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Question about switching and wonderland immersion.


neo

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 I've seen other people reports about switching and I'm wondering if I'm missing something.

 Multiple people have reported that when they switch, their host-self can be fully immersed in wonderland while the tulpa controls the body.

 

 Whenever I try to switch, I can allow the tulpa to control the body but the my host-self just stays there in the background as the tulpa did before switching, I don't go anywhere or feel any different other than not being in charge of moving the body.

 

 So for people that have experienced wonderland immersion from switching with your tulpa, do you experience this wonderland immersion first hand as the host-self, as if you were really there? Or is it more of an indirect feeling that the host-self was somewhere else?

 

 If switching can allow me to be more immersed please share some tips, because if that's the case I may have been doing it wrong.

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There's no right or wrong way here. Everyone's different. We haven't tried switching, but I couldn't imagine myself being completely unaware of what my body's doing just because I'm not in charge of the steering wheel. If we switched, for us it would no doubt be like you describe. I'd ride shotgun, to continue the car theme, but I'd still very much be in the car and aware of the road ahead even if I wasn't the one behind the steering wheel. I don't think I'd personally be able to achieve the level of disassociation required to tune myself out completely.

Edited by Etna
Edited for clarity.

Doc (she/her) = Host

Franklyn (he/him) = Tulpa

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3 minutes ago, Etna said:

There's no right or wrong way here. Everyone's different. We haven't tried switching, but I couldn't imagine being completely unaware of what the body's doing just because I'm not in charge of the steering wheel. For us it would be like you describe. I'd ride shotgun, to continue the car theme, but I'd still very much be in the car and aware of the road ahead even if I wasn't the one behind the steering wheel.

 

Yeah that's pretty much what I've experienced as well.

I'd like to try full dissociation if such a thing is even possible, I don't really see the point in switching for me if it's not that.

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12 hours ago, neo said:

Whenever I try to switch, I can allow the tulpa to control the body but the my host-self just stays there in the background as the tulpa did before switching, I don't go anywhere or feel any different other than not being in charge of moving the body.

 

This is tulpa position. If you're disconnected from reactions and emotions then that's watcher position. Watcher position is like watching a movie of someone else doing something but from their perspective.

 

12 hours ago, neo said:

Multiple people have reported that when they switch, their host-self can be fully immersed in wonderland while the tulpa controls the body.

 

Technically no one needs to control the body to be fully immersed in wonderland. To reach full immersion you need full dissociation with reality. In my experience before tulpamancy this state is observed in meditation and when you're "zoned out" such as daydreaming to the point that you have zero memory, reaction or sense of the real senses. It's not exclusive to tulpamancy and doesn't require any headmates. 

 

Given that, in my experience, I can reach this stare on demand and wonderland is real enough. Especially considering I have hyperphantasia though it's not required. In my experience wonderland is on the level of lucid dreaming but with full memory retention, no annoying dream logic, but visualization takes effort where dream and hypnagogic "visualization" is free. At my level, it's not equivalent to an especially vivid dream, but fully equivalent to any memory of reality. Also hypnagogic and occasional dreams reach super-real experiences that aren't possible for me to reach outside that state of consiousness.

 

12 hours ago, neo said:

 If switching can allow me to be more immersed please share some tips, because if that's the case I may have been doing it wrong.

 

You need full dissociation. In my experience that's as far as I have taken it outside of an altered consiousness such as deep meditation, hypnagogia or dreaming.

 

Additionally I have experienced full dissociation while a headmate was switched in, however in my experience it's a linear singular consiousness so there will only ever be one experience at a time. Therefore if you're fully immersed in wonderland and your headmate is fully switched in, you can not co-experience a simultaneously; however, you can switch back and fourth quickly, check in, and in this can "catch-up" memory so that both experiences can be registered separately. However when one is active the other is not generating full memory. I believe the memories exist because I have been able to access them after but they're not in sequence fluidly. This has been misinterpreted as "made up on the spot" but there's nothing to make up if something already exists and why would it even matter? I believe this is a choice of interpretation.

 


 

So in short, yes, but you will only ever be as good as full dissociation for full immersion and there's not any consious way in my experience to fluidly amd simultaneously experience both realities simultaneously. This doesn't mean they can't be experienced concurrently and remembered fluidly but the experience is a switch back and fourth kind of thing unless you switched fast enough not to notice and that can appear experientially as parallel. I've spent a lot of time resolving that experience and this is my interpretation.

 

Lastly what can the body (Body OS) do without anyone switched in or paying attention? 

 

Practically anything that doesn't require novel thoughts in my experience. There is no memory of reality generated if you don't check in. The Body OS can drive, walk, do chores, sit like a lump, give canned responses, do anything it's done before or been trained to so through repetition but it doesn't think on its own so it won't do your homework for you unless it's something you've done many times before and requires no novel thought.

 

3 hours ago, Etna said:

I couldn't imagine being completely unaware of what the body's doing

 

I can and do regularly and this isn't exclusive to tulpamancy, see above.

