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What is our nature?

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Consider this hypothesis and please give your thoughts:

 

We are all, hosts, tulpas and other thoughtforms, inhabitants of a creature we call the body. The body is not without habbits and desires stemming from experience gained through it that form habbits and chemical needs.

 

The creature is without clear thoughts of its own, instead it can act on instinct and instructions given to it when not associated directly with any of 'us'.

 

It is not our right to dominate, subjugate, or suppress this creature, but rather to tame, instruct, and constrain it.

 

In the resulting symbiosis, we enjoy the fruits of our labors in all the worldly and material ways we are accustomed to.

 

I am not intending for this to be a metaphysical discussion, so if you do, hide it. Instead this is a discussion to explain what is left when you switch out. If everyone switched out particularly, so it wouldn't include everything in common between you and your headmates.

 

In this way we are all the same, though experience varies greatly between headmates. So do you agree with these loosely stated notions (with no particular order or dependency required.) Or do you have your own hypothesis to discuss instead?

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we definitely consider the body/brain its own entity, but Lumi learned to think like that before finding Tulpa.info and switching lol. In between switching out and switching in, the body can't really do much on its own and if we're interrupted suddenly then whoever was switching out instantly is back in, I don't think we could ever have the body have no one in it outside of that process. Uhm. Small personality-less thoughts can happen in between switching, though it's 50/50 like, I wanna say they're partially influenced by who was switching out of course, but otherwise they're only ever quick "observations" and not, like, thinking. If that makes sense? Like 1% processing power thoughts, idk

 

but yes, we absolutely treat our body/mind like something we need to train and deal with a lot in fact, 'cus we don't even associate with a lot of things it wants or makes us want, or thinks or tries to make us think (like the motivation stuff, though we can't quite escape that yet). Basically if we can feel/"think" something while also thinking "I don't want this", we don't consider the thing us but the body's influence. Fighting that kinda comes up all the time, though naturally a person just takes all of it as "themselves" anyways.

 

But if we did that we'd never do heckin' anything because BOY does our body/mind not like anything that requires effort at all including showering, it's up to us/whoever's fronting to make it do those things anyways

 

It's an interesting way to live! and even without headmates (and avolition in our case) I think it can improve your life a lot to learn to think that way, 'cus I mean, Lumi did exactly that just to get better control over his mind and life


Hi I'm one of Lumi's tulpas! I like rain and dancing and dancing in the rain and if there's frogs there too that's bonus points.

All of my posts should be read at a hundred miles per hour because that's probably how they were written

Please talk to me https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas

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...cus we don't even associate with a lot of things it wants or makes us want, or thinks or tries to make us think.

 

Bear never would have figured that out with our experimentation.

 

He felt no 'desires' that he did while switched in, desires like wanting to post, or eat, or other things. Of course he likes to snack but I didn't even get hungry, so some of that was on him, but there were definitely some desires that weren't me at all. Maybe you could call it learned habbits.

 

We never felt the body think without us, but would that be similar to intrusive thoughts, just mundane or fitting ones?

 

"Avolition", hey, you found a name for it. I think it's safe to say it would be a mality of the body.

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I'm really not sure anymore. But here's what I think: The body is Jamie. But "Jamie" is an increasingly nebulous term for us. Is a country an entity outside of its constituents? Is an anthill an entity outside all the individual ants? You interact with ants and you can interact with the physical environment of the ants, and I think most people would agree that by doing this, you do interact with an entity that is the anthill. 

 

You touch my fingers, and you touch me, because my fingers are (a part of) me. (Can you even touch "me" directly, without any middle man? I think that's only possible in-system, if that... you're using your brain, aren't you?) 

My body is affected, and I am affected, because I am my body. But this body is Jamie's. Pllllllease don't call me a roleplayer when I say, I do consider myself "Jamie." "Jamie" might as well be our body's name, or a system name. "Jamie" is "Legion." ...Or "Real." 

 

SS Jamie. We, confusingly, named the physical ship after the Captain. 

 

Medianhood has been a real trip, in terms of thinking about what identity is. A counselor was talking to us about choices. She asked, why do you choose to do anything? Jamie said, "Because someone made me." She said, what if no one tells you what to do? He said, "That never happens, but if it did, I guess I'd probably just stand there, I'd just go lay on the floor." She said, what if you get hungry? He said, "Someone would have to tell me to be hungry." She said, don't you think you can decide that for yourself? He said, "No, I don't. I don't make choices. I just exist." He went on to say he's never felt an emotion or an urge that someone didn't decide, he has never done anything without meaning to because he always means to do what he's told to do. "Yes, feelings are choices- needs are choices, the default state is really laying face-down in the dirt with your mouth open and your eyes glazed."

