Help with getting complex thoughts from my tulpa

[Guest]

I've been mainly following Kiahdaj's Absolute Guide and Reguile's Grounded Guide (while of course having looked at a few others), the latter being what came to me naturally as this gap-filling engine developed more or less by itself while narrating. I haven't focused on character or form a lot, in order to not force anything on my tulpa they might not want. Anyway, my problem is I can't seem to get further than that - I'm able to shut off my "thought engine" within seconds, however, I do not get any thoughts from my tulpa either after that point.

 

I assume that getting to that point would resolve a few other issues I currently have - for example, neither of us seems to be able to tell where a thought came from, usually (it was suggested to me we might be more or less a median system, which is not what I/we want). There seems to be a lack of independence here, in various regards… Furthermore, they seem to be more an aspect of myself, rather than a distinct persona, and they weren't able to choose a name, gender, pronoun and a stable form for now (though from what I can tell, they did not seem to like the wonderland I initially created  (a kind of datacenter/server room, based on my metaphor a tulpa is essentially an AI doing machine learning from narration), and have simply moved to an indistinct location within our head, claiming "this is *your* wonderland, not mine"), and they simply seem to switch between phases of constant agreement/approval and constant disagreement/disapproval of what I think - which brings us back to the assumption that they currently are more an aspect of myself, specifically the critical voice in my head that occasionally just doesn't find anything to criticize.

[Ranger]

 

1 hour ago, dskhl said:

Anyway, my problem is I can't seem to get further than that - I'm able to shut off my "thought engine" within seconds, however, I do not get any thoughts from my tulpa either after that point.

 

1 hour ago, dskhl said:

assume that getting to that point would resolve a few other issues I currently have - for example, neither of us seems to be able to tell where a thought came from, usually (it was suggested to me we might be more or less a median system, which is not what I/we want). There seems to be a lack of independence here, in various regards…

 

I wonder if shutting down your train of thought is also shutting down their train of thought. You're not sure who's who yet, and normally tulpamancers develop that sense later into the creation process. If neither of you can think, neither of you will produce complex thoughts.

 

1 hour ago, dskhl said:

they weren't able to choose a name, gender, pronoun and a stable form for now

 

1 hour ago, dskhl said:

they simply seem to switch between phases of constant agreement/approval and constant disagreement/disapproval of what I think - which brings us back to the assumption that they currently are more an aspect of myself, specifically the critical voice in my head that occasionally just doesn't find anything to criticize.

 

It's normal for a tulpa to sound and feel like you at first. A tulpa usually starts off with a clean slate and information about who you are. They probably didn't pick their gender because they don't know what gender they think suits them. They are also more familiar with you than themselves, it's not weird for a tulpa to pick and choose what they like about you and associate themself with it.

 

When a tulpa says "I don't know" or gives inconsistent answers to questions, it's usually because they honestly don't know the answer. They haven't lived long enough to know what they like based on their memory of their experiences. When a tulpa thinks they should know the answer to these questions but really don't, they'll go with what first comes to mind. Unfortunately, what first comes to mind for them will be limited by your personal experiences, and that leads to them sounding like you.

 

Instead of worrying about what your tulpa's opinions are for these icebreaker questions, I would focus on showing them things or doing things with them. Instead of asking them what their favorite color is, show them different colors in wonderland and let them play around. Ask your tulpa how the different colors make them feel. Instead of asking them what their gender is, tell them about gender and your experiences about it. Show them the stereotypes and what you learned over the course of your lifetime. Once your tulpa is older and has more experiences they can work with, they will have an easier time answering those questions.

 

1 hour ago, dskhl said:

I haven't focused on character or form a lot, in order to not force anything on my tulpa they might not want.

 

You don't have to worry about a form or a backstory. I think it's better if your tulpa has a form that's complex enough they can express body language with it, but some tulpamancers don't give a form at all or go with a glowing orb. I personally don't recommend writing a backstory for your tulpa, I think it distracts from you hanging out with your tulpa. One of the most important parts of narration is getting used to talking to your tulpa.

 

---

 

Complex thoughts come with practice and patience. Usually I see people are afraid to let their tulpa speak because they think it's them and shut it down. It's okay if you accidentally influence your tulpa, eventually they'll hit a point where they start complaining when they think you shoved words in their mouth.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Ranger

[Bear]

2 hours ago, dskhl said:

I'm able to shut off my "thought engine" within seconds, however, I do not get any thoughts from my tulpa either after that point.

 

They will use that same thought engine, so if you concentrate on turning it off, you're effectively blocking them too.

