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Breloomancer
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If an author with a bad reputation makes a guide and there's nothing wrong with the guide, then no, there's no reason to move it to drafts. Even though Fede's guide is gone, the last revision was well made and it was a good guide. I know a lot of people dislike it for having a "tulpas are very much like imaginary friends" philosophy, but I didn't think that was a problem.

 

Plus, bad guides can almost always be fixed. The guide I thought was racist was trying to justify slavery in the guide itself- which I don't think is acceptable. That needs to be taken out, reworded, rethought. In theory, any guide, no matter how bad, can be cleaned up and reorganized into a better guide. If they took that out, took out the unreasonable expectation a tulpa can be your job coach, added some structure and examples, it could turn into an interesting guide on how a tulpa can motivate you. Sometimes the first phase can be really ugly, and the main thing I regret from that comment in the past was I didn't emphasize this for not knowing this and at the time. I was far less careful and constructive because I wasn't a GAT member, and I didn't learn the value of that until later.

 

As for harmful links- I think that's a more interesting and complicated question. The main censorship-wise thing the GAT had for off-site linking is if the page is consistent with the rules but the home page or website in general is not, then a warning should be provided. I think I know who you are talking about, and in this case, their content is hosted on a platform I think is okay to link to because it's not NSFW by default, and there is nothing wrong with the guides themselves. As for the social media plugs- it never came up as a question in the GAT, and I'm not sure if it would be overreaching on our part to give warning about a Discord community. I do agree the community wouldn't abide by our rules, but I don't feel too comfortable about applying our rules to a different community in the first place.

 

18 hours ago, Yakumo said:

Yeah, who is to decide this?

 

I am assuming ultimately me and the staff, and I'll give them a heads up given that this has generated a lot of discussion while I was away. Given how this discussion has evolved, I'll make this a lot more clear when I finish the guidelines. However, a final decision shouldn't be reached unless there was discussion on the subject and extended discussion among the staff (and that includes Black Wizard's and Tulpa's guides as well).

 

I can't share my thoughts further on this, I have to go and I may not get the chance to look over this until later tomorrow.

I'm Ranger, Gray's/Cat_ShadowGriffin's tulpa, and I love hippos! I also like cake and chatting about stuff. I'm undecided on Rosalind or Rosalin, and my male name is Ronan. You can call me Roz but please don't call me Ron.

My other headmates have their own account now.

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Thanks, sounds reasonable as expected.

However the issue I mentioned is with old guides whose authors are no longer active and reachable. So what to do? Staff removing / amending 'controversial' parts without the author's consent effectively makes them into new guides. I admit this is not something giving me sleepless nights meaning I couldn't care less but still it leaves a bad aftertaste. We live in times where language and ideas considered mainstream a few years ago apparently need to be 'corrected' or outright eradicated an I depise iconoclasm.

 

My 2cts:

Leave old guides alone. If people think they are outdated one can always make better new guides by recombining the best ideas of the old ones. There's no need to reinvent the wheel, but certainly it can be perfected. I think this is a reasonable approach. Deleting or 'cleaning up' history pretending it never existed is not.

 

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I guess you might be talking about Tulpa's guide, but I feel like the big thing is good(/fine) guides, written by people who we shouldn't be endorsing, who specifically have linked to their own social spaces (like a Discord server) in that guide

 

 

but maybe that's just bias because the drug thing is a huge stretch and the ~sexual-sounding stuff feels like it was just going to be part of "Tulpa001's Guide" anyways, so yeah you really are changing the whole guide if you go and change that (don't btw, but I don't super care if it gets moved back to submissions..?)

Hi, I'm one of Lumi's tulpas! I like rain and dancing and dancing in the rain and if there's frogs there too that's bonus points.

I think being happy and having fun makes life worth living, so spreading happiness is my number one goal!

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Trying to break down my thoughts.  I'm assuming you're speaking about Kopase and tulpa central here with the guides in question being the tulpamancy video guides that were published a while ago.