 

I don't think the body was talking, but a veil/shell talking about being empty of any one else- talking about when no one is in front. 

 

Why does the body choose to do anything? Because an identity made it. What if no one tells the body to do anything? That never (rarely) happens, but if it did, the body would probably just stand there or lay on the floor. You have to be aware of hunger to be hungry- the body doesn't get hungry, minds do. You aren't hungry when you sleep, when your mind is (mostly) dormant. 

 

Is the body really just an RV? A recreational vehicle?

 

 

 

It is not our right to dominate, subjugate, or suppress this creature, but rather to tame, instruct, and constrain it.

 

In the resulting symbiosis, we enjoy the fruits of our labors in all the worldly and material ways we are accustomed to.

 

 

Is it our right to tame, instruct, and constrain the creature, or a responsibility? A (just) obligation? 

 

What does the creature get? Does the body enjoy things? Does an RV care if it's mistreated its entire life? It can still be bad to mistreat a vehicle, but that badness comes from the minds evaluating and judging the problem, not the mindless vehicle.  -G



>tf when you google for "famous quotes by Marcus Aurelius" and had a fake one as your sig for months

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Habits come from behaviors and behaviors are chosen by people. I ingrained a lot of impulses to modes of thought and performance of habits into the Body OS over the course of 38 years and Vesper ruthlessly cleaned them all out within a year of fronting several hours a week, because they bugged her. My fault for carelessly storing personal data outside my own directory. So all remaining habits in the system are part of the inhabitants and not part of the vessel.

 

Since intrusive thoughts don't come from us, they also must come from the Body OS. But Vesper also cleaned out the ingrained fears and anxieties had been generating a steady stream of intrusive thoughts for decades, coming close to eliminating intrusive thoughts altogether.

 

Desires -- food, sleep, pain avoidance -- sure, the body has desires, but only the most elementary animal ones.

 

Independent of us, the body doesn't do anything physically noticeable beyond a vegetative level -- breathing, blinking, etc. It doesn't take instructions; we have to actually pilot. It is definitely incapable of producing speech.

 

Given that I'm a lesbian, Vesper is heteroflexible, and Iris is pristinely asexual, I don't think that sexual desire is a component of our body.

 

I've had an adversarial relationship with the body since it started forcing me to endure male puberty at eleven years old. I swore then that I would defeat it and I have. So I don't care if we have a right to dominate, subjugate, and suppress the body. We have the power and we exercise it.

 

The body is associated with a legal identity, but it doesn't have a name because it isn't a person and doesn't warrant one.

 

-Ember


I'm not having fun here anymore, so we've decided to take a bit of a break, starting February 27, 2020. - Ember

 

Ember - Soulbonder, Female, 39 years old, from Georgia, USA . . . . [Our Progress Report] . . . . [How We Switch]

Vesper Dowrin - Insourced Soulbond from London, UK, World of Darkness, Female, born 9 Sep 1964, bonded ~12 May 2017

Iris Ravenlock - Insourced Soulbond from the Winter Court of Faerie, Dresdenverse, Female, born 6 Jun 1982, bonded ~5 Dec 2015

 

'Real isn't how you are made,' said the Skin Horse. 'It's a thing that happens to you.' - The Velveteen Rabbit

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Is it our right to tame, instruct, and constrain the creature, or a responsibility? A (just) obligation?

 

What does the creature get? Does the body enjoy things? Does an RV care if it's mistreated its entire life? It can still be bad to mistreat a vehicle, but that badness comes from the minds evaluating and judging the problem, not the mindless vehicle.  -G

 

I think it's a responsibility when living within the constraints of a society to not let your beast run wild.

 

The creature gets care and maintenance, as well as regular attention. The body doesn't necessarily have an opinion on things, but if you pay attention, it 'feels good' when you do certain things, so you could say yes, and the body may crave that again regardless of who's fronting. Body consiousness you could say, has no spoken language and in uses body language to convey it's preferences.

 

An RV will break down, (throw fits) if you don't change the oil. Regular maintenance is important. We don't really know if the body is any different than an RV, that's what this discussion is for. Though it can be argued that all those neurons in every possible nook and cranny have a collective consiousness of a sort, it wouldn't be necessarily like the consiousness we know, but who knows?

 

Acting purely mindlessly toward the body is fine, if it had feelings you'd feel them right? But supressing every urge at all times and never allowing any of them to get through ever may also cause damage.

