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A pledge


HorizonRunner

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This applies once you assume sentience. Given that the "sentience from the start" thing is still being talked about, I thought I didn't need to mention it, but it was my intent. If you screw up and end up with a servitor, or are just, JUST starting out, this doesn't apply so much

I see "once they are sentient" in that statement now. If it was there originally then I'm sorry, I missed that.

 

But I guess that boundary is hard to call, although if you do assume 'sentience from the start' - which I think is more practical than credible - then it's obvious.

 

 

 

Not what I meant at all. There are basic things that children need to be taught, many of which they will learn on their own, after a fashion: language, social mores, etc. These are simply a requirement of most cultures. Children are also taught basic skills, especially later on: Mathematics, language arts, etc. What I don't condone is forcing children to subscribe to a particular all-inclusive worldview or philosophy before they have the faculties and experience to understand it. I don't want to go into this topic, particularly, but I will if pressed.

 

Tulpas are not children. They come into being with a predispositions based on what the host expects, and what's left unmentioned is usually granted to them by way of "common sense." Tulpas typically don't need explanations as to why people wear clothes or eat food. They understand because the host does. If the host expects the tulpa to need to be taught these things then sure, they won't necessarily know, but unless it's common practice to assume your tulpa won't know what pants are, I don't see that as an issue.

You raise a good point. In fact, parenting probably isn't the best metaphor.

 

The reasoning behind the parent forcing the child to dress a certain way doesn't matter. For this comparison it may as well be arbitrary. Nevertheless they are dressed against their will where it is not necessarily for their own benefit, which fits the tulpa/host scenario here more closely.

 

Perhaps my point modified slightly would be that form is actually fairly trivial, at least temporarily. In any case, I suppose there are bound to be things that I too would not like a host forcing a tulpa to do, so the main thrust that this was far from universal is already done. In any case we do broadly agree. I just think that your statement there was too general.

 

 

 

I meant originally that if a tulpa wanted to, say, paint or write, the host should allow them the time to do so, if possible. I would also say that if the tulpa has a view they want to express, the host should be open to letting them do so.

I'm not sure how that changes my point. It could be "My hand, my choice", the idea is the same.

 

 

 

I'll reword that. "Entire life" isn't quite what I meant. I just wanted to reinforce the closeness aspect.

It's not the "Entire life" part that says "equality" to me - you could have a lifelong pet, for instance. It's the "friend" part.

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I see "once they are sentient" in that statement now. If it was there originally then I'm sorry, I missed that.

 

But I guess that boundary is hard to call, although if you do assume 'sentience from the start' - which I think is more practical than credible - then it's obvious.

That line is new. I added it based on your criticism.

 

It is very hard to call this, and in the end it's down to the host's beliefs and judgement. I'd say to be on the safe side, but I can't control people. I know that there was a time while Horizon was forcing that I was not sentient, though I can't exactly tell how long it lasted or what I was like.

 

You raise a good point. In fact, parenting probably isn't the best metaphor.

 

The reasoning behind the parent forcing the child to dress a certain way doesn't matter. For this comparison it may as well be arbitrary. Nevertheless they are dressed against their will where it is not necessarily for their own benefit, which fits the tulpa/host scenario here more closely.

 

Perhaps my point modified slightly would be that form is actually fairly trivial, at least temporarily. In any case, I suppose there are bound to be things that I too would not like a host forcing a tulpa to do, so the main thrust that this was far from universal is already done. In any case we do broadly agree. I just think that your statement there was too general.

 

I agree that we broadly agree, but to be honest I can't picture many, if any, scenarios where a host forcing something on a tulpa would be beneficial. I'm sure they exist, but at the same time there are things people would do "for your own good" that you wouldn't necessarily want done to you. It's a fine line.

 

I'm not sure how that changes my point. It could be "My hand, my choice", the idea is the same.

I don't see why it should be. If your tulpa wanted to take twenty minutes every day to sketch, would you begrudge them that if it made them happy? Sure, they could do it in the wonderland, but there's a distinct pleasure to be had in the permanence of things in the physical world.

 

It's not the "Entire life" part that says "equality" to me - you could have a lifelong pet, for instance. It's the "friend" part.

 

Ah yes... I understand what you mean now. This one is a problem; there isn't really a word that sums up the relationship between tulpa and host. Not master and apprentice, nor parent and child, not quite. Older and younger siblings is almost closer, but has connotations that break the comparison. I don't really know how to re-word it.

]

[align=center]We've hit the edge of understanding, and we're stepping off with nothing but a pen and paper.

 

[i'm Comet. Somehow I've turned out to be the more talkative one, though I promise to make just as little sense as he does.][/align]

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I really like this. It's reasonable and thorough. I'm tempted to see if I could get this stickied, though I'd like to hear what others have to say first.

My critique is below.

 

If my tulpa expresses a desire to be humiliated or otherwise treated in some way that goes against this tenet (i.e. BDSM) then I may do so, but only if I am certain is is their desire, and not my own leaking over. In such cases, we should use a safe word, or equivalent.

 

This is far, far too specific in several ways. I suggest changing it to something similar to the following to cover most sensual acts.

 

If my tulpa wishes to for me to perform explicit acts then I may do so, but only if I am certain it is their desire, and not my own leaking over. In such cases, we should use a safe word, or equivalent.

The same stipulations about explicit conduct as outlined in the host's pledge apply.

 

(And if you do this, I will hunt you down personally. It's not okay, okay?)

 

This is unnecessary.