 

When I think about what I personally want to see from a community like .info - I want to know what is there.  If a site is hiding something from me, protecting me from myself, deciding that I will become a racist if I view a guide link and see a community full of them, that really gets on my nerves.  I generally want to see everything that is available when I visit a website, even the bad stuff, and I'd generally prefer that quality filters are really strictly about quality of the guides and how effective they're going to be at helping people to make tulpas.

 

But - if I did come to a site and I noticed a general trend of the guides and materials leaning a certain way - if the average guide was just casually mentioning racism and it seemed like half the people were scumbags, I wouldn't want to associate with the website at all and I would leave as well.  

 

Then there are bigger scale values.  Not being about me vising the site and the utility I get out of it, but the drive to ensure that as few people hold wrong or harmful views as possible and leveraging counters to anyone who expresses them. 

 

So you have to judge what's going on in this case if you're going to decide if it's going to be removed.

 

1 - How much information are you removing - are you composming how much information is on your website?

2 - How does your site appear?  Is this guide making you look bad.

3 - How is this going to impact bigger scopes?  Is this guide going to do harm in general if people read it?

 

I weight 1 in this case pretty heavily.  The guide in question is kind of a "common keystone" for a very large number of tulpamancers and its absence will be felt.  If someone can't find it on .info because it was removed since we don't like it, they're likely to hear of it elsewhere and go seek it out.

 

I do not see much impact in the case of 2.  The guide itself is pretty clean (as far as I'm aware - if there's anything really bad in it that may not be the case).  The title is fine and nothing about the guide would lead me to think, coming to dot info and clicking around, that this sort of view is present or representative of the community.

 

I see a much stronger case for point 3, but still not more significant than point 1.  Tulpa central is a 4-chan style community.  There are 4-chan communities all over the place, and this very community even started as one.  It's not super likely that the presense of these links are making any significant change in the opinions of anyone, and at worst I see it as an outlet for people to go to that helps keep the pressure off .info.

 

As far as I'm aware the guides don't really strongly advocate for people to join the communities, and the communities in question are unquestionably overboard, but I think it's pretty readily apparent and obvious to anyone who joins that they're getting into a 4-chan community.

 

Based on all that it doesn't really cross any lines for me.  If they were active advocates for something like white supremancy, or they were somehow leaking or pushing their viewpoint in other communities instead of growing their own, if they were an active threat to this community, that wouldn't be the case.  

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14 hours ago, reguile said:

If a site is hiding something from me, protecting me from myself, deciding that I will become a racist if I view a guide link and see a community full of them, that really gets on my nerves.  I generally want to see everything that is available when I visit a website, even the bad stuff, and I'd generally prefer that quality filters are really strictly about quality of the guides and how effective they're going to be at helping people to make tulpas.

 

17 hours ago, Yakumo said:

Leave old guides alone. If people think they are outdated one can always make better new guides by recombining the best ideas of the old ones. There's no need to reinvent the wheel, but certainly it can be perfected. I think this is a reasonable approach. Deleting or 'cleaning up' history pretending it never existed is not.

 

Why do people seem to not understand that moving a guide to drafts is not hiding or removing it? I've said this multiple times now and it feels like I'm not being heard. And that Ranger specifically said that a guide can always be edited to where it can be moved out of drafts? Except... I honestly think the author of the guide I'm talking about would absolutely not give a rat's ass whether or not their guide is moved or not or any criticism that is directed at them. They haven't been here in a while.

 

14 hours ago, reguile said:

But - if I did come to a site and I noticed a general trend of the guides and materials leaning a certain way - if the average guide was just casually mentioning racism and it seemed like half the people were scumbags, I wouldn't want to associate with the website at all and I would leave as well.  

 

That is something the staff of Tulpa.info need to consider. It's a paradox of, "We allow this bigot's guide because it's a good guide that doesn't inherently hold this bigot's views," but at the same time, you're still letting known bigots and abusers on your site. It makes me think to Jade and the fact that her stuff was purged when she was outed for her extremely abusive and cult-like behavior, so why purge one abuser's resources despite them supposedly being well-made, but not another's? I remember the reason was to protect people from coming into contact with her, which was the same argument I was making with this person's guide. It just... seems hypocritical and inconsistent? I just didn't think about it until now.

