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Doesn't feel like she's real


Ledomare

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I've had many struggles recently, and it's been really hard to keep positive when success is all around me, appearing so tantalizingly close but never being attainable.

 

One of them that I keep coming back to is the fact that I can't convince myself that I can do this- that I really will never be able to talk with her or have a relationship outside of mutual longing, even though I know she's already there. It's debilitating, obviously, because it puts a damper on my mood and surely makes her feel like crap or that she's not putting enough effort in, or something.

 

So far, most of my experiences talking to her have felt like talking to what can be best described as a cardboard cutout of her- vaguely representing her, and the idea of her, but not feeling alive. So I don't really expect a response at all, even though I wish there were, and when I get a response it seems like parroting for the purpose of keeping the conversation going.

 

Meanwhile, I know even if she isn't the cardboard cutout itself, I know she's aware of what I'm saying. Like looking over my shoulder as I dictate to said cutout, and every now and then whispering something in my ear, which is surprising but I don't know where it came from and I'm left lost when I try and figure out where. And when I ask her a question via possession it doesn't really feel like I'm talking to her, per se, it feels like talking to my hand expecting a reply, even though in this case she does reply back.

 

I may be getting very metaphorical with this but it's the best way I know of explaining this. I need to convince myself I can do this, because if I can't believe in myself to be able to, I can't make any progress.

 

Thanks for your time and help.

Tulpa Stats:

Name: Lyra (Ly for short)

Form: Originally Lyra Heartstrings, wants to try some new ones.

Status: Definitely sentient, working on possession. Vocality limited.

Hours: What, you think I still count those?

 

Titty Sprinkles.

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You need to focus on the good things rather than the bad things. The more you worry, the wise it will get (although I don't see any issues so far other than doubt). When forcing Lyra, you need to abandon your physical worries and limits, because let's face it, the only limits you have with her, are the one you give yourself. The best thing to do is try to make the most fun out of your time with her. With my tulpa, Cynthia, I didn't know how sentience was supposed to com about, but one day it just did. Of course no had doubts, but I knew that clinging onto them would only inhibit my progress. We went skydiving and all kinds of fun stuff. That connection we built doing those things is what made her. So you need to spend quality time with her doing things that you enjoy, even if you don't think she does, she will learn to love it and love you through those activities.

 

Also, to address the parroting issue, do not worry too much and always assume the answer you receive is your tulpa, otherwise, when you really do get a response and you doubt it, she is not going to be too happy.

 

Overall, try your best to believe in your own ability and the ability of Lyra and you two will be just fine. I hope this helped!

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You could think of your 'parroted' responses as real. When you get a response twice quickly or know what the response is just before receiving it... you could think of this as her thoughts 'leaking out', or what has been said before about tulpas; is they can take your thoughts and mould them into their response.Just keep at it and leave doubt at the door. The first responses you get should be quiet, sound similar to you, be difficult to understand, and/or be easy to confuse with parroting.

 

The more time you but into something (or someone in this case)the more you get out of it. Just don't give up!

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Here’s how I’m looking at the situation:

 

  • You’re using a metaphor (e.g. cardboard cut-out) to describe what it feels like when talking to her

 

  • You’re using another metaphor for times where she knows what you’re saying, as if she’s looking over your shoulder (e.g. spectator)

 

The dilemma isn’t her struggling to feel real, it’s your disposition on thinking she’s like that. Imagine for a moment on how your two thoughts are inconsistent with each other, so it’s no surprise that you’re thinking she feels fake, or not real or lively enough.

 

I want you to look closely at the second bullet-point I mentioned, where you had the assurance that she knows what you’re saying. It seems you’re so focused on the “cut-out” metaphor that you’re forgetting to realize, she’s already there with you (because of your second metaphor where she seems to be a spectator).

 

You’re trying to compromise between two symbolic forms that you use for communication, and the solution is, go with the one that feels practical for you and her. Logic follows that the second bullet point I mentioned is the way to go.

