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8 months in, no vocality


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Ok, no, look, I'm not going down the same path of blindly assuming her responses are genuine again. Like I said, I had been doing that for the majority of the time I've had her, until I realized that it was just me pretending all along.

 

You're telling me that there's no way I'm parroting, but I know that's a lie. If I ask her a question and wait for a response, there's no response. The only times I get responses are when I exert effort on my own behalf to try and hear something, at which point it feels like I'm forcibly dragging an answer out of her. If she could talk on her own, she wouldn't need me to help her, right? Doesn't the entire definition of vocality lie in the tulpa's ability to speak separately from you and without any of your input?

 

I'm not going to lie to myself and assume everything she says is of her own accord. That isn't having a tulpa, that's just pretending to have a tulpa. That's not good enough for me and it certainly isn't good enough for her. So please, I know you're trying to help, but don't act like my problems are fake and that I just need to stop worrying, because blindly assuming that all the parroted responses were real is what cost me the majority of those wasted months. It didn't work. Maybe it works for others, but not me. I believed everything was going perfectly, but then I started to notice how she had no parallel processing abilities whatsoever, and how she depended on my own conscious decisions for virtually every aspect of her, and how she couldn't reply to me if I asked her a question and simply relaxed and waited for a response rather than making one up for her.

 

I'm not presuming that I can consciously control every fiber of her thoughts, because there aren't any thoughts in the first place. She can only think when I decide she should think, and I need a way to change that. I know you're trying to help me, but you're making assumptions about my situation that aren't true and giving advice accordingly. I need someone to help me with the situation I'm actually in. My tulpa is just barely above servitor level, and we're in dire need of figuring out how to fix that.

 

Deluding yourself at first does help. Doubts hinder your progress.

No.

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Deluding yourself at first does help. Doubts hinder your progress.

 

Maybe it helps, but I consider it counterproductive to believe in something that isn't true. It seems like it would make sense for your mind to make it true based on you believing in it, but that wasn't the case with us. It was just wishful thinking. I went along with it and, like I said, genuinely believed everything was going very well, but none of it was real.

 

I would be more than happy to return to that carefree, "possibly parroting but i'll just assume it's all coming from her" mindset if it would actually work for me. But the way I've come to see it from personal experience is that when I delude myself into thinking we've already made progress, the actual progress doesn't get made.

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Ok, no, look, I'm not going down the same path of blindly assuming her responses are genuine again. Like I said, I had been doing that for the majority of the time I've had her, until I realized that it was just me pretending all along.

 

You're telling me that there's no way I'm parroting, but I know that's a lie. If I ask her a question and wait for a response, there's no response. The only times I get responses are when I exert effort on my own behalf to try and hear something, at which point it feels like I'm forcibly dragging an answer out of her. If she could talk on her own, she wouldn't need me to help her, right? Doesn't the entire definition of vocality lie in the tulpa's ability to speak separately from you and without any of your input?

 

>Wants vocal tulpa

>Stuck on the stage where their thoughts will be similar to theirs

>Acknowledges he can't consciously control every fiber of her thoughts, because there aren't any thoughts

>Hears her mumbling

>Assumes he's parroting the mumbling as well

>Tries to contradict the truisms in his beliefs that he's consciously parroting her

>Sees that in order to get over the parrot syndrome, he would have to find methods to overload his conscious mind

>goes back to stating he notices no progress and acknowledges how she depended on his own conscious decisions for virtually every aspect of her

>Acknowledges he can't control every fiber of her thoughts

>Acknowledges how she depends on his own conscious decision for virtually every aspect of her

>Wants to go back to the naive delusion people apparently go through and to just believe in their tulpa, but considers that imagination and how the unconscious can make neurological connections to meet the desire with practice is wishful thinking

>Looping contradictions

>Only hope to save OP is deus ex machina when his tulpa actually speaks

>When in all actuality, if he used common sense and remembered that he has to find activities that overload his conscious critical factor, unconscious thoughts will have to take care of the rest

>Shows militant signs that he'll be impatient because he'll get bored "trying" common methods and guides, even though learning how to concentrate and actually do things would help him without having the pestering thoughts of doubt overcome him.

 

It's clear as day on how you're contradicting yourself, and in fact, we are helping you, but you presume we're thinking you're not being true or whatever that you're consciously parroting her. You admitted that you can't control every fiber of her thoughts, because there aren't any thoughts in the first place. Which again brings me back to how you want instant gratification from her being able to response, you expect her to be moderately fast in her response, so that you feel you're not parroting her.

