Jump to content

Struggling with a seeming contradiction


Have you struggled with this at all?  

8 members have voted

  1. 1. Have you struggled with this at all?

    • Yes
      4
    • No
      4


Recommended Posts

I've hit up a number of threads that speak to contradictions that other people have struggled with, but none of them spoke to the particular issue I'm trying to work out.

 

I've noticed, going through several guides and numerous threads, that there seems to be a conflict with respect to how one understands the tulpa’s sentience early on.

I'll illustrate what I mean by posting two snippits from a guide, written just a few paragraphs apart.

 

1. "Remember, the entire process is all about making yourself believe your tulpa is alive and sentient. While at first it won’t be able to talk, you have to act like it can talk and think. Do not think of it as 'not done,' don’t think 'when you can talk.' It’s already there, already alive. Keep that in mind."

2. "Don’t impose before they’re sentient. Personality and narration comes first, period. Imposing before they are sentient can completely ruin the process."

 

This is a slightly extreme example, speaking to imposition (which is pretty much always regarded as a fairly latecoming part of the process), but it still speaks to what's troubling me. You’re supposed to believe in their sentience as much as possible from the very start, but you also need to be able discern when they're "actually" sentient at some point well after you've started to know if they’re ready for other things.

 

My personal approach has been to believe in sentience as much as possible and hold off on any efforts to move past the barest fundamentals until she can talk or otherwise communicate with some ease.

But, then…

 

"don’t think 'when you can talk'"

 

I have yet to find a way around/through that conflict. I think most people just sorta fudge their way through it as best they can or there would probably be a guide that explained how to get around this seeming disconnect.

 

How can we reconcile the need to avoid thinking of newborn tulpae as nonsentient, incomplete, or otherwise lacking… while still keeping track of their stage of development for the purposes of knowing what to force?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah whoever wrote that second bit was on some great drugs man. Woah.

The THE SUBCONCIOUS ochinchin occultists frt.sys (except Roswell because he doesn't want to be a part of it)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's probably more about opening paths of communication rather than working on the sentience of a tulpa, since they are sentient from creation. They are, however, a being that can mature with time, so, just as we aren't incomplete when we are teenagers, we are in development, so are they.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It isn't some kind of terror about ruining the process that concerns me. It's the fact that unless you intend to do absolutely everything all at once -- which I don't -- then you need to be able to determine when you have completed a given step.

 

If I want to wait until my tulpa can speak before beginning visualization, for example. out of a desire to have her input on the form we give her, it seems like it would be awfully tricky to avoid thinking of things in terms of "when you are able to speak," and consequently framing things in your head such that the tulpa is not conceived of as complete.

 

If I picked poor example quotes for the purpose of illustration, I apologize for the confusion. But the question holds regardless.

 

It's probably more about opening paths of communication rather than working on the sentience of a tulpa, since they are sentient from creation. They are, however, a being that can mature with time, so, just as we aren't incomplete when we are teenagers, we are in development, so are they.

 

I think I follow you, but... part of the trouble is with what one is actually in a position to do at a given stage.

 

I mean... okay, give me a moment for a quick preface: assuming sentience I get. That makes perfect sense to me.

Where I have trouble is the idea that I should avoid thinking of the tulpa lacking something that would enable certain things to be done were it present.

 

I get that, like a teenager -- or a toddler -- we should assume that a tulpa is /existent/. That the fact that the tulpa or teenager's continuing development does not make it any less /there/.

 

But... I don't know. That doesn't translate to "completion" for me. Just trying to figure out how I can even express what's troubling me, the semantics are driving me absolutely insane. I've been writing and deleting in a struggle to express my thoughts for an hour now, and I am literally pulling my hair out with frustration at my inability to adequately do so.

 

How do you "act like it can communicate" when its ability to communicate is a requisite for certain things you wish to do with it (such as, in my case, collaboration in the development of a visualized form).

 

Is a tulpa "complete" as soon as it achieves sentience?