 

So what's more important? The intolerance of abusive people who do hold harmful views and act out on them? Or the information here? Like Yakumo said, old and harmful guides can be rewritten by other people not bigoted or harmful like the original creators. (But that brings in the question of if it's right to do so? Copyright? Public domain? How much would be changed? Do you have to credit the original author? Most guides don't mention anything about copyright except like... Methos's guide.)

 

14 hours ago, reguile said:

I weight 1 in this case pretty heavily.  The guide in question is kind of a "common keystone" for a very large number of tulpamancers and its absence will be felt.  If someone can't find it on .info because it was removed since we don't like it, they're likely to hear of it elsewhere and go seek it out.

 

I have never heard it be referred to as that by anyone besides you, but you're not wrong that people will likely seek it out if they want it that badly. Again, this might be a case of .info's image because this bigot does have a reputation for their behavior that's become common knowledge in the community, especially larger ones like #RedditTulpas. It's not my place to decide, though.

 

14 hours ago, reguile said:

I do not see much impact in the case of 2.  The guide itself is pretty clean (as far as I'm aware - if there's anything really bad in it that may not be the case).  The title is fine and nothing about the guide would lead me to think, coming to dot info and clicking around, that this sort of view is present or representative of the community.

 

I know for a fact that there are resources designated as guides that are... pretty bad, not to mention other things on that site that are questionable at best. I haven't checked in a while, though, and for good reason.

 

14 hours ago, reguile said:

As far as I'm aware the guides don't really strongly advocate for people to join the communities, and the communities in question are unquestionably overboard, but I think it's pretty readily apparent and obvious to anyone who joins that they're getting into a 4-chan community.

 

The author's charisma in the guide makes it seems like they're inviting you to a friendly and fun-loving community, and that's how I was tricked into joining it. Because from my memory, they actively encourage users to join those communities and the guide itself does not give 4chan vibes. As some people should know, how the author in question presents themself in their guide is completely different than how they present normally.

 

Hi, I like reading guides.

I also write guides; check out my guide here:
Tulpamancy: Guide into the Strange and Wonderful

 

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I believe we've said this before, but mods can very easily put a little disclaimer about tulpa central and kopase being less-than family-friendly or whatever. As far as the whole Jade thing, who? I feel like I may have heard of it somewhere, but I can't say for certain. Did she have any valuable resources to the community? If she didn't, then this isn't an apples to apples comparison. Hell, I may not like Kopase or tulpa central, but he still isn't a cultist. 

 

Has Kopase personally wronged you, out of curiosity? 

Hey there, the name's Bryan. In system Re:Body(In order of the rainbow): 

Sean, Esper, Blinky, Compact, Janey, Kyle, Gwen'd, Gwen, Emily, Rollin, Waynin, Trease, Layy, Justin, Chloe, Zachery, and Elliot. 

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Bryan is currently swapped in as host, Esper is sub-rep. 

 

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2 hours ago, IceCreeper909 said:

I believe we've said this before, but mods can very easily put a little disclaimer about tulpa central and kopase being less-than family-friendly or whatever.

 

Yeah, I don't see why the staff can't just do this. I'd like to know if I was reading something written by a nazi or not.

 

2 hours ago, IceCreeper909 said:

As far as the whole Jade thing, who? I feel like I may have heard of it somewhere, but I can't say for certain. Did she have any valuable resources to the community? If she didn't, then this isn't an apples to apples comparison.

 

Jade was... the closest thing to a leader this community ever had. She provided both video and written resources on things like switching, and she even posted academic papers on Tulpamancy (although they are very flawed); I'd say Jade contributed far more than the person I'm talking about. That's the whole reason I'm bringing her up.

 

2 hours ago, IceCreeper909 said:

Has Kopase personally wronged you, out of curiosity? 