 

I'm not presuming that I can consciously control every fiber of her thoughts, because there aren't any thoughts in the first place

 

Then you say before that,

 

and how she depended on my own conscious decisions for virtually every aspect of her,

Then this,

As for your parroting suggestion, well, that's kind of what I had been doing up until recently (as i've explained), although unintentionally. I really don't see how it could lead to the tulpa's independence, though. Especially considering it hasn't worked so far.

 

And how you think of vocality as this,

 

Doesn't the entire definition of vocality lie in the tulpa's ability to speak separately from you and without any of your input?

 

You're missing the point, you're reveling too much into the thought of the partial definition of vocality for tulpa. Because they are within the confines of your mind, in order for you to let them EVENTUALLY become more fluent on their own, they will INITIALLY need your faith and attention to them, and depending on how much you IMAGINE them actually being reaching that state, combined with you being able to find ways to overload your conscious mind so that the unconscious takes care of the rest (like it will always be doing), with practice, it will be difficult to think you're parroting them.

 

Vocality happens in gradual stages, just like how when people go around this forum, read guides, "try" them instead of "doing" them, only to end up making a Patched up blanket of guides that are inconsistent all over. Then they realize they have to unlearn what they learned, because they already know the underlying meaning behind the guide, and that all that's needed is for them to simply "do" and make their own methods.

But because they're still going through mental episodes with them parroting, because they've made claims that they "tried" the guides (when that's just an excuse from not doing), they feel no option is available. Which again, you've reached the breaking point, and it's clear that you have yet to find an activity where you're practicing how to overload your conscious mind.

 

If you truly did that, if you truly did methods that made you realize you have to use your imagination and power of expectations and sustaining that desire to have her talk to you fluently, you would be able to hear her easily. And again, like I've stated, there's a huge difference from being aware (giving attention) of their voices vs. being aware (giving attention) while you still have a conscious critical awareness that goes through cognitive processing that she depends on you parroting her, even when you stated you can't control every fiber of her being (then contradicted yourself).

 

What?

 

No one can really help you in the situation you're actually in, because you've gotten yourself in a gridlock with underestimating the power of imagination and how if you kept practicing (literally overloading your mind) and also still thinking those activities would be you deluding yourself into thinking you're not parroting her.

 

I'm not going to lie to myself and assume everything she says is of her own accord. That isn't having a tulpa, that's just pretending to have a tulpa. That's not good enough for me and it certainly isn't good enough for her.

 

So you're telling me when you lost faith in her actually being able to develop, to do things of her own accord, what makes you think that's actually good for her?

 

Here's the thing, you may or may not notice that you're reveling too much on the initial stages where we as host have to imagine our tulpa being in the situation we would like them to be, to be fluently vocal without much of our conscious input.

 

Conscious input involves having critical judgment (i.e. you're parroting her), and what I've been trying to tell you is that the guides that you claimed to try, but haven't had success in, you weren't committing yourself all the way to the other stages, because you kept sustaining the idea that it must be a delusion. You contradicted yourself (and you can't get yourself out of that one with the content you provided just now).

 

You should be able to know that when you do things more and train yourself to overload your conscious mind, you obviously wouldn't be able to fathom all of the information (such as finding ways to think sporadically yourself without giving much thought).

 

Because here's the thing, no matter what method you put, you're going to have your critical factor on steroids and say,

 

"Oh, but that's just deluding myself!"

"That's wishful thinking!"

"I can't lie and assume everything she says is of her own accord!"

 

You've underestimated the unconscious's imagination that can override your conscious thinking, you literally blocked that ability by becoming impatient and think exerting your attention is giving conscious input to what she'll say (when it's just conscious awareness that you're doing). If you can't imagine her being real to you, how in the world do you think she'll evolve?

 

Are you waiting for some deus ex machina? It seems that with the logic you've gone through, that the only way for you to be convinced is if she suddenly talks without you being able to think in advance. You're missing the whole point with faith with sentience, sapience and vocality.

 

You're supposed to go through implications, imagining, letting your desire allow the unconscious mind to make those neurological connections, and the more you do it, the more you overload your mind, you won't be able to fathom it all. And as you're sustaining your faith for the better, you'll start noticing slips of voices from her without you being able to plan it in advance. Your only problem is lack of self-esteem in your own mind, you're OWN MIND for crying out loud, and also lack of building concentration.