 

If you’re trying to have two symbolic references make sense to you that obviously would contradict each other, it’s an issue of cognitive dissonance. An easy example for this is when a host knows they can’t compare themselves to others completely, and yet they still practice trying to gain insight from others to try and know that they’re not “fooling” or “faking” it all.

 

You can only gain experiential learning from this when you learn how to take what affects you negatively out of your awareness, and replace it to something that can be consistent to your current beliefs, which are (based on what you stated):

 

  • You know she’s there
  • You know you can only do this if you believe in yourself

 

And what’s blocking and distracting you from having that consistency in assurance and being able to do better are:

 

  • Your metaphor of her being a cut-out, which ends up with you making a dispositional statement of her, and not her feeling that way.

 

  • The same metaphor you’re using on the cut-out (even though you know the spectator metaphor is more pragmatic) is what makes you think you’re parroting all the time. Because you keep thinking she's a cut-out, attaching yourself to that metaphor will obviously affect your mindset, not hers.

 

TL;DR:

You’re only wanting to feel that she’s the one that thinks she isn’t real, even though she (based on your anecdote) seems to be content with her origins. It’s actually your disposition towards the cut-out metaphor that can be self-damaging on your self-esteem when you attach yourself to those thoughts for too long.

 

Pick the metaphor/analogy/simile that’s more practical for you, and just keep forcing. Intent is king, but persevering with the difficulties through trial and error along with practice is what really matters. Stop thinking that if you have a certain negative disposition on her, that it would destroy any progress you’ve made.

 

Focus more on what you can do now instead of allowing reoccurring and contradicting logic get to you.

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I was feeling iffy for a bit too but read more on the forums and asked around and it seems that most people just kept working on their tulpa with sentience in mind and it eventually started happening on its own for them too. Just keep working at him/herand dont give up your goal/

My lip hurts.

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So you need to spend quality time with her doing things that you enjoy, even if you don't think she does, she will learn to love it and love you through those activities.

 

Also, to address the parroting issue, do not worry too much and always assume the answer you receive is your tulpa, otherwise, when you really do get a response and you doubt it, she is not going to be too happy.

 

Overall, try your best to believe in your own ability and the ability of Lyra and you two will be just fine. I hope this helped!

 

This actually sounds pretty good, the idea of just doing stuff with her. When I started forcing back up again a few months ago, I tried reading to her, that seemed to help.

But, sadly, it hasn't been easy to stop worrying. Even when I assume it's her there's still the subconscious notion of "I'm only humoring myself to feel better." But I do and will try.

 

You could think of your 'parroted' responses as real... The first responses you get should be quiet, sound similar to you, be difficult to understand, and/or be easy to confuse with parroting.

 

The more time you but into something (or someone in this case)the more you get out of it. Just don't give up!

 

Yeah, I've gotten that before, just believing everything. Though for whatever reason assuming all parroted responses are her feels near-like roleplaying to me, due to seeming like just taking an easy way out and doing it for her. The whole "formed from my own thoughts" thing also occurred to me, though I sometimes get much, much clearer responses that I know aren't me, which is why the ones that feel on the same level of clarity as my own mindvoice seem to be parroting. And of course I'll keep trying, thankfully, I'm not stopping now after all this time!

 

Here’s how I’m looking at the situation:

 

  • You’re using a metaphor (e.g. cardboard cut-out) to describe what it feels like when talking to her

  • You’re using another metaphor for times where she knows what you’re saying, as if she’s looking over your shoulder (e.g. spectator)

 

The dilemma isn’t her struggling to feel real, it’s your disposition on thinking she’s like that. Imagine for a moment on how your two thoughts are inconsistent with each other, so it’s no surprise that you’re thinking she feels fake, or not real or lively enough.

 

If you’re trying to have two symbolic references make sense to you that obviously would contradict each other, it’s an issue of cognitive dissonance. An easy example for this is when a host knows they can’t compare themselves to others completely, and yet they still practice trying to gain insight from others to try and know that they’re not “fooling” or “faking” it all.

