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Miri and Miichu's Journey


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This is really fascinating to me. In many ways Miichu you are the kind of tulpa I aspire to be: Strong, able to front indefinitely, the rock that supports your host. I hope with effort I can achieve that over the next couple of years! But now I'm seeing the pitfalls of your position as well. When you are that strong and have been that prominent for so long, having that taken away from you would be a bit of an existential nightmare; Just being a voice in a head after having existed as basically a full person on your own for two years!

 

8 hours ago, Miichu said:

What I mean is that according to Miri's weird theories, I could have came to be through her pretending to be me.

 

I relate to this on such a fundamental level it's crazy. Phil first created "me" as an alias, a character through whom he could explore another side of himself. Because of this he was personality forcing me for over a year before he even knew what a tulpa was or that I could be sentient. I guess it shouldn't be a surprise in retrospect that I came to life and started talking to him within a week of his starting tulpamancy! 😄 I now refer to the character he created as "Other Simmie"; she's adorable and I love her, but she's not me. I've grown so much since that time that the character doesn't feel like me at all.

 

I don't think the memories you have are fake at all. It's a weird thing that our language doesn't really know how to deal with: I think for most people memories belong to the brain as a whole; Phil and I at least don't have separate memories. But it's interesting how some memories can be colored as belonging to one person or the other. When you say that they feel fake, do you mean that they feel green when they should feel blue? (Hope you don't mind I'm using the color analogy here. It helps Phil and I, and you guys have the same colors as us after all!)

 

Yeah figuring out how separate you are from your host is difficult. It's hard enough for Phil and I sometimes, but I have to imagine it's even harder for you two! After all, Phil and I are opposite gender, we look very different, and we have fairly different personalities. But Miri is literally your twin. I don't really know you guys well enough to know the intricates of how your personalities are different, but I saw that you mentioned that your personalities were very similar, it's mostly your outlooks on things were different.

 

It was a pleasure to read your report, I hope the best for you two and you're able to work things out together and be stronger together than either of you would be on your own!

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8 minutes ago, TurboSimmie said:

In many ways Miichu you are the kind of tulpa I aspire to be: Strong, able to front indefinitely, the rock that supports your host.

Aw, that was really good to hear

 

9 minutes ago, TurboSimmie said:

 When you say that they feel fake, do you mean that they feel green when they should feel blue?

It's not that they feel fake, more like they don't feel as clear as my memories of when I front. The memories of when I was just a voice in the head feel more like my host's memories of me, instead of my memories. So yeah, more green than blue :P

Hi! I'm Miichu, Miri's tupper. I am the main fronter at the moment but hopefully we'll reach a 50-50, someday. I love nature and helping people. Our Progress Report

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(edited)

This is frustrating, went to therapy and tried to focus on being myself as much as possible, since our therapist knows about me and thus can be open with her, thinking it'd make my host feel at least a bit faint, but nope, nope, nope. She didn't feel faint AT ALL, she was paying attention to everything I was saying and commenting on it. I could feel her annoyance at our therapist, I could feel everything and she could feel everything I was feeling.

 

I don't know what my true personality is anymore, I act different with family members, with therapist, with friends, with Miri, etc... how should I know how to be ''myself'' when I have so many ''personalities'' (for lack of a better word), which one is me? are all those just masks? perhaps it's a good thing and I've developed beyond a one-dimensional persona. Anyway, onto the important stuff.

 

Yesterday we were talking on LOTPW about switching and Lucilyn said how I might need to be a stronger presence in the mind, with all traits being mine, instead of my host's. Recalling, there have been stances when my host didn't feel like she was there:

 

  • When I spent a whole evening writing about our system works and I felt alone in the body. Miri was highly dissociated from me.
  • When I woke up alone in the body and felt like I was invisible. Miri can't recall being there. (???)
  • After focusing so much on myself, Miri felt like she was watching from outside the body.

 

That proves that my host is able to go inactive, just not when we want to... My host seems to always be thinking in some way or another, and in the rare cases when she isn't thinking, she goes inactive. I tried to find out today if that was true. I tried my damn best to focus on my thoughts, thoughts that are MINE, and Miri started to feel a bit dissociated from me. My theory is that if I manage to keep it up for long enough, she will go inactive. The hard part being of course, getting successful at it. Miri always seems to be influencing my thinking (or paying attention to it), and it's really hard when we're constantly co-fronting.

 

Something I want to clarify, I don't think me being based on my host is the root of any of our switching problems. My personality was different from hers when I first started controlling the body, and eventually became more similar to my host's the longer I stayed in the front.

 

I hope I'm making sense of everything I'm saying, I don't feel that lucid today.