 

If I said Kopase threatening to kick anyone who breathed in his direction as "wrong[ing]" me, he would've technically wronged pretty much every person who's set foot in his server that isn't a white supremacist and Kopase boot-licker. I've had far worse dealings with other people in this community than him when only speaking on personal experience, but I'm not one of the many people he's harmed, and I've seen the horrible things he's done to some of them. Why else do you think I know that he's an abuser?

 

Hi, I like reading guides.

I also write guides; check out my guide here:
Tulpamancy: Guide into the Strange and Wonderful

 

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the community didn't purge Jade's stuff, Jade did that herself, and the community did its best to preserve what it could. you can still find her switching guide and papers if you look. also, I think that Kopase's guide is worth a lot more than Jade's stuff, since her switching guide is kind of bad and she admitted to falsifying the data in her papers, while Kopase's guide is actually fairly good. also, Reguile is correct in saying that his guide is a keystone; when it came out it was very widely acclaimed, and if people move it to submissions without a very defendable reason, word will eventually spread and there will be drama and backlash

 

I think that it would make sense to put something at the beginning of Kopase's guide to warn that the discord server and youtube channel associated with it contain questionable content, sort of like what we did with Shinyuu's articles. it's a bit different since the notice in Shinyuu's articles are specifically about nsfw content, but they would both basically be saying "the specific guide/article in question is approved of by tulpa.info, but the everything else associated with it is for your own discretion"

I have a tulpa named Miela who I love very much.

 

 
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10 hours ago, Breloomancer said:

also, Reguile is correct in saying that his guide is a keystone; when it came out it was very widely acclaimed, and if people move it to submissions without a very defendable reason, word will eventually spread and there will be drama and backlash

 

I shudder to think how many views Kopase's videos have gotten since I last checked a few years ago, knowing what he openly advocates for on his channel. And honestly? I'm pretty sure the reason why it's so "very widely acclaimed" is because his guides are the only video guides, his charisma in his videos, and he basically set up a monopoly on it because no-one else has had the drive to make video guides (apart from like, Longbow, which the GAT shot down pretty hard before it was dissolved) when it's been highly requested by the community for years. Like, let's face it, practically 99% of guides are in text and regrettably, there are people who can't absorb information from text guides very well, but they can with videos. Kopase simply fills that niche.

 

As for the "defendable reason," is a creator being nearly every form of -phobic, a white supremacist, and is also an abuser not a defendable reason? Because like, the only people I can imagine defending that are the people on his server who blindly follow him. I.e. people who wouldn't listen to reason. However, I do understand why Tulpa.info doesn't want to have to explain that to every person who asks about it despite Kopase's bigotry and his unwillingness to change being common knowledge, at least in the circles I reside in.

 

11 hours ago, Breloomancer said:

I think that it would make sense to put something at the beginning of Kopase's guide to warn that the discord server and youtube channel associated with it contain questionable content, sort of like what we did with Shinyuu's articles. it's a bit different since the notice in Shinyuu's articles are specifically about nsfw content, but they would both basically be saying "the specific guide/article in question is approved of by tulpa.info, but the everything else associated with it is for your own discretion"

 

I second this.

 

Hi, I like reading guides.

I also write guides; check out my guide here:
Tulpamancy: Guide into the Strange and Wonderful

 

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3 hours ago, Luigi.exe said:

As for the "defendable reason," is a creator being nearly every form of -phobic, a white supremacist, and is also an abuser not a defendable reason? Because like, the only people I can imagine defending that are the people on his server who blindly follow him. I.e. people who wouldn't listen to reason. However, I do understand why Tulpa.info doesn't want to have to explain that to every person who asks about it despite Kopase's bigotry and his unwillingness to change being common knowledge, at least in the circles I reside in.

it's a good reason to not like kopase as a person, but it doesn't really have anything to do with the guide itself, unless you can show some way that kopase's bigotry and abusiveness is represented in the guide

I have a tulpa named Miela who I love very much.

 

 
"People put quotes in their signatures, right?"

-Me

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