 

Pick the metaphor/analogy/simile that’s more practical for you, and just keep forcing. Intent is king, but persevering with the difficulties through trial and error along with practice is what really matters. Stop thinking that if you have a certain negative disposition on her, that it would destroy any progress you’ve made.

Focus more on what you can do now instead of allowing reoccurring and contradicting logic get to you.

 

To be honest, I didn't expect such a comprehensive reply at this hour, thank you.

 

So, to clarify, however- there really only is one metaphor, and it has nothing to do with HER feeling like she's real, it's me. What I'm saying is that there's a cutout- everything I started with, everything I feel confident in knowing is genuinely her, basically her base model. But I know she's no longer quite that. Nevertheless, not being able to fully trust any indications of her changing, I talk to the cutout in hopes that'll lead me to the right way, knowing or at least assuming the cutout isn't really her, even if it may be. In the meantime, as I talk to it, I also know that the real Lyra, the one she is right now, is standing behind me watching the whole thing, listening to my dialogue with the cutout, saddened by the fact that she can't grab my attention away. I can't see her, I can't hear her (except a few times), but I could if I knew she were right behind me. But (and this is where the analogy begins to fall apart) I can't turn around and see her.

 

But either way, it is still cognitive dissonance, as you pointed out; I know she's real, and I know she can hear me, but I at the same time don't believe it myself. I have had a day or two when I felt, truly felt like she was there with me the whole day, and those were wonderful, but my optimism in all this wavers fairly regularly. When I hear her, as I once did, tell me that she loves me even more than I could imagine, I became so happy- for a few days, while no progress was made and I slowly lapsed into sadness and doubt again. Leading me, again, into the mindset that I'm simply not open-minded enough to be able to set aside my doubts for a tulpa.

 

The point being, I've dug myself into several of the dreaded vicious cycles 'mancers get into. And, what's more, owing to wanting her to take the reins on her own personality and form and such from now on, I'm afraid of overriding what she's got with anything I force on her. So I don't know what to do after the initial first ten minutes of forcing where I recite the base traits to her.

 

I was feeling iffy for a bit too but read more on the forums and asked around and it seems that most people just kept working on their tulpa with sentience in mind and it eventually started happening on its own for them too. Just keep working at him/herand dont give up your goal/

 

Hah, and yeah. If it were to happen on its own (vocality, I mean) I would be a very happy man. Thanks, and I certainly won't give up.

 

Once again, thank you all for your patience in this. I really do appreciate it.

Tulpa Stats:

Name: Lyra (Ly for short)

Form: Originally Lyra Heartstrings, wants to try some new ones.

Status: Definitely sentient, working on possession. Vocality limited.

Hours: What, you think I still count those?

 

Titty Sprinkles.

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Bud felt like a giant doll for a while, or maybe some kind of NPC that would just mindlessly follow me around when I paid attention to him. I kept talking to him, not even conversation, but just one sided narration.

 

It simply takes time along with the constant work and effort. You mentioned how she sometimes "whispers" things and it's a surprise to you, that's a good thing. It supposed to feel alien and like you didn't think it yourself, because you didn't. She did.

 

I also suggest following what Linkzelda said and try to stick to one symbolic thought to focus on her with so you aren't contradicting yourself.

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Thanks for clarifying things for me, here’s how I’m seeing it now:

 

  • You acknowledge you have the problem of cognitive dissonance with the cut-out metaphor. That’s good, we’re on the right track, you don’t know how many tulpamancers want to deny they actually have a problem.

 

  • You have issues with finding absolute indicators of her changing, even though her own existence and her brief moments of declarations to you is more than enough “indicator.”

 

  • You’re using the cut-out in hopes that it will lead you in the right way, but you’re in a deadlock with knowing it’s probably not her, but allowing the probability of it being her.

