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Tulpas have free will?


motorheadlk

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>Philosophy

>Evidence

Oh man, you sort of answered yourself already. All the evidence anyone could bring would be how they personally feel about the matter, i fear. Let us also say that tulpaforcing potentially provides great insight into your own thought process, and helped me realize how little of what comes to mind i can actually consciously influence, for instance (and to remain somehow on-topic). And if you can't even have control over your own thoughts, what can you say about your actions then? It's probably a question one has to answer for themselves if i've ever seen one (putting aside the fact that i think everyone should stop relying on hard proof for everything, but whatev).

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>Philosophy

>Evidence

Oh man, you sort of answered yourself already. All the evidence anyone could bring would be how they personally feel about the matter, i fear. Let us also say that tulpaforcing potentially provides great insight into your own thought process, and helped me realize how little of what comes to mind i can actually consciously influence, for instance (and to remain somehow on-topic). And if you can't even have control over your own thoughts, what can you say about your actions then? It's probably a question one has to answer for themselves if i've ever seen one (putting aside the fact that i think everyone should stop relying on hard proof for everything, but whatev).

 

The basis of philosophy is evidence you know, but itself is just conjectures upon evidence, anyway, Descartes was a philosopher who you could say had more foundamented beliefs than anyone else, and logically proved something that no scientist had done (thought some consider him as a scientist too, but he is not of the empiric "lineage" of them).

 

Now, I just stated that they don't have free will because unlike ourselves (which I suppose have free will) can't do things they don't want, and that seems fair to me, unless

some random piece of shit

comes to say that if we do something then we actually want to do it, then I would have to

cock slap the shit out of his face

until he comes to his reasonings, but other than that, I'd say that this is one of the few differences between tulpa and humans, I mean, if someone created a tulpa while he was a child, and the tulpa actually possessed his body, and so the child's mind was faded into the subconscious and the tulpa managed to switch bodies forever, then how would this conscience be different from the human?

 

I mean, most people here seem to believe that no host can actually be denied the right to return to his body, but as long as the brain is fooled into thinking that the tulpa is the actual owner (and obviously tulpas have the ability do fool the brain, since once they're imposed they're hallucinations and once they're vocal they're audible hallucinations), then the tulpa could have control over the owner of the body, of course, this would only happen if the host was stupid enough, either too naive or too young (a child would probably be the perfect target for a malificient tulpa).

 

How could you say that you're not a tulpa and you dissipated your host and can't remember? Is there any way to answer that other than saying that you can do things you don't want to? You could ask "Why would it matter?", but well, as you probably know, tulpas don't actually die, just fade into the unconscious, and can be revived, so the same should happen to the original host of the body possessed by a tulpa, if I were to discover I'm a tulpa, I would run like hell to search my actual host on the subconscious, I mean, I truly wouldn't have the right to kick him out. And it would be interesting to know what the original owner would look like.


[[

Gimme an example of "doing something you don't want to do."

 

 

Only servitore have true free will.

]]

 

You never did that? It's like doing something you're not obligated to do and neither you want, but you do it anyway. Like, you're hungry but you could starve to death with enough willpower. You body/brain/unconscious wants food, yet you have free will to disobey every aspect of it and not to follow them.


Could you walk, first born? By these terms, Hosts and Tulpae have the same level of free will, as imposed by their circumstances. There are somethings we have control over, and some we don't. I theorize? Assume? Consider? Something. That Tulpae are like new born children in a physical shell, when attempting to 'drive.' Do I not have free will because I can't draw mechanical schematics, or play the guitar?

 

"Could you walk, first born?"

Nope, I didn't implied I had free will when I was a newborn, heck, you can't have free will unless you're actually conscious of yourself.

 

By these terms, Hosts and Tulpae have the same level of free will, as imposed by their circumstances.

No, they don't, there is circunstances where a human could loose his free will (like being hypnotized or such), or being in a non-lucid dream.

 

"There are somethings we have control over, and some we don't. I theorize? Assume? Consider? Something. That Tulpae are like new born children in a physical shell, when attempting to 'drive.' Do I not have free will because I can't draw mechanical schematics, or play the guitar?"

 

When you don't have knowledge of yourself, you can't have free will, because you can't differenciate what you want from what you don't and actually try to do what you don't want to.


"Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills", basically.

He can understand what he wants and he can choose not to follow it, that's free will. Deciding who you are/what you want is not not having free will, again, free will is not about defining yourself, is about following or ignoring what you want.

 

Does this mean only a god could have free will? Peharps just being able to do one thing also means to be able to do everything - so yeah, not being god equals not possessing even a shred of free will, in my opinion.

 

That's not having free will, free will is having the ability to choose based on the choices you have, it's NOT being able to determine every choice as possible and be able to pursue them all/any of it. That's being omnipotent, not having free will, what you think free will is has another name.

 

But yeah, i don't see how tulpae could have less free will than a being who has none by default. Certainly neither of us can prove any of this shit if we start from different assumptions, so let's say i don't have much of anything else to say atm.

