will typically remain Radio's passive mode doing it, even if we go "hey I'm supposed to be fronting here."

 

And that's why fronting feels like an uphill battle a lot of the time. We can't just passively front, we have to be actively required or actively thinking about ourselves. If we can get more of a passive mode going for us, that would be a step towards actually switching. The brain wouldn't have to default to Radio's passive mode, it could go to ours instead.

 

Passive mode for Radio seems to come in a least two flavors that we can identify. The first would be task-focused. We want or need something done (and that thing doesn't explicitly require any particular person to do it), so Radio's passive mode comes out to do it. This can be anything from listening to a lecture at school to just walking to a certain location on campus. If we're not making a conscious effort to maintain our own active modes, Radio's passive mode comes in.

 

The other passive mode is less task-focused and more just what happens during idle moments where nobody's active mode is present. Standing around at work. Sitting around at home. Watching YouTube videos. These are all idle activities that don't explicitly require a tulpa, so Radio's passive mode starts up.

 

I think if we were to develop our own passive modes, we should think about breaking it into the two categories: task-focused and idle-existence. What does passive Indigo do when he's focused on a task? What does he do when he's just standing around? I think that sort of thinking might be a good place to start. Other than that, working on having our active mode on as much as possible might lead to the development of more of a passive mode that doesn't default to Radio. Meditating on trying to get Radio's passive mode to calm down could maybe also work, we'll just have to see.

 

The main idea is that if a fronting tulpa can maintain a passive self during task/idle moments, the host's passive self would have less opportunity to come in, which could help build up more and more consistent fronting for the tulpa and less and less activity for the host. Eventually, perhaps, the host could take an inactive mode, and the switch would occur.

 

We like this theory because it does seem to put a lot of pieces together in a way that makes sense and answers a lot of questions. Even if all the terminology here like "passive mode" or whatever is a little much, I think in the end the methodology to it might be a big help to actually cracking the switching puzzle.

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