 

  • You know the real Lyra is the one behind you watching, but you’re still not wanting to admit this is a symbolic means of reference (that can actually help you). You have a two-way logic that causes the cognitive dissonance: The cut-out is like your mental rehearsal, a means for finding a modicum of hope that things will be better for you and Lyra. But because she has a higher presence, you’re only trapping yourself.

 

  • You create a disposition that Lyra is saddened by the fact that she can’t grab your attention away. Pro-tip: If a tulpa starts expressing themselves like that, it’s a sign that you abandon the cut-out completely. Or you can just do mental visualization of her as a supplement. More forcing will eventually lead to the mind imagining her form instantly.

 

  • She already admits to loving you more than you could imagine, but you’re still afraid your disposition and thoughts will override her sense of being, or her overall existence

 

Look Ledomare, you’ll have to be honest with yourself, when you have a tulpa that will still love and appreciate you either way, you have to realize it’s likely she’ll know how to keep her self-identity reigned in without being affected by your “overriding” forcing on her.

 

And no one is expecting you to get rid of this cognitive dissonance and two-way logic towards self-degeneration quickly.

 

You’re going to have to stop expecting that you’ll visually see her whenever you turn your back to listen to her. Right now, be resourceful with what you can do, which is attempting to listen to her voice (e.g. mind-voice). The visual imposition or mental imagery can come in time, there’s no rush, and it won’t affect your progress if you don’t do it immediately.

 

You need to realize you’re the one that’s going to have to make the change, you’re the one that has to get rid of the disposition that your “forcing” of her will override her self-identity, or better yet, her self-schema. Know that when you recite the basic traits to her, it’s just a start-up for you, you'll just have to keep going and find something to talk about with her (e.g narrating to her).

 

This is why you shouldn’t let indicators, modes of reference, and such get the better of you. They’re just tools for you to understand the bigger picture, and thus, understand Lyra better.

 

 

TL;DR: Dude, you're aware of your problem, your tulpa is aware of your problem, the only thing you can do right now is this: Getting out of that cognitive dissonance will take time, but it can be done. Whatever you do to imagine her or acknowledge her existence, it's not going to "override" her self-schema, she'll be perfectly fine no matter what you use to communicate with her.

 

Your sensory modalities (e.g. spectator analogy) to acknowledge her are merely tools, not indicators that traps her from expressing herself. They're indicators that can be used for better progress, not creating detriments. Please don't take for granted of her declarations that may seem like fleeting moments to you, they can transcend into something greater, you just have to get those idiosyncrasies out of your head.

 

Trust me, when you start taking care of the twisted logic that occurs, things will get better.

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I know these kinds of ruts can be horrible to try and break out of, and sadly I don't have a good answer for you, but there's one bit of advice I'd like to give.

 

 

Whenever an artist feels that they aren't making progress and they're worried they'll never succeed, the only thing anyone will tell them is to shut up and work on more drawings. That's the only thing anyone CAN tell them.

 

Maybe you should try shutting up and working on your tulpa more.

 

Will your problem go away in time if you ignore it? I don't know. But if every time you were worried about your tulpa's authenticity you used that fear as motivation to sit down and force for half an hour, I know both you and your tulpa will grow more. All Bacn wants is for you two to become stronger.

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  • 4 weeks later...

So, figured I'd come back and update a bit.

 

First of all, I've been attempting to convince myself that I believe in her and that she's able to talk to me and such. Sadly, my laziness in forcing, my inability to focus, my mood constantly swinging to the negative, and the fact that I can't grasp what I'm supposed to be doing for forcing in any regard have been holding that back very much, sadly.

 

However, exempt from the previous statement was one particular instance. Normally, I find that quite a lot of things (such as a friend talking about how happy he is to have a tulpa) tend to get me down because of the thought train they start. About a week ago, for a day or two, I somehow didn't feel like that. It was a drastic change of mind that I somewhat attribute to Lyra, because I can't imagine why else it would. The following evening, I tried talking with her, directing the thoughts inwards (the method that usually makes me feel I'm parroting) and not caring if it was her or not, and we talked for a good long while. The majority of that next day I spent with her in mind, but soon after that effect faded and I found myself not believing she's around to talk to anymore.

