Guest ramalama77

Short creation times

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All minimum length time limits are frontloaded.

 

Let's define 'frontloading'

 

dictionary.reference.com:

front-loading   [fruhnt-loh-ding]

adjective

1.

designed to be loaded, supplied, or tended from the front: a front-loading washer; a front-loading VCR.

 

wiktionary.org

Verb

to front-load (third-person singular simple present front-loads, present participle front-loading, simple past and past participle front-loaded)

(transitive) To assign to the initial periods.

We front-loaded the fees on the project.

We front-loaded the project with fees.

 

thefreedictionary.com:

front-load (frntld)

v. front-load·ed, front-load·ing, front-loads

v.tr.

To concentrate costs or benefits of (a financial obligation or deal) in an early period: They front-loaded their tax deductions.

v.intr.

To concentrate costs or benefits in an early period.

 

merriam-webster.com:

front–load transitive verb

 

Definition of FRONT-LOAD

 

: to assign costs or benefits to the early stages of (as a contract, project, or time period)

 

If you're going to use a buzzword to describe expectation, then at least use it correctly.

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It only takes a few days to come up with a roleplay character if you have an active imagination. Maybe less. In my experience here so far from lurking the board and irc for a few months, the people who are the most vocal about their tulpa admit to having zero who are close to being imposed. Personally, it looks like a lot of people don't have any distinction between a tulpa and a recurring daydream character. And of those in the IRC who speak "with quotes to represent their tulpa possessing their hands" I figure most just like the attention or wanted to join the bandwagon.

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Other people have answered better than i ever could have, so i'll just add that i don't believe in short creation times either unless proven crazy.

 

Cruse: in my experience, second (/third/fourth) tuppers tend to develop much faster. Like much much faster, and it probably has to do with gaining a better connection with your subconscious. Don't let it bother you. They do develop, you're just perceiving their development way better than before.

 

Also i do think it is possible to have tupper go "fully vocal" in a month or two without previous experience, in my opinion (and if you no-life the process): just not, well, a few days. I don't go to the IRC much and don't read progress reports, so i might not have a good perception of exactly how much of it is self-delusion and how much roleplaying. I do think self-delusion helps a lot and can be turned into something better, though, so i won't say the community has turned to shit just yet. (It probably will in a while when tuppers go mainstream, yeah).

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For most of these exceptionally quick people, they don't actually have a tulpa. Just a puppet. Or they're lying for attention. It was only until the idea was proposed somewhere that a tulpa could become fully formed within a week or two except for imposition that people began to have these extremely quickly created tulpae with supposed abilities surpassing those with much more dedication. For years the average expectancy for a fully formed tulpa was around 6-12 months on average. Once it arrived beaten and bruised at /mlp/ it was 6 months. Then with tulpa.info's creation, about 4-6 months. This can be explained by methods drastically improving as the phenomenon grew. But there is absolutely nothing that would warrant a fully vocal tulpa within a few weeks. And with the abomination that is /mlp/'s "tulpa general" threads, people are claiming to have fully imposed tulpae coming literally out of nowhere within a month or less. My prediction is that within a couple of months people will be claiming to have fully vocal tulpae within a single day.

I disagree, and I first present this pasta HERE.

 

In short, while we didn't tell people that tulpae will be vocal in a matter of days, we just didn't tell them that it would take months. Chupi made posts such as this one, and we started encouraging people to trust in their tulpa and believe that what they're getting is not 'puppeting' but actual sentience.

 

I'm sure you remember that topic by White Russian, where he was saying this exact same thing. However, I can cite tulpae who were vocal early on -- and their creators thought they were just petting like you assert. One of those tulpae, Lauren, is now imposed, and she was actually one of the first to state "There is no such thing as subconscious parroting/puppeting." Other early tulpae who have succeeded in possession and other feats that would show they're not simply being puppeted have also been vocal very early.

 

The reason why? It's simple. It's all in your head. If you go into this believing that it's going to take month and months for this, your mind will make it happen. Further, according to the surveys, tulpae have said narration is one of the most important factors to this process. I would assume this is because narration helps establish to your mind that something is there, and thus you will believe something is there, and thus your mind will make it real.

 

Well, another thing we've been doing when members would first come into the IRC, is we would tell them that they should bear in mind that their tulpa is sentient and sapient from the very start of the process, and they should be treated as such.

 

So now, instead of members who will think that their tulpae will start out as this lifeless doll and grow sentience over time, after they've finished putting X hours into visualization on smell, personality, etc., they are going into this thinking that their tulpa will be sentient from the start. Since I believe that the biggest driving force behind a sentient tulpa is the belief that they're sentient, this should help establish earlier sentience.

 

In other words, they're working on making it vocal from the start, instead of working on visualizing its body for hours and hours from the start, they're treating it like it's sentient and narrating from the very beginning, instead. If you guys have any confusion as to what I mean from what I'm saying, please let me know, I'll try and further clarify.

 

On a side note, wasn't Dane's second tulpa vocal in week?

 

EDIT:

On the subject of imposition, I attribute this to seeing people interested less and less in imposition and more into switching and possession. After the tulpa is vocal, people usually come to a crossroads: Impose my tulpa, or work on possession with my tulpa. I've seen a lot of people going towards the latter these days; I must admit that even Chess and I are working on possession recently, though we're still passively imposing (as we've been, all summer).

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Imposition > possession.