 

8 months times no concentration and not making gradual increments combined with anxiety is still ZERO.

 

You have to realize you have to at some point acknowledge that her thoughts and voice will initially be similar to yours, because she's within the confines of your mind, and you have to keep pouring your heart and soul into the methods so that her voice becomes natural after going through the STAGES of vocality. The unconscious mind is way more expansive with establishing identities and voices compared to your conscious effort in making one, but when you've destroyed and tried to judge all practical options, you threw them away, and gave up!

 

No one can help you except your tulpa, but you don't seem she can do things of her own accord (because presuming so is a bad thing for her apparently! If you can't even imagine that, then expect nothing from her), just like below:

 

I'm not going to lie to myself and assume everything she says is of her own accord. That isn't having a tulpa, that's just pretending to have a tulpa. That's not good enough for me and it certainly isn't good enough for her.

 

You can't have a dichotomy with the unconscious mind, it's part of you (and way more expansive in awareness than you are), and if you think otherwise, you're just confused. That's all.

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Let me just say that if I'm contradicting myself it's only because I'm really confused. That probably doesn't need to be said, but you're judging me as if I have more interest in being argumentative than in learning. Also (and apologies if i'm about to contradict myself yet again by saying something argumentative), you're making an awful lot of assumptions about my situation; you keep saying I want instant gratification, but all I want is to know what I need to be doing. I know it's not going to happen overnight, but I also know that it's not going to happen at all unless I know what I need to do, which is what I had hoped to find out when I made this thread.

 

But ok, I think I'm somewhat starting to understand at least one of the points you're trying to convey to me. I'm assuming you're telling me that I'm not actually parroting, and that the reason she doesn't have any parallel processing or anything like that is because I stopped believing in her before she had a chance to develop any of that, right?

 

I'm telling you, when I say I think I'm parroting, I'm only being honest. I'm not trying to push some sort of agenda or defend myself for the sake of my own integrity or anything like that, I'm only telling you what is apparent to me. Everything seems to be evidence that I'm controlling her. And ok, maybe that will become less true if I remove my doubts and stick to it for long enough, but the entire reason I'm where I'm at right now is because I realized that wasn't happening. Did I miss something in your posts where you addressed that? (It's an honest question, you give a lot to take in and it's one of the reasons for my confusion/hypocrisy.) Was I doing something wrong for her to not have had any parallel processing by the time I lost faith, or did I just not give it enough time?

 

And just in case you're going to tell me that she DID have parallel processing (i don't know if you are or not, i'm just preparing), she didn't. She couldn't do anything without my observation and pretty much stopped existing whenever I wasn't focused on her; when I left her alone for her to go design a wonderland, for example, she told me she had finished it but when we tried to go there we realized she hadn't actually done anything, and she couldn't tell me what she had been doing (even with the "parroting" i've been describing which you attribute to observance rather than conscious generation) because it was impossible for her to have been doing anything. (again, disregard this paragraph if i mis-predicted your intentions and you already knew we didn't have parallel processing down yet)

 

So anyway, can you please tell me what I was doing wrong before I changed my mindset and decided that I had been parroting? And what exactly I need to do for her to have better independence? I'm not asking for a quick easy way to reach my goal, I need to know which direction I need to go in to reach the goal in the first place. And I know you've probably already explained it to me, but as I said, it's hard to process everything you've said to me so far. Yes, I need you to spell it out for me.

 

EDIT: If I may completely and spontaneously contradict the primary stance I've taken throughout this entire thread, you might have a point in the whole not-actually-parroting thing. I mean, it seems suspicious that she can only talk when I choose for her to talk, but... the things she says when I'm "controlling" her don't really reflect my conscious thoughts. So, uh... maybe it really IS her. Like I said, it seems suspicious, but if me accepting it will lead to progress, then I guess there's nothing to worry about. Of course, still no parallel processing, so even when she's dependent from me it's only when I allow her to be independent, which is something I would like to know how to change. We can't do possession or anything like that; we've tried it plenty of times, and it's sort of the same not-sure-if-puppeting feeling i get when she talks, but I've been led to believe that legitimate possession happens when you relax and wait for your tulpa to do everything on its own without you feeling like you're helping them out, the plausibility of which I'm sure depends directly on your tulpa's parallel processing abilities (of which mine is currently lacking). So, vocality aside, what should I do to increase her general independence and parallel processing abilities? Have I just not been believing in her for long enough, or is there something else I've failed to do?