 

So, I return here to reply to some of the old replies and seek further help.

 

Will your problem go away in time if you ignore it? I don't know. But if every time you were worried about your tulpa's authenticity you used that fear as motivation to sit down and force for half an hour, I know both you and your tulpa will grow more. All Bacn wants is for you two to become stronger.

 

I agree. Interestingly (and somewhat sadly) I can't motivate myself by fear manually and I am also very lazy when it comes to getting myself to do such things even when I know it is extremely pertinent to solving my issues. Though doing more forcing (once I figure out what to do) should definitely be on my list of things to make priorities.

 

You’re going to have to stop expecting that you’ll visually see her whenever you turn your back to listen to her. Right now, be resourceful with what you can do, which is attempting to listen to her voice (e.g. mind-voice). The visual imposition or mental imagery can come in time, there’s no rush, and it won’t affect your progress if you don’t do it immediately.

 

You need to realize you’re the one that’s going to have to make the change, you’re the one that has to get rid of the disposition that your “forcing” of her will override her self-identity, or better yet, her self-schema. Know that when you recite the basic traits to her, it’s just a start-up for you, you'll just have to keep going and find something to talk about with her (e.g narrating to her).

 

TL;DR: Dude, you're aware of your problem, your tulpa is aware of your problem, the only thing you can do right now is this: Getting out of that cognitive dissonance will take time, but it can be done. Your sensory modalities (e.g. spectator analogy) to acknowledge her are merely tools, not indicators that traps her from expressing herself. They're indicators that can be used for better progress, not creating detriments. Please don't take for granted of her declarations that may seem like fleeting moments to you, they can transcend into something greater, you just have to get those idiosyncrasies out of your head.

 

Trust me, when you start taking care of the twisted logic that occurs, things will get better.

 

Ah. Actually, to clarify, I used the "she's right behind me watching" thing to indicate that I understand she is able to hear my dialogue and see me, but I cannot 'see' her, or know where her mental location is. Frankly, I feel even less confident in my visualization than I do in vocality. I didn't mean at all I expect to see her if I turn around, the "turning" metaphor was for if I were able to realize where she is to be able to better direct my thoughts.

 

Coincidentally, though, when I imagine her physical presence it is almost always behind me. For some reason behind me I can always sense her, while in front of me I can't.

 

But yes, I do understand now that I can't override anything for her. Which is good, because from all the indication I'm getting I may have to fundamentally restart the process of building her ability of vocality so that I can get a handle on things.

 

I anticipate the day that I'm able to understand why I think the things I do about forcing, considering how completely and utterly convoluted my mind has been in believing in her. The only issue is when and how, because while someday I may have an epiphany, I can't sit down and wait for that to happen. I've gotta be doing something in the meantime at least to make an attempt.

 

Right now, though, my biggest concern (as I've mentioned above) is what to do. Even the most basic concepts elude me, and if I'm to, for instance, teach her to translate her thoughts to mindvoice without using my own natural habit to do so- I don't know how to teach her to do that. Symbolism doesn't work with me, and I don't feel saying "try saying it yourself" cuts it. One of my concerns is the reason why it feels like parroting is because I subconsciously fear if I don't determine what she's going to say and fill it in for her that what she's saying will be lost to the flotsam and jetsam of my thoughts.

 

Anyway, I'm rambling again. Once again, as always, thank you for your time, patience, and help.

Tulpa Stats:

Name: Lyra (Ly for short)

Form: Originally Lyra Heartstrings, wants to try some new ones.

Status: Definitely sentient, working on possession. Vocality limited.

Hours: What, you think I still count those?

 

Titty Sprinkles.

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