 

Anyhoo, i have to disagree with the sentient from the start thing. Or rather it's true to a degree, but tuppers also grow with time and i don't think that growth is simply a matter of belief. (It is all based on my personal experience, though). Like, you have to be able to perceive what happens in your mind well (this i imagine taking some time, expecially for people who don't exactly live inside their heads) in order to see a tupper go vocal in a matter of days, and even then said tupper is not exactly what you'd call "fully" sentient/vocal either. I don't perceive this to be linked to any preconceived notion on my part either. I don't think believing can make anything happen, even if "it is all in you head". You don't have full control over your mind. Being open to possibilities is fine and can speed up things a lot. Baselessly believing is just deluding yourself, which is fine too but can't be held up too long if you're going to be completely honest with yourself about your actual achievements.

 

Of course, i don't think expecting tulpaforcing to take a certain amount of time is any more imtelligent a strategy either, since beliefs can hold your perception (and therefore experience) back too if you cling to them too strongly. I also don't think we should start judging people basing on time taken and/or previous experience with stuff. I just don't think holding the exactly opposite mindset will do any good either.

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One of the major reasons why tulpae were so slowly created is because of fronloading in Dane's guide about how long they will take and about how everything you hear before X amount of hours is probably parroted response instead of real one.

 

I have always wondered this since I started lurking the forums.

How is it possible for anyone to create a tulpa in such a short period of time? This process is complex and intricate, and in order to create an advanced and independent thought form months if not years are needed. I hear of people having fully sentient tulpa within four days! How?! The only explanation I can think of is that these tulpa must be very rudimentary and poorly conceived. Any thoughts?

I have to ask how is it not possible to create a fully sentient tulpa within few days, hours or even minutes. How do you know? Have tulpae been studied by scientists in very controlled environment, so that we can say with certainty that the process of creation is complex and takes long time?

 

It was only until the idea was proposed somewhere that a tulpa could become fully formed within a week or two except for imposition that people began to have these extremely quickly created tulpae with supposed abilities surpassing those with much more dedication. For years the average expectancy for a fully formed tulpa was around 6-12 months on average. Once it arrived beaten and bruised at /mlp/ it was 6 months. Then with tulpa.info's creation, about 4-6 months. This can be explained by methods drastically improving as the phenomenon grew.

I disagree with that first sentence. Posts like this and how many tulpae report that they always were sentient from the start or near the start, make me think that tulpae are fully sentient from the start and vocalisation is just few steps ahead of that. I assume such people were always here, but were ignored or accused of RPing by people that didn't want to believe them, or they didn't bother posting like many others don't because they don't want to be called RPers.

 

Here is an interesting thought: What if some people on 4chan pretended to have tulpae by just saying what you wanted to hear from them (e.g. that they got their tulpa vocal after X hours) or maybe fronloading made people slower as your expectations can easily effect the results (ever heard of placebo and nocebo effect?).

 

But there is absolutely nothing that would warrant a fully vocal tulpa within a few weeks.

There is also absolutely nothing that would say that you can't have fully vocal tulpa within few weeks or less unless you take anecdotes as facts.

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Imposition > possession.

 

Possession > imposition.


The THE SUBCONCIOUS ochinchin occultists frt.sys (except Roswell because he doesn't want to be a part of it)

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It doesn't really make sense from a theory point of view for tulpas to be sentient from the start. While believing it is very beneficial and can go some way to explaining fast creation times, it's probably not actually true. It would mean that anything you think about for a bit is sentient, which isn't true.

Creating a sentient tulpa can't be possible within an extremely short time, because a tulpa is a significant mental change. Within the mind, anything isn't possible. Assuming we are holding the view that tulpas actually are sentient and all that, then creating a tulpa isn't trivial. To create a sentient being within your mind isn't something that you can do in a matter of minutes or hours, because the mental framework for it must be laid down, and given the immensity of the creation we have to assume that it takes quite something to do.

 

Bear in mind too that thinking you have a tulpa is possible when you don't. If you listen to your own mind and expect a response, then a response may come, even if a permanent and sentient structure isn't there.

 

Besides which, treating as sentient from the beginning of the creation process has been around for a while. Phi said it back in May; this contains most of the stuff that Pleeb is attributing to faster times now.

 

As a note on tulpa memories of being sentient, that's unreliable. It is not unreasonable for the mind to fabricate or fill in the gaps when it comes to memories.

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The problem with short creation times lies in definition really. I think that the whole tulpa community suffers because of the lack of concise definitions of these terms (among other downsides).

 

Although the usual answer for this would be that the creation times heavily depend on your background in visualization, strength of your imagination and subconscious and how long were the creation sessions, I think that the most overlooked feature here is actually how people define creation and imposition.

 

You don't really know how other people perceive the world in their minds (an interesting take on this was done by Hegel with his ideas on inverted world, but that's beside the point here) and how they perceive their tulpa in relation to the external reality. In short, you may not be aware how imposition is really manifested for other people. For example, your idea of imposition may strongly differ from other people's ideas what it means for a thoughtform to be imposed. They may genuinely think that their tulpa is imposed, while this sort of imposition does not have to correspond to your own terms. Perspective. That's all.

 

Myself, I don't see a reason why there should exist any rigid creation times at all. In my mindscapes I've met many thoughtforms that already had their own systems of beliefs, morals, their own manners of speech and so on, whatever would it take to make a being an actual person. I seriously doubt it if there are people who actually fake it since there's no need at all.

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