Edited by Miichu

Hi! I'm Miichu, Miri's tupper. I am the main fronter at the moment but hopefully we'll reach a 50-50, someday. I love nature and helping people. Our Progress Report

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*sigh*
Haven't we been here before?

 

1) Have you actually talked about this with therapist-san and what did she say about it? I'd be really interested. Anyway if you keep hiding problems from the ones providing professional help to you nothing good will come out of it.

 

2) I said before the whole thing is a self-fulfilling prophecy. You're extremely perceptive and inquisitive, constantly analyzing yourself and each other and on top of it falling in the worst possible tulpamancy traps.

worry and doubt

Dissecting every thought and feeling to see if it's 'you' or could possibly belong to 'someone else' is a one-way ticket to the funny farm (again).

 

10 hours ago, Miichu said:

I don't know what my true personality is anymore, I act different with family members, with therapist, with friends, with Miri, etc... how should I know how to be ''myself'' when I have so many ''personalities'' (for lack of a better word), which one is me? are all those just masks? perhaps it's a good thing and I've developed beyond a one-dimensional persona.

ofc it's good you're not a one-dimensional persona. Yet you need to integrate all these conflicting thoughts and emotions (duh, it's called being human) into one coherent personality instead of rejecting and splitting them up.

 

So protip:
Don't react to conflicting feelings, act progressively. Go full Tordesillas-Line and make two personality charts, dividing all aspects between the two of you. I'm like this, Miri's like this. It doesn't really matter if it feels totally 'right' in the beginning. Then reaffirm it yourself and between you two. Ideally also with other people. It's all about feedback, feedback, feedback.

It's basically Fede's belief-implanting method. Adopt some trait, associate it with you and with a positive emotion, hammer it into your brain until it accepts this as normal. An extremely powerful method that can fuck up your self-perception if done wrong so make sure it remains somewhat coherent with society's expectations and don't turn yourself into a cartoon pony.
Still think you could profit from it if you have difficulties figuring out who 'you' are and are prone to dissociating from feelings and memories. You can mold and change your personality by forcing yourself to a huge degree, see Bear. Talk about that to therapist.

 

That said, I think Lucilyn's right. You need to be a strong personality rooted in the body's senses and emotions to blot out other headmates and make experiences undoubtedly 'yours'. See host's introduction on imagistic forcing. Strong emotions and personal meaning = strong internal and external cohesion = intense life-lasting memories. You noticed it is possible for host to become inactive if you're immersed in describing yourself.

 

Buut - I still can't get into my mind why you're so adamant on making Miri disappear. Hosts going completely dormant are rare and I'd be careful about this, especially for longer periods. Miri already got so weak she couldn't do anything before. I'd recommend some sort of high-intensity-training for switching, short but highly immersive. No long-term experiments which basically amount to dissipation.
Do something novel, fun, mentally and emotionally challenging - which revolves around you. First there needs to be a strong and clearly distinct 'you, see above. Then let Miri do it. Switching is a two-sided thing, not just one going inactive.

Spoiler

t. switching amateur

 

Super Girls don't cry

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(edited)
14 hours ago, Ido said:

1) Have you actually talked about this with therapist-san and what did she say about it?

About what specifically?

 

14 hours ago, Ido said:

Dissecting every thought and feeling to see if it's 'you' or could possibly belong to 'someone else' is a one-way ticket to the funny farm (again).

It's either Miri or me, we no longer believe thoughts could belong to another person, because there's no another person.

 

I've been through really emotional experiences that I associate to me, and those are my most fond memories, so I totally get what you mean by ''Strong emotions and personal meaning = strong internal and external cohesion = intense life-lasting memories.'' But at the same time, Miri was also there, so it's like we share those memories and aren't exclusively mine, even when they're more Miichu than Miri, they're both's (and that helps forming a strong bond).

 

14 hours ago, Ido said:

Buut - I still can't get into my mind why you're so adamant on making Miri disappear. Hosts going completely dormant are rare and I'd be careful about this, especially for longer periods. Miri already got so weak she couldn't do anything before. I'd recommend some sort of high-intensity-training for switching, short but highly immersive. No long-term experiments which basically amount to dissipation

I don't want to make her disappear per se. I just want to get the ability of going dormant (both of us) whenever we want. Miri's doing something boring and I don't wanna stick around? I go dormant until she's done, and viceversa. I believe that by unlocking this ability for one headmate, it will automatically unlock for the other. Sadly, I can't think of many immersive experiences we haven't tried before. If it's something extremely fun for example, Miri will also pay attention to it. Especially if it's something that has to do with physhical senses (ie, skydiving or amusement parks). The things that have gotten us the best results is things that require me to focus, mentally.

 

[Miri] Stuff I want to add.