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I've been thinking for the past 2 days what sort of reply could someone write that could possibly help you with your issue.

I do have a hunch as to how such an answer would look like, but unfortunately it seems like it'd be like describing visual qualia to a blind man - it might just not be something that can be shared.

It may also be something that would be best done with a series of questions and in "person", do you go on the IRC channels by any chance?

 

Nevertheless, I'll give it a try.

 

I suspect that the main reason can't perceive your tulpa is because you might not truly believe she exists. Or at least, not exist in the sense of a separate autonomous personality within your mind.

You don't expect her to be able to answer, nor do you perceive her as an actual person (maybe as a hypothetical at least?), nor is there any implicit belief that she's capable of action or thought outside your own awareness.

Can you at least imagine what that would be like if she was like that?

 

If that's the case, here's my attempt at one short "guide" for actually getting her into such a state (note: this is merely one of countless other ways of achieving the same thing):

 

Get a bit familiar with how she looks (optional), get familiar with her personality (optional), get familiar with her voice - how she sounds like audibly (optional), get familiar with her presence (optional).

At least get your mind to know how those things feel, even when they're generated entirely by you, consciously.

You don't actually have to parrot or do any of those things, but it may make some of the next steps simpler on you.

 

Now stop doing everything you consider parroting, simulating, predicting her or thinking about what she should do or how she should do it.

Just let go of all the parts which you control with your will, directly or indirectly.

Now try to take it easy and relax. Let go of any worries or expectations of failure or anything that might be bothering you. Don't bother focusing too hard on her, just find someplace comfortable and relax.

Try and pay attention to your thoughts and your will, notice how you generate your thoughts, first you become aware of them, then you put them into words, voice or visuals and so on.

Become familiar with how it feels to think, notice your own moods and emotions.

Once you're familiar with 'yourself', imagine what it would be like if you had another person in your mind - a formless, voiceless person (like your tulpa), nevertheless a person - one capable of perception, will, thought and memory.

Such a person can still think their preconscious thoughts, can still have emotions/moods and do pretty much everything that you can do, although maybe quite weakly at start.

Try and imagine what it would be like to feel the essence of such a person - everything that they are.

This essence wouldn't be something static, it would let you perceive all their emotions/current mood/thoughts from the outside.

This sense of perception that you want to get at has to be continuous and not depend on you at all - it's all up to your unconscious mind to do this for you.

All you have to do is expect/implicitly believe that another person is there sharing your mind with you and that they have their own private thoughts.

After that, merely try to perceive them, don't focus too hard on it, it can be something very subtle, but it could also be quite jarring/surprising.

If you do it right, you'll eventually get to the point where you can suddenly get emotions or preconscious thoughts which you know aren't yours.

Such thoughts will feel different from yours in that you'll end up implicitly knowing that they're not yours. You won't really have to wonder if they're yours or not as you'll know they're not yours.

Sometimes when focusing the tulpa as a whole (the essence - which may have no visual or auditory component at all, or it could have such a component - it's something your subconscious will generate to help you make sense of the tulpa, but whatever it is, you'll know it's not you and won't feel as if it's generated by you), you'll get to the point where you may feel something like a "field" of emotions/thoughts which don't belong to you - they'll be there running by themselves, only observing them from the side, not doing anything to them.

Once you get such a perception going, you'll end up having an *implicit* belief in your tulpa's existence as now you have all those thoughts that are doing stuff by themselves outside your control.

As you have that, just input your own thoughts and emotions into it, direct your attention toward the tulpa and talk to her, expect that she can talk to you using her voice and emotions.

You can even try seeing if she can answer to you in preconscious thoughts or emotions. Keep in mind, now that you know how she feels like, you'll start getting thoughts from her that you know are hers.

These thoughts will feel very different and you won't need to consciously think if they're her thoughts or not - you'll just know.

The state of mind you need to be is something lighter than active visualization or focus, it's rather 'casual' and shouldn't take much effort from you. Most of the work will be done by your unconscious mind, all you have to do is suggest things to it using expectations.

Now that you can truly perceive your tulpa and she can send you emotions, she'll need to work on her will - have her control her form without you controlling it with your will. Let her send you visual or auditory imagery.

You can help her practice this by showing how to do some things, for example, you can try saying a phrase and having her repeat it like in Bin's or devano's method. Parroting is fine, but keep in mind what you control and what she controls.