 

I don't think that sexual desire is a component of our body.

 

[Ashley] In our case it certainly is, or at least that's how it feels when fronting.

 

I've had an adversarial relationship with the body since it started forcing me to endure male puberty at eleven years old. I swore then that I would defeat it and I have. So I don't care if we have a right to dominate, subjugate, and suppress the body. We have the power and we exercise it.

 

I meant more in the way of someone who would choose to have a perfectly clean life, as in choosing to do what's right always without ever giving the chance to explore other possibilities. I don't know how to explain it, suppression or repression, it's hard to explain, but no, your body is female, your genetics say male, that's a mismatch and not what I meant to discuss.

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'Body Language' is an interesting idea. Is that bodily effects of your actions? I ate a too-spicy meal, and now my body will express its discontent? I took a walk in the sun, and my body gladdens us both with the happy juices? 

 

When we flush, when we turn red, when we get motion-sick, when we get spooked and our heart races- I would think these are the body talking and listening, in a way. 

 

When I tried to put in contacts, I defintely felt like my body was screaming, "Noooo!" at me. Rebelling, not placid. I felt like I was sitting down and going, "Now, you listen here... we're going to do this, so cool it." 

 

The body listens to our thoughts, but it can react from outside stimulus without us being involved, as well. Maybe our thoughts ARE external input to the body...if the mind is not the body. 

 

Is a sense of presence generated by the body or the mind? ...Are experiences, in general, an output created by the body, which minds go on to interpret? Or are experiences generated by minds?

 

I don't want to make this about trans stuff either, but HRT was defintely one of the things that's made the body happiest in our case. Not a show of force, a much-needed correction. In our case. The body was very much on board and glad to have hormones, if a bit confused. Cue hot flash. - G



>tf when you google for "famous quotes by Marcus Aurelius" and had a fake one as your sig for months

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So here is what I think:

 

The human body is a machine, after all, an organic machine. It needs food to operate and "live" since it's organic.

This body is very similar (or not) to computers. It has a processor *Brain* it has a motherboard *The central mass of the body* and it has it's components like the human body.

Memory *Stored in the brain*, Graphics card *Eyes and brain part responsible for it*, Ears *And it's part in the brain to process... Etc' etc....

 

So, what's the body without a commander that operates it?

This is where the human soul gets in to play.

 

If you are religious in what ever stream of christianity or judaism or Islam or Hindi, what ever, they have a very strong opinion about the human soul.

 

But What if, the human soul is "running like a program" on the "processor" which is the *Brain*.

Think of it for a second. When we die the machine dies. Then the brain stops and with it our program, our soul.

What if, we accidentally run two programs, on the same processor? We can do it on computers so heck why not on a human body?

That's what I think happened to me.

 

Emily, my Tulpa, or spirit (As she prefers to be called) was born 10 years ago as an imaginary friend. It's impossible for a tulpa to actually move your body without switch, right?

What if I tell you she saved my life 3 times already while I was riding on my motorcycle? Just today she hit the brakes since I was going to fast - she then immediately asked me "That's not typical for you! what's wrong? you need me here to keep you focused?"

 

I think that the human body is a wonderful machine that yet has been diagnosed to it's very basic core. The soul system, in my opinion runs on the brain, and can interact with the whole body like a OS in computers.

 

 

White Knight

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I have likened the body to a vessel. I am fond of the idea of comparing it to a crystal radio- many here won't know or remember playing with crystals radio, but you can take crystal, hook electrodes to it, earplugs, and connect one of the electrodes to an antennae, as simple as an chain link fence, and you can hear a radio station. You don't even need a battery. My Steve Austin (Six Million Dollar Man) came with a crystal radio backpack.

 

Nobel laureate Luc Montagnier in 2009 has proposed DNA can transmit signals. What can transmit can receive. More on that, Mantagnier reports it is possible to 'teleport' DNA from source, body, to a remote distance, and place it in a container of water.

 

Chicken or the Egg... Do parents have to provide DNA? Did the original pro-generator project energy into some distant pool and call forth the first DNA? Do you, your super personality or greater consciousness, come to the DNA and participate in your own prenatal evolution? Regardless of what you think of past life studies, there is an interesting parallel. People who died of from violence have birthmarks coinciding with that violence. someone who's fingers were cut off in the past life, are born in a body with underdeveloped fingers. People were shot in a past life have birth marks corresponding to entrance and exit founds.