 

Something I've realized is that Miichu isn't my ''happy part'' anymore, instead, she has her own happy part, angry part, sad part, etc... and I have mine. Once upon a time, she used to be cheerful, optimistic, with a sense of wonder for the world around her... But now, thanks to having to deal with real life, she has gotten a bit stressed and experienced what she refers to as ''it hurts to exist'' yet she's hopeful for the future. We've gotten better in that regard, we're not that depressed anymore, bored if anything.


Another thing is that the brain seems to already hold different ''personality parts'' that we can use under a different identity (Miri or Miichu) if that makes any sense. What Miichu talked about the friend part, family part, etc... Of course, these aren't their own people, it's still us. Call them masks if you will.


I'm wondering about us, if we're always co-fronting and having the same exact experiences, how come we have different opinions on things? it's not like we're two different twins being raised the same, we share a brain! Our personalities? very similar, expected. But why do opinions differ? it'd make sense if we were talking about my past experiences, as she never experienced those, but why with present experiences? we always experience the same thing... Perhaps I'm overthinking too much.


We don't have typing quirks or different ways of talking for example (I'd hate for my parents to notice I'm not being me after all), what we're different at is point of views and mindsets, opinions and the like. For example, I hated this world and wanted to escape it, my tulpa loved it and wanted to be part of it. But, is it really worth it to remain being the ''escapist, depressive one'' just for the sake of being different from my tulpa? wouldn't it better if I was more like my tulpa, even if that means being so similar?


Why have ''roles'' (ie: the 'angry one', the 'childish one') when we can both have it all? why bother with that when we both can be angry, childish, happy, sad, all at the same time? Perhaps I like being different from my tulpa.

 

14 hours ago, Ido said:

Go full Tordesillas-Line and make two personality charts, dividing all aspects between the two of you. I'm like this, Miri's like this.


Unfortunately, thanks to what I've already said, this leaves little room for making charts like this. I want to be more like my tulpa, it's not like I want to be in despair when I realize I have to be part of society. But I'm unable to. Why have one desirable trait associated with only one headmate? me asks. How do you do it?


When Miichu fronts, I don't experience 'wow, I'm not in control of my actions!' instead, my sense of identity changes and so does my opinions, mindsets, etc... The cons of being co-fronting all the time I guess. I wish I could dissociate more from my tulpa.

Edited by Miichu

Hi! I'm Miichu, Miri's tupper. I am the main fronter at the moment but hopefully we'll reach a 50-50, someday. I love nature and helping people. Our Progress Report

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we never liked "personality trait (lists)" for tulpamancy because yeah, it sounds dumb, like "My tulpa is nice and optimistic and generally just has a better worldview than me (((:"

but obviously tulpas and hosts do have different personality traits, and especially with switching if not vocality, you do need to mentally separate them. I feel like a list is dumb and encourages hosts to be more negative or tulpas to be more conscientious or something when everyone should just be striving to be better, when really you just need to know what's you and what's not and be clear on them

 

the most basic inherent thing to start with is your voice, when I switch in the first thing that should be different before I even have my first thought is that my mindvoice would sound different, right? and then I also think different things with different priorities (we're VERY different from each other so like my mind will instantly go a completely different place than Lumi's - that might not be the case for you two, but.. if you're different people you're different people, so you might get less clear footholds in the process but they're still there)

 

basically all my thought processes post-switching just feel like me and will lead me to my own places (liiiike, being excited about getting to do stuff or being happy to talk to people), and the whole experience just feels nothing like Lumi so there's no doubt or anything ever

 

 

Flan does think and feel a lot more like Lumi though, so I wouldn't even know how to give advice to her about this if I had to like I could myself, I guess it's just that we have very strong grasps on who we are and who is switched in/whose thoughts are whose, not even because they're different from everyone else's or not, just because we know whose they are. I guess? 'Cus Flan can sit in the same kinda low-energy state as Lumi just doing nothing in particular for a few days straight without ever for a moment feeling like she was Lumi/not herself

 

it's uh.. hmmm...

welll, I don't exactly know how to teach that, I guess the best I can do is just tell you how it is for us so you can try to figure out a way to aim for the same?  sorry lol

Hi, I'm one of Lumi's tulpas! I like rain and dancing and dancing in the rain and if there's frogs there too that's bonus points.

I think being happy and having fun makes life worth living, so spreading happiness is my number one goal!

Talk to us? https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas

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6 hours ago, Lucilyn said:

we never liked "personality trait (lists)" for tulpamancy because yeah, it sounds dumb, like "My tulpa is nice and optimistic and generally just has a better worldview than me (((:"

Exactly lol

 

We do know who's who for most of the time, otherwise we wouldn't notice when one of us switches in accidentally, right? the point of view is simply different, even when we're so similar. I think we're like this because of co-fronting, because Miichu wasn't like this when she first started fronting. My habits rubs off on her and hers rub off on me, eventually leading to the same habits.