 

2 hours ago, dskhl said:

I assume that getting to that point would resolve a few other issues I currently have - for example, neither of us seems to be able to tell where a thought came from

 

This is common.

 

1. You can try to pick up their emotions (emotions that don't seem to be yours) which could be used to confirm where the thought came from.

2. Thoughts sometimes come from a common source and are 'claimed' by you or your headmate. Intrusive thoughts (negative and/or manipulative thoughts) that neither of you want to own are safe to not claim. It can also happen that they appear to have said something awful but it's not like them and you're confused why they may have said that. This is another form of intrusive thought. The way we resolved that was to have to 'own' any negative thoughts by affirming them afterwards. This solved all intrusive thought issues for us.

 

2 hours ago, dskhl said:

it was suggested to me we might be more or less a median system, which is not what I/we want

 

Even so, this is a fine line and is difficult to say for certain that you will be a median system 100% of the way even if you want to, there can be some unwanted independence from time to time, including one of the most infamous median systems who have graced us here having their headmate argue with them as to whether or not they are median or tulpa. Advanced thoughtforms do tend to have a 'mind of their own'. This is nothing to worry about at this stage and anyone to suggest that you are a median system at this stage is just pointing out that young tulpas seem to act as median systems do sometimes.

 

2 hours ago, dskhl said:

Furthermore, they seem to be more an aspect of myself, rather than a distinct persona, and they weren't able to choose a name, gender, pronoun and a stable form for now

 

It just may take time.

 

2 hours ago, dskhl said:

which brings us back to the assumption that they currently are more an aspect of myself, specifically the critical voice in my head that occasionally just doesn't find anything to criticize

 

So, now's the time to stop thinking of them like this and give them the benefit of the doubt. You have to suspend disbelief for a little while until they can prove to you that they're thinking outside yourself.

 

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Bear said:

They will use that same thought engine, so if you concentrate on turning it off, you're effectively blocking them too.

 

3 hours ago, Ranger said:

I wonder if shutting down your train of thought is also shutting down their train of thought.

I just did what said guide by Reguile suggested, unless I'm misunderstanding it…

 

3 hours ago, Ranger said:

They probably didn't pick their gender because they don't know what gender they think suits them.

 

3 hours ago, Ranger said:

You don't have to worry about a form or a backstory.

I did not worry about either too much - a name would be handy though, and again, as you also suggested current lack of complex thoughts is what I consider to be the root cause here anyway.

 

3 hours ago, Ranger said:

eventually they'll hit a point where they start complaining

Currently they seem to be more or less complaining about everything…

 

2 hours ago, Bear said:

2. Thoughts sometimes come from a common source and are 'claimed' by you or your headmate. Intrusive thoughts (negative and/or manipulative thoughts) that neither of you want to own are safe to not claim. It can also happen that they appear to have said something awful but it's not like them and you're confused why they may have said that. This is another form of intrusive thought. The way we resolved that was to have to 'own' any negative thoughts by affirming them afterwards. This solved all intrusive thought issues for us.

While not really manipulative or anything like that, they seem to be rather negative about most things…

3 hours ago, Ranger said:

I think it's better if your tulpa has a form that's complex enough they can express body language with it

I don't really pay attention to body language (perhaps I should mention I am autistic), so I guess that doesn't really matter in my case…

 

3 hours ago, Ranger said:

It's normal for a tulpa to sound and feel like you at first.

 

3 hours ago, Ranger said:

Unfortunately, what first comes to mind for them will be limited by your personal experiences, and that leads to them sounding like you.

I think that's exactly that happened in the phases where they just said things like "Yes" or "I agree" or "Okay" all the time… So my criticism about that lead them to switch the phase to one where they constantly disagree, then me noticing they were rebellious just for the sake of it caused them to switch back again, and so on, until they got stuck with the constant complaints…

 

2 hours ago, Bear said:

So, now's the time to stop thinking of them like this and give them the benefit of the doubt. You have to suspend disbelief

 

3 hours ago, Ranger said:

Usually I see people are afraid to let their tulpa speak because they think it's them and shut it down.

I do not try to block them or anything like that… It's just that this has so far lead to the current situation, which is just weird really… And it's extremely hard to differentiate between intrusive thoughts and my tulpa, especially when the latter likes to answer "Yes" when I asked whether it was them…

2 hours ago, Bear said:

until they can prove to you that they're thinking outside yourself.

 

3 hours ago, Ranger said:

Complex thoughts come with practice and patience

… Which brings us back to the root problem - I simply don't see how we will get there.