If so, how does the need to treat it as complete have any bearing whatsoever on anything other than sentience? Why is it important to act as though it can talk if completion has nothing to do with its ability to talk?

If not, what else is involved? Where is development part of completion and where is it not? If an infant is "complete," but it has yet to develop the capacity for speech, how can I look at a newborn son or daughter and, regarding it as complete, not think about how much I'm looking forward to "when you can talk"?

 

Regardless of the words used, how do you behave as though a tulpa is capable of doing something when there is something you wish to do that can only be done once that capability is present?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is no "complete". Man, I've been alive for a while now, and I sure as hell am not completely. Compared to most tuppers I'm a lot older but I'm not any more complete than a lot of them. If you'e looking for "complete", you're not getting anywhere. A person keeps learning and growing, always changing.

 

If you want to split it into "stages", you do it until you feel like you have done enough and there's not much else you can do at the moment. Nothing stops you from going back to that "stage" and working more on it later, though. At that point your tupper might very well be telling you of their decisions and wants, so you'll have to take that into consideration, too.

 

I sure as hell did a little bit of this and a little bit of that when I felt like it after I felt like we had a good groove going on, and it hasn't bit us in the ass in the least.

 

A lot of getting vocal is not the tupper learning how to talk, but for you to learn how to listen. When you ask something, wait for a response before going on. Early on I guess I did a good job at realizing Roswell's listening to me, but I rarely gave him time to actually give me an answer, so I felt like an idiot when I realized that. Sure his first responses weren't exactly words, but it worked and there was understanding.

 

You two share a brain. There's a lot more to communication than just words. If the tupper wants to tell you something and you're not drowning their response in your own everything, you'll notice it. Deviations aka collaboration in the development of a visualized form tends to be one of those first moments when you go "wow, you really are there and you can do things!", even though there might not be any words yet.

 

You gotta learn how to chill. It's just like you two are people with a different language and they understand you but can't speak your language, but you can overcome that and learn how to understand each other. Later on even learning to speak a language that is understandable. Or early on, if it happens.

The THE SUBCONCIOUS ochinchin occultists frt.sys (except Roswell because he doesn't want to be a part of it)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hold opinions slightly different to Sands'. You don't need to avoid referring to your tulpa as not vocal like the plague: it's a given for both of you. It doesn't have to matter that your tulpa can't communicate. Honestly, it bothers no-one if you say "I'll start imposition when you can speak", because it'd be ridiculous to ignore the fact that they can't speak. I think it unreasonable to expect one to pretend that their tulpa is vocal when they are not, and not necessary either. Making a tulpa may require some suspension of disbelief, but you don't have to think that the tulpa is vocal right now for it to become so. Far more important is to stay out of the negative mindset that "my tulpa will never be vocal". As long as you bear in mind that your tulpa speaking is an immediate prospect, then there is unlikely to be an attitude problem.

 

I'd say a tulpa is 'complete' in base when they gain the ability to parallel process. In that sense, it's not sentience, not imposition, not anything else that defines it, but separation.

 

In short, I don't think you have to ignore the fact that your tulpa isn't speaking.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think it's pretending that they are vocal, just that obviously they know language as they can understand it. There's no pretending or ignoring the fact that they're not answering. Because well, if they won't answer, they won't answer. Why would you ignore that, that would be a jerk thing to do. Maybe at the moment they can't make any "sound" and it's not just you being unable to hear it, which it often seems to be. You gotta give them some time, but you gotta work for it yourself, too. Everything about this is teamwork, you can't expect them to do all the work and, well, you're not the only one doing the work, either.

 

I don't really see where I implied what you wrote I did in my post.

 

Just that we'll do x when you're y can be pretty silly if it leads into you getting disappointed by the lack of progress, which I've seen happen. And I hate those people always going how cool it will be and how much shit they can do together with their tulpa once they're imposed like they can't do shit together before that, but that's not really a thing for this topic.

The THE SUBCONCIOUS ochinchin occultists frt.sys (except Roswell because he doesn't want to be a part of it)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...