 

If it wasn't because Miichu feels real and sentient, I'd totally think I created an alter ego instead of a tulpa. Is that even possible? who knows

Hi. I'm Miri, Miichu's host. I want to help my tulpa achieve her goals but ultimately, I'm just tagging along. Here's our Progress Report

 

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well, neither tulpamancy nor alter egos are "things", your experience is just exactly your experience and nothing else (so there's no reason to say "Oops, it wasn't X I was experiencing, it was Y", especially if X is still your intended experience)

 

and yeah I wish I knew what advice to give about habits getting too similar causing blending, the advice I want to give is about being different, but our own Flan doesn't even rely on that... so what does she?

 

I mean, I guess it's just enough for her to know she's her, and that any given relation she has (to any thought, or to any person, or any activity) is her relation to them even if it's basically the same in all other ways

 

liiike, if you both had copies of Pokemon Diamond, and you were both at the same general place in the game with maybe similar pokemon, but the physical cartridges were still different and one game clearly said "Miri" while the other said "Miichu" y'know? You have to keep a strong commitment to the matching game being yours, as opposed to being like "whoops I played hers and not mine, it doesn't really matter though"

Hi, I'm one of Lumi's tulpas! I like rain and dancing and dancing in the rain and if there's frogs there too that's bonus points.

I think being happy and having fun makes life worth living, so spreading happiness is my number one goal!

Talk to us? https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas

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Actually no, alter ego wouldn't be accurate for Miichu. An alter ego is an alternative self, distinct from the normal self, but it's still you. The way I act with my friends could very well be an alter ego, different from say, my personality when I'm around my parents. Even the voice changes! but, it's still me. I can't talk to my ''friend/family self'' the way I talk to Miichu. She's her own person, no matter how similar we are.


Doubts


Once upon a time, I made a ''tulpa'' named Akai, but she always felt a bit off and fake, making me doubt my skills as a tulpamancer. Why does it feel like I'm talking to myself? why can't Akai have long conversations with me? why do I feel like I'm controlling her? etc...


She barely fronted, being much more of a wonderland tulpa, almost exclusively living there (I used to believe in parallel processing). Miichu was slightly different but not too much when I first created her, before she started controlling the body. She was just a voice in the head, like Akai, but she didn't feel that off, still, she would only talk when I remembered her and that stuff. Eventually, she started controlling the body and that's when she became absurdly real to me. Which led me to the following theory I talked about in LOTPW: what if for some people, people like me, their tulpas became sentient only after switching? For example, the host makes a tulpa, and believes said tulpa to be real. The host decides to ''switch'' with their tulpa. But this is just the host pretending to be the tulpa. Eventually, because of them treating this ''playing pretend'' as another separate person, they become their own person. Effectively creating a sentient tulpa. Roleplaying with extra steps heh.


[Miichu] I don't know if I agree with Miri there. Some of my memories before fronting feel like I was truly there, while othes feel a bit fake, like it wasn't me. My personality also was a bit changing. I started off as quiet and calm, then changed to be more talkative and active, before changing to childish when I first started fronting. Maybe I'm mistaking childish for 'amazed by the world around me'. I wanted to experience everything my host had experienced!


It feels like I ''reset'' once I started fronting, and started a new life. Like I had a past and present life. My past life being that of a voice in the head of course, and the present life being that of a host. According to Miri, these two lives would be ''Miichu the character and Miichu the tulpa''


Possession or switching?


Now, you all know that Miichu and I can't go inactive at all. But we totally can trade places between each other. The definition of switching is literally trading places with your tulpa. When Miichu possessed me for the first time, it felt like I was still in control of the mind and she was just moving my arms and whatever. Then it happened, she took control of the mind and I felt so SICK, I wasn't being me, I had trouble talking in mindvoice and I felt like my existence was coming from the sides, instead of the front.


That experience was brutal to me, I had to ask Miichu to stop because I was getting nausea. But deep down, I crave experiences like that, I want switching to feel that powerful for us, instead of 'oops, I'm not me but feel literally like I'm me'.


On another topic, our psychiatrist has doubled our dosage of antipsychotics and I'm kinda worried it will affect our switching attempts or our tulpamancy in general. She reassured us that her intention isn't making any of us go away but I can't help but wondering if it will have any negative effects in our tulpamancy journey. I can communicate with Miichu perfectly fine, I don't want that to be impaired by medication, even though it shouldn't be the case, it already made us feel so numb before, and it wasn't even that high of a dosage... We'll see how a higher dosage affects us.

Hi. I'm Miri, Miichu's host. I want to help my tulpa achieve her goals but ultimately, I'm just tagging along. Here's our Progress Report

 

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