When the tulpa does something, be it visually or vocally, it'll feel distinct from you using your active imagination, you'll just know it as you won't feel your will guiding it - the most you'll do is put yourself into the right state of mind and perceive whatever - and when the tulpa does something, your attention/focus will jump to her, it'll surprise you - it will also feel like her (just like her 'essence' feels like)!

Such a state of mind can even be something you can maintain throughout the day, for example, whenever her presence/essence pops up - and she can make that pop up by herself.

Such a state of mind is easy to achieve, it's simpler than active visualization and much "lighter".

Don't try to exert yourself when doing this as it's pointless - you need to learn to let go of conscious control over your imagination and let the unconscious start executing your expectations. About that: learn to stop expecting her to do anything other than be herself. Don't predict or parrot or control her - she can move on her own just fine - or if you do, that's okay too, just realize when it's you and when it's her - this is a sense that you'll have to develop when interacting with your tulpa.

Encourage her to put emotion in her voice and move her form naturally while speaking - it'll make everything so much more natural (and fun) for you - not only that, any possible doubts of parroting would be gone by then.

Once she's fluent like this, you can tell her to hide her preconscious thoughts too (optional, but it may also happen from the start, if she didn't do this already). After that, any possible doubts of her independence will be gone from your mind - if they weren't the first time you got thoughts which you implicitly knew weren't yours.

From your side, you'll need to learn to maintain this light state of mind throughout the day while doing normal activities, it should take a very small fraction of your focus, but usually less than "passive forcing" usually takes, especially if you were actively visualizing during it.

The trick here is that as you think and talk to the tulpa, you'll be continuously perceiving her think and react to you - without you having anything to do with that part of the thought process - you'll merely be seeing it on the side and it'll be very surprising and parallel to your thought process.

This is far easier than you may think it is, so just clear you mind and do it!

Once you're good at this, you can also move on to imposition - guess who has to do a lot of the work there again? Your tulpa. She has to place herself in the environment and do everything, you just have to watch and interact with her.

As for (unassisted) possession and the rest - that should come naturally once her will is strong enough.

Most of this is an exercise for you in keeping a sort of passive focus on your tulpa, your tulpa on learning to will/do things in the mind and you on learning to let go of control over your mind/imagination and just leaving the tulpa to work autonomously.

 

Good luck!

 

P.S.: It's perfectly fine to do this either with eyes open or closed. Daydreaming or doing it with eyes open may even be a bit easier as you may get less intrusive thoughts. The initial part may work better with eyes closed as it helps being able to ignore your senses to some extent when you try to find thoughts which are not generated by you.

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There's alot of discussion going on this thread, and i haven't really read much of it ( just too much to read ).

 

makogeddon I have a pretty good answer for your case (if you're still interested). But discussing it on this thread would be slow, if you're interested in getting to the bottom of this, Then we talk on the IRC at whatever time you feel works for you (I'll be checking my pm's or this thread one every other hour).

 

Link to IRC: http://widget00.mibbit.com/?server=irc.rizon.net&channel=%23tulpa_ot,%23tulpa.info

pix: Link

Diary: http://ponystasha.tumblr.com

Koomer.

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Guest Anonymous

There's alot of discussion going on this thread, and i haven't really read much of it ( just too much to read ).

 

makogeddon I have a pretty good answer for your case (if you're still interested). But discussing it on this thread would be slow, if you're interested in getting to the bottom of this, Then we talk on the IRC at whatever time you feel works for you (I'll be checking my pm's or this thread one every other hour).

 

Link to IRC: http://widget00.mibbit.com/?server=irc.rizon.net&channel=%23tulpa_ot,%23tulpa.info

 

Mind if I join the discussion, too? I haven't been trying as long as he (5 months) but since I'm being slow too every help would be appreciated.

Could you send me a pm eventually? (or just the log in a pm or email if I can't join ^^)

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NotAnonymous: I still don't know if I've just been misinterpreting linkzelda's advice or what, but if I haven't, then what you're saying pretty much directly contradicts what they were saying and god this is confusing but what you're saying has made a lot more sense to me in terms of both clarity and viability (no offense to them). I never go on the IRC except for occasions such as this, although I'm curious to hear what oguigi has to say before we talk (if we're going to talk, that is).

 

Anyway, this question is directed at all three of you (i don't mind if dreamy joins in if that's ok with oguigi): What channel should I go to, and at what time? Right now I'm usually awake from sometime in the morning to around midnight EST, for reference.

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