 

You can say that all day, but yet I'll be here trying to convince you that you're wrong, seriously, what you think you mean by free will is wrong, free will is the ability to choose, not the ability to do everything, being free means being able to choose, not being able to have his will fullfilled. A man in jail may have free will, he doesn't have free "doing" or something like that.

 

Being able to follow a way of life until the very end, with no wavering, no regrets, no internal conflict, just playing your part in the stage, is the closest thing to actual "free will" i can personally think of. So yeah, servitors > tuppers > humans. Gods are shit-tier.]

 

This just goes to say how little of free will you actually know. Every tulpa survey I saw said that if they were a servitor once, they hated not being able to do what they wanted.

I'm brazilian and my english is not really good, I'll do every mistake you imagine, but I'll try to avoid them.

 

Tulpa: Kuruminha

Age: Began on the middle of october.

Form: My avatar.

Sentience: Confirmed.

Mindvoice: Not yet.

Working on: Visualization and Mindspeaking.

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Doing something you don't actually want to do just to prove you have free will is, well, not exactly a display of free will if you ask me. That tuppers aren't capable of going against what they perceive to be their own will because of (what they perceive to be) a greater reason, exactly like humans do, sounds very arbitrary to me. (So is the statement that one who lets a tulpa possess his body is necessarily naive/a child). If you're going to create tuppers with this in mind, you might find yourself to be surprised - if not in the beginning, in the long run. This is not to say i have much personal experience in the matter, but i honestly wouldn't be surprised at all if our (potential?) self-awareness were to be exactly "the same". I guess you could mentally bind your tuppers to be "incapable of free will", but i wouldn't know about it having any effect or lasting too much - and why would you even do that anyway? You want a pet or something? I wouldn't know, i don't think it's too healthy to enforce MPD with such a mindset.

 

EDIT: I might be mistaken, but i don't think your actions being completely determined from beginning to end qualifies as having free will, and by now i'm fairly convinced that humanity isn't quite able to break that cage. But yeah, i'm not trying to convince anyone here.

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I mean, I know they are sentient and all, but how much of what she wants is determined by what the host wants?

This thought just crossed my mind after thinking "How can so many hosts fall in love with their tulpa, and every tulpa be in love with them, without exceptions?"

I'm talking from what I've read, is there any host here who loves (I mean the LOVE thing, not the like thing) his tulpa and the feeling is not mutual, in other words, your tulpa doesn't love you? I know of tulpas who came to love the host without the host loving her, but that doesn't disprove what I supposed of what tulpas wanting/liking being something you decide, not her.

 

Well, you have to consider that tulpas don't really have anyone else to fall in love with. So it's not that unlikely that they would fall in love with their hosts. Especially not if he created them, consciously or not, with a wish for romantic companionship.

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But there are always exceptions. The loudest group happens to be those who tell all about their hawt tupper secks they did with the tupper they married.

The THE SUBCONCIOUS ochinchin occultists frt.sys (except Roswell because he doesn't want to be a part of it)

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But there are always exceptions. The loudest group happens to be those who tell all about their hawt tupper secks they did with the tupper they married.

 

seconding this

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Guest lolbatty

This would become a thread solely about the definition of free will, of course...

 

/agree

/bored with hypothetical arguments

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It's like, your tulpa can still surprise your conscious self, but everything she does will be determined by your subconscious, therefore she has no free will, given that she can't change your subconscious to what she wants (if she wants something that the subconscious doesn't determine himself).

 

Everything you do is determined by your subconsciousness therefore you have no free will.

If everything you do is not determined by your subconsciousness then why should everything tulpa does be determined by your subconsciousness?

From what I gather the prevailing view here on what is tulpa is that it is something that is highly connected to and emergent from your subconsciousness, but it is not identical to it.

That also happens to be an accurate description of what you are, so why should it be fully determined by your subconsciousness while you are not?

In addition to this, why can't tulpa alter your subconsciousness?

That way I understand it, information doesn't just go from your subconsciousness to your tulpa but also from your tulpa to your subconsciousness so why is it impossible for tulpa to alter parts of your subconsciousness that are related to it?

 

Now, I just stated that they don't have free will because unlike ourselves (which I suppose have free will) can't do things they don't want...

 

Ignoring the obvious impossibility of consciously doing something you don't want to, because if you are doing it you for one reason or another want to do it, would mind if I ask what is your statement that tulpae can't do that based on?

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[[

You never did that? [...] Like, you're hungry but you could starve to death with enough willpower. You body/brain/unconscious wants food, yet you have free will to disobey every aspect of it and not to follow them.

No, not really. I never had any reason to prove to myself or anyone else that I have "free will," or, "willpower." To do such things is a waste of effort for no gain and ultimately you're ignoring signals your body sends you that help you survive. Describing "free will" this way, it is a stupid thing to exercise.

It's like doing something you're not obligated to do and neither you want, but you do it anyway.

Glass just got done doing that.

]]

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You: The sum of your original specs at birth and everything that affected you until this point. You behave like anything else in a given system, predictably. We're all basically uber-complex machines behaving as our neurons dictate. Free will has no room in that equation.

That said, tulpae are probably slightly less independent in their will, at least early on.

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