 

 

 

Edited by Bear
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3 hours ago, Bear said:

To reach full immersion you need full dissociation with reality. In my experience before tulpamancy this state is observed in meditation and when you're "zoned out" such as daydreaming to the point that you have zero memory, reaction or sense of the real senses. It's not exclusive to tulpamancy and doesn't require any headmates. 

 

 I can trigger this 'zoned out' state too, but I thought it meant some deeper level of dissociation than that, like a dream where you couldn't even tell where the body is and so on. I guess I misunderstood what people mean by full immersion.  

 

3 hours ago, Bear said:

At my level, it's not equivalent to an especially vivid dream, but fully equivalent to any memory of reality.

 

 This is somewhat disappointing, if that's the case that means I've already reached this level of 'immersion' people are saying and it wasn't what I expected.

 

3 hours ago, Bear said:

This has been misinterpreted as "made up on the spot" but there's nothing to make up if something already exists and why would it even matter? I believe this is a choice of interpretation.

 

 Well both are different degrees of self deception, but the difference is the experience itself IMO. It would be the difference between eating your favorite food right now from remembering having just ate your favorite food a moment ago. Maybe there is a level further where this wouldn't matter but I definitely rather have the experience first hand.

 

3 hours ago, Bear said:

So in short, yes, but you will only ever be as good as full dissociation for full immersion and there's not any consious way in my experience to fluidly amd simultaneously experience both realities simultaneously.

 

 Yeah I didn't think that would be possible either. I was more trying to understand whether or not this immersion people were speaking of was something else that I didn't practice yet.

 

Thank you for the clarifying answers.

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1 hour ago, neo said:

some deeper level of dissociation than that, like a dream where you couldn't even tell where the body is and so on.

 

The only difference is it's not sleep, so BodyOS notifies me whenever it encounters either end of task or something that requires thought and that's not often.

 

I assure you I have "come back" with complete amnesia of why I am at the wrong destination or how the tasks were done incorrectly.

 

1 hour ago, neo said:

This is somewhat disappointing,

 

I'm not saying it's impossible, but I haven't experienced it yet.

 

1 hour ago, neo said:

I've already reached this level of 'immersion' people are saying and it wasn't what I expected.

 

If you did, I'd expect you'd be more satisfied with it.

 

1 hour ago, neo said:

the difference is the experience itself IMO.

 

That's all I can report on.

 

1 hour ago, neo said:

I definitely rather have the experience first hand

 

And it's possible in my experience. If it's in reality but imagined or hallucinated it's called imposition. This can be trained to be exactly as reality. I haven't done this on demand but I have experienced it on multiple occasions.

 

In mindspace it can be exactly as reality in memory only in my experience. Otherwise it's mostly a visual/auditory experience for me.

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Bear said:

I can and do regularly and this isn't exclusive to tulpamancy, see above.

 

I was talking about me personally being unable to picture being able to achieve such a degree of disassociation OP was asking about, not doubting or questioning your (or anyone else's) experience or skills in any way. I fully believe it's doable/achievable, just not by me personally. And I'm fine with that. More to the point, we're both fine with that. Who knows what I might get up to if she ain't there to supervise, ah? 😁

Doc (she/her) = Host

Franklyn (he/him) = Tulpa

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No worries, Bear. 🙂

 

---

 

Neo, the point I was trying to get to is that please don't think of yourself as a failure if you only manage to achieve "back seat driver" switching (so to speak), because we're all different and we all work in different ways. For some people things like imposition is easy, they can see and hear their Tulpas as vividly as if they were a separate flesh and blood person, while for others it might actually be impossible to achieve. And that's fine. (Reading that full imposition is rare took a lot of pressure off for me!)

 

Sure, it's not the full Tulpa 4k HD experience you were hoping for, perhaps, but if you practice and practice and practice and still don't seem to get any closer whatever method you try, it doesn't have to mean you're failing at it. For some people fully disassociated switching comes naturally to them, others can get there eventually by practising a lot, and some might never be able to fully disassociate because that's not what their brains happen to be good at. You'll only find out exactly where you fit on that scale by trying and seeing what happens. Perhaps you'll be great at it. Perhaps you won't, but find that you're excellent at something completely different. Either way is equally valid, hence "there's no right or wrong".

Doc (she/her) = Host

Franklyn (he/him) = Tulpa

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The watching from the background experience is the standard these days, though it's also possible to go inactive as a tulpa may do. There are relative few people who claim to have an immersive first person real time experience in the wonderland while switched out, if you would like to achieve that you may have to learn directly from those people. We have not been able to replicate the effect at this time, and do not expect others learning to switch to have this experience either. That may be disappointing, I know. 

Maintaining one's headmates in wonderland as the fronter goes about their day is still a fun and possible thing to achieve. Simply check in on them frequently, talk with them, carry forward continuity on what happened when the fronter was too busy to check, etc. Some hosts find it very pleasant to be the one hanging out in the wonderland being attended to by their tulpa.

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