 

I think the evidence is overwhelming, when you consider all the cultural reference to there being something external to us, and that every culture has held some belief of an afterlife. It's not just superstitious thinking, but even if you hold that thought, these things are not irrelevant and yes, there are coincidences, but when coincidence falls above the sigma 5, it's no longer 'chance.' We exist outside of body. Consciousness first, matter second. This world is consensual a sandbox. We've come here to build castles and learn to play nice with each other. Unlike the 'real world' school system, you don't leave this kindergarten until you get it.

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The body most definitely is it's own thing. My body has things Amantha simply doesn't have.

 

Let's give an example. I have a form of autism, which is neurological. There's a weird issue with the "hardware" in my head, so to speak. Downloading the right software can help with that, but never take away the problem entirely. The brain has a neurological structure. No matter who is fronting, the brain structure remains the same. So if Amantha and I were to switch, Amantha would also have to put up with hardware problems. She has very different software, so maybe she can deal with things I had trouble with, but it's impossible my autism won't affect her at all. It's a body thing, a system-wide problem. It inevitably inpacts how both of us see the world, no matter who might be switched in.

 

Not to mention some software, some of which seem to be pre-installed is also used for whoever is in front. A drive for food and water are again body specific. For us, only the person in front is dealing with that. And either way, only the person controlling the body can actually eat and drink. There are some programs that are just "stuck" on the body that people switched out don't have to deal with.

 

The body has two user files, Michen and Amantha. Both can be used at the same time, though only the person switched in has administrator rights. Some programs can only be opened by the one in control of the body, the other works more in the background. With posession I could temporarily allow someone else to run certain programs using my administrator rights (think of the program TeamViewer, just more localised to a specific body part and a user on the same PC).

 

However, unlike actual computers, a switch doesn't change the userfiles. Not even necessarily what users are active. It changes the user the administrator rights are applied to. When Amantha would switch in, she'd get the administrator rights. I wouldn't know if I could run some things on the background as a second active user, as we've never actually switched. But I do know that unlike computers, this system can't run without an active user working with administrator rights. The system simply won't allow it to.

 

That's the best anology I can come up with, at least. Sorry if it's confusing.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

The body is a weird thing. It seems to have desires, almost like thoughts, of it's own. Something neither of us has direct control over. Yes, we can surpress this if we want to, but it can't be fully stopped. We still need to live with it. The body comes with an internal clock, hunger receptors, you name it. It's always there no matter who's switched in at the moment, and both of us can notice it.

 

But here's the thing. Despite being always there, it's up to the person switched in to actually do something with it or not. If nobody would be switched in, there's nobody who can do anything with it, so only some of the automated responses between the brain and the body continue. Besides that, the body would just lie down there, doing absolutely nothing useful. It needs a stream of conscious to actually leap to action and do something with the signals the body is sending out.

 

Now, Michen and I are both streams of consciousness. I don't know if we're actually both a seperate conscious or whether we are one consciousness as a system, but that doesn't matter. What matters is that we both are seperate streams of consciousness, disregarding whether it's from two or one consciousness. If we would switch, it would change the stream of consciousness that's in control of the body's signals. But the signals would still be of the same type. We would also be using the same brain, for obvious reasons, which has it's own way of sending signals even if the signals themselves are different. There's a part of "Michen", that isn't even Michen, that's just unable to switch out.

 

Thanks to the body, we also can't both be switched out. The brain wants there to be a stream of conscious present to control the body when it needs to be controlled. Thanks to this we can't actually know what it would be like if both of us are switched out: we're working with a hypothetical scenario. Yes, some part of the brain simply can't be switched out with Michen if we would end up switching someday, but what would be left if both of us switched out? I don't know if the body would be able to send signals at all without a stream of conscious to control it. The brain sure wouldn't benefit from it. The stream of conscious, the brain and the body have to work together to achieve things.

 

Of course, when you go to sleep, you can't actively take control of those signals. But that's also because the mind itself temporarily becomes mostly inactive. The stream of conscious is still present when you're sleeping, it just can't do anything for that time because it can't call on the body. The body, in it's mostly-inactive state, also isn't calling on any stream of consciousness. The body just functions on it's own, and it's the closest thing you can get to everyone being switched out. Despite that you're not actually switched out. Though the body is doing it's own thing, the brain in it's mostly-inactive state and the stream of conscious are still connected. Hence why people can experience dreams as if those were real. When the body does want something it needs the stream of conscious for (like going to the toilet), it first wakes you up by making the brain more active again, at which point your body can reach the stream of conscious again as well.


Michen, host or "main" / Amantha, anthro arctic fox tulpa

 

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