 

I also suggest respacing the tulpa section so the subpoints don't flow into the topics.

 

A "I will not use my tulpa as an excuse" tenet might be worth adding. Having a tulpa is not a reason to suddenly flunk classes to go force, justify antisocial behavior, be exempt from social norms, excessive escapism, etc. You have to find a healthy medium.

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I really like this. It's reasonable and thorough. I'm tempted to see if I could get this stickied, though I'd like to hear what others have to say first.

My critique is below.

 

I don't think it's worth all that, especially not without some edits. Thankfully, it seems it's getting the critique it needs.

This is far, far too specific in several ways. I suggest changing it to something similar to the following to cover most sensual acts.

In hindsight, I agree. I'll rewrite that section.

 

This is unnecessary.

It was a half-joke that I tossed in for Horizon's benefit. Lets just say it's a trigger we share, and leave it at that. I'll take it out.

 

I also suggest respacing the tulpa section so the subpoints don't flow into the topics.

 

Will do. I was going to, but the way the person who formatted this did it confused me at first, and I never got around to it.

 

A "I will not use my tulpa as an excuse" tenet might be worth adding. Having a tulpa is not a reason to suddenly flunk classes to go force, justify antisocial behavior, be exempt from social norms, excessive escapism, etc. You have to find a healthy medium.

 

That is a brilliant idea, thank you.

]

[align=center]We've hit the edge of understanding, and we're stepping off with nothing but a pen and paper.

 

[i'm Comet. Somehow I've turned out to be the more talkative one, though I promise to make just as little sense as he does.][/align]

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Personally, I think #5 should be written as:

 

"I must assume that a lack of progress in any field is my fault unless my tulpa expresses otherwise."

 

To match, the Tulpa's Pledge should be written as:

 

"If I feel I am responsible for a lack of progress in any field, I must notify my host."

"Don't listen to friends when the friend inside you says 'Do this.'" -Gandhi

 

Tulpa Name: Ellie

Created: 11/13/13

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Personally, I think #5 should be written as:

 

"I must assume that a lack of progress in any field is my fault unless my tulpa expresses otherwise."

 

To match, the Tulpa's Pledge should be written as:

 

"If I feel I am responsible for a lack of progress in any field, I must notify my host."

 

[Excellent idea.]

[align=center]We've hit the edge of understanding, and we're stepping off with nothing but a pen and paper.

 

[i'm Comet. Somehow I've turned out to be the more talkative one, though I promise to make just as little sense as he does.][/align]

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[...that's a six page document. I... I'm sorry; I can't read through that right now. We need sleep.

 

Jesus... this was just a spur of the moment thing, and now it's blown up into something that warranted a six page critique.

 

I'll be back in the morning. Jesus.]

[align=center]We've hit the edge of understanding, and we're stepping off with nothing but a pen and paper.

 

[i'm Comet. Somehow I've turned out to be the more talkative one, though I promise to make just as little sense as he does.][/align]

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Man I can hardly follow Linkzelda but here's one more reply.

 

It is very hard to call this, and in the end it's down to the host's beliefs and judgement. I'd say to be on the safe side, but I can't control people. I know that there was a time while Horizon was forcing that I was not sentient, though I can't exactly tell how long it lasted or what I was like.

I definitely agree. I don't think there is a universal line and the host's judgement is essentially the only way of telling beyond 'playing it safe' as you said.

 

 

 

I agree that we broadly agree, but to be honest I can't picture many, if any, scenarios where a host forcing something on a tulpa would be beneficial. I'm sure they exist, but at the same time there are things people would do "for your own good" that you wouldn't necessarily want done to you. It's a fine line.

I agree that you agree that we broadly agree too, thanks. But the point is less about the host forcing things on a tulpa for the greater good, and more about them doing so for self-serving or no reasons. What I'm saying is that since there are many situations in which this might be the case but such an act would nevertheless be inconsequential. In that case, perhaps a supposedly binding moral principle is too strong.

 

 

I don't see why it should be. If your tulpa wanted to take twenty minutes every day to sketch, would you begrudge them that if it made them happy? Sure, they could do it in the wonderland, but there's a distinct pleasure to be had in the permanence of things in the physical world.

Of course it would be unreasonable to, in general, but it's more a question of whether a tulpa has a right to it, which your pledge seems to imply for me.

 

 

As a point on those last two, I suppose what I'm basing them on is that your pledge functionally lays down firm moral/ethical principles - at least, if you didn't intend to impose them on others then it reflects your own. Taken optionally I suppose it's just a declaration of good will, but stickying this would be a statement of moral law on behalf of the staff for sure.

 

 

 

Ah yes... I understand what you mean now. This one is a problem; there isn't really a word that sums up the relationship between tulpa and host. Not master and apprentice, nor parent and child, not quite. Older and younger siblings is almost closer, but has connotations that break the comparison. I don't really know how to re-word it.

If there is no apt comparison then don't make one. I think you'd be fine without it.

 

 

 

And Derp, I already said something strong about stickying but I'd add that it's kind of odd to go around stickying everything you find reasonable. There's a section on the forum for reasonable advice, and another one for sensible ideas. I don't see why you should elevate it above other things that would probably be more beneficial like a full-screen pop-up with flashing rainbow text that says "Do some fucking research before you post", for example. I mean, if anyone has got this far and still hasn't figured out that "guys you're supposed to treat yer tulpa like another person" then I don't think yet another sticky is going to help them. But if you are giving away free stickies then do consider my proposal as well (sorry to advertise in your thread, HorizonRunner).

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I