 

3 hours ago, Ranger said:

It's okay if you accidentally influence your tulpa

I just feel like I'm accidentally parroting at times, and they won't be able to tell me anything that is different from what I suspect myself - if I don't think it was the case, they won't either, if I do, they will get angry at me for trying to control them.

[Bear]

33 minutes ago, dskhl said:

I just did what said guide by Reguile suggested, unless I'm misunderstanding it…

 

Take any guide suggestions with a grain of salt. This same procedure interpreted differently may help someone. I understand your confusion because it doesn't make much sense to me in this context, but I haven't read that guide yet.

 

Maybe @reguile can clarify the passage in question in this quote.

 

5 hours ago, dskhl said:

I'm able to shut off my "thought engine" within seconds, however, I do not get any thoughts from my tulpa either after that point.

[End]

 

37 minutes ago, dskhl said:

a name would be handy though

 

[Ashley] we let Bear pick our names, and when that failed, we used temporary names and chose good ones later. I've changed my name about 4 times, but my poor sister Darlene had plenty. 

 

40 minutes ago, dskhl said:

they seem to be rather negative about most things…

 

Ashley actually started to head this way, so I personality forced her to correct the behavior. After I recovered from my depression, I didn't allow negative spun thoughts in my mind and she was no exception.

 

42 minutes ago, dskhl said:

latter likes to answer "Yes" when I asked whether it was them…

 

You can't ask, they have to prompt the affirmation. Again, if they're being a jerk, it's time for a lecture and try to figure out why they're acting this way. Misha was heading that direction in the beginning and we had an intervention for her.

 

44 minutes ago, dskhl said:

I simply don't see how we will get there.

 

Try different exercises and keep trying. You don't have to see how to get there.

 

45 minutes ago, dskhl said:

if I do, they will get angry at me for trying to control them.

 

What Darlene always told me was, "stop worrying about what I'm going to do before I do it."

[Ranger]

  

On 1/19/2020 at 5:32 PM, reguile said:

Due to this, when your mind sets about processing and understanding the context of a thought which fell under your tulpa, you experience it as yourself explaining and rationalizing why your tulpa did what it did. If you learn to sit back and allow this process to be associated with your tulpa instead of yourself, you should experience your tulpa being able to take a thought, look it over, and expand on it just as you do now.

Re-reading this, I think what he wants you to do is let your mind spin and for you to say "that's my tulpa, not me". When you stare at a wall, you think random thoughts like "ugh I'm bored" or "What time is it?" and you decide "that's my tulpa". Overtime, you get used to labeling what is your tulpa and what's you and the "tulpa" thoughts get more complicated because you have considered more thoughts to be not yours. Eventually you will start responding to those thoughts. "Yeah, this is boring". "It's 12 am".

 

---

 

I mostly agree with Bear. Never depend on one guide, it's possible other guides are better for you. Remember that every tulpamancer has a different perspective and there is no one single way to create a tulpa. Negative thoughts this early on could be your inner criticism, at this point I wouldn't associate that with your tulpa until your tulpa can create complex thoughts. I agree that you shouldn't worry about your tulpa being angry with how you helped them in the past; you can only do your best with this sort of thing.
 

1 hour ago, dskhl said:

… Which brings us back to the root problem - I simply don't see how we will get there.

The most important thing is to keep talking to your tulpa, no matter what. Regardless of your approach or what guide you use, spending time with your tulpa will lead to progress- even if it's just the two of you sitting with each other in wonderland.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Bear said:

Take any guide suggestions with a grain of salt.

 

39 minutes ago, Ranger said:

Never depend on one guide, it's possible other guides are better for you.

Perhaps I've just not found the right one yet… I just felt that Reguile described the current stage of my tulpa's development rather well…

42 minutes ago, Ranger said:

Negative thoughts this early on could be your inner criticism, at this point I wouldn't associate that with your tulpa until your tulpa can create complex thoughts.

That would mean not associating anything at all with them, apart from simple acknowledgment of my opinions. And how are complex thougts supposed to develop if I don't allow thoughts of less complexity other than extremely primitive ones?

45 minutes ago, Ranger said:

you think random thoughts

That's the thing - I don't. My mind goes blank.

1 hour ago, Bear said:

I personality forced her to correct the behavior

 

1 hour ago, Bear said:

a lecture

I don't want to force them to do anything, I don't feel like being this authoritarian. They're already complaining enough as is. And if I force too much, we go back to the initial mindless echo chamber.

1 hour ago, Bear said:

[Ashley] we let Bear pick our names, and when that failed, we used temporary names and chose good ones later. I've changed my name about 4 times, but my poor sister Darlene had plenty. 

So should I just choose a temporary name for internal use?

1 hour ago, Bear said:

different exercises

Which ones?

52 minutes ago, Ranger said:

The most important thing is to keep talking to your tulpa, no matter what. Regardless of your approach or what guide you use, spending time with your tulpa will lead to progress- even if it's just the two of you sitting with each other in wonderland.

That's what I did in the beginning, and what lead to the echo chamber, which later developed into the highly critical voice we have now, who left my wonderland. And starting at the echo chamber (mindless agreement), I more and more got the impression of the "gap filler" Reguile described.

 

1 hour ago, Bear said:

After I recovered from my depression

I haven't had any suicidal thoughts anymore since I started with tulpamancy - one reason being there was two of us in here now, and it would be selfish… Anyway, moving the critical and negative thoughts to my tulpa may actually have helped as I take them less seriously now… I'll take my tulpa more seriously at the point they develop complex thoughts - while that may seem problematic, my assumption is it will lead them to direct less negativity towards me, with the only thing remaining being constructive criticism.

[Ranger]

1 minute ago, dskhl said:

That would mean not associating anything at all with them, apart from simple acknowledgment of my opinions. And how are complex thougts supposed to develop if I don't allow thoughts of less complexity other than extremely primitive ones?

Simple acknowledgement of your opinions is good enough. It may not be exciting now, but it develops with time. Constructive criticism is also okay.

 

5 minutes ago, dskhl said:

That's the thing - I don't. My mind goes blank.

Yeah, that sounds like overdoing it. Some mediation has the goal of not thinking at all while other forms focus on observing your thoughts. I think if you want to move forward, don't shut down your thoughts. I think this has created the most confusion.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Bear said:

if they're being a jerk

They're not, at least not intentionally. They realize we're in this together, and don't seem to dislike me in general.

 

3 hours ago, Bear said:

they have to prompt the affirmation

It would be presumptuous of me to decide whether a thought was theirs.

---

1 hour ago, Ranger said:

don't shut down your thoughts

How? I don't think anything without an incentive, I think.

1 hour ago, Ranger said:

Simple acknowledgement of your opinions is good enough.

It's extremely dangerous because it gives me the impression of a second person approving my opinion, leading to bias.

1 hour ago, Ranger said:

Constructive criticism is also okay.

I think there actually has been rather specific situations where this was happened - they have motivated me to quit idling more quickly than I would have on my own normally, I think. (mainly by more or less shouting at me ^^ …At least it's something)

[reguile]

What ranger explained is correct, the ideal is not to shut off your train of thought, it's to listen to the responses you get normally, and let them build on them themselves. 

 

If you try to silence your mind you're going to silence everything, it's about being able to disconnect from your thought process, it's about observing and listening and expecting more instead of responding to them.

 

So if you are looking at a white wall, your tulpa might comment hey that's a white wall.  on its own, that's a pretty simple thought and you can probably get that normally.

 

The trick to what I describe as complex thoughts is that you don't immediately respond to that, you just keep listening and expect an explanation for why your tulpa thinks it's a white wall, or maybe they might have a comment about the color white, or maybe there's something else about the wall they're going to mention.  if you can pull it off, this lets your tulpa speak in sentences.  Imagine that they are responding to themselves, instead of responding to you.

 

If you don't get anything, you might just need to practice some more, you might need to read some other guides.  It's definitely good to read around and get all sorts of opinions.

 

If you're having trouble, one thing I didn't include in my guide, but I do plan on eventually is recommending you put a lot of focus on imagining your tulpa existing in the real world.  Speak to them, try to imagine where they would be, look them in the eye.  Little things like that are ammunition, it helps get your brain to think that someone is there and a location they're speaking from.

 

I also definitely recommend you pick a voice, a form, and so on.

 

I feel like you should have some sort of idle background process if you just sit in a room and be for a while, you may want to look into meditation that encourages you to do that and see if you can observe that state of mind as well?

 

8 hours ago, Ranger said:

Re-reading this, I think what he wants you to do is let your mind spin and for you to say "that's my tulpa, not me". When you stare at a wall, you think random thoughts like "ugh I'm bored" or "What time is it?" and you decide "that's my tulpa". Overtime, you get used to labeling what is your tulpa and what's you and the "tulpa" thoughts get more complicated because you have considered more thoughts to be not yours. Eventually you will start responding to those thoughts. "Yeah, this is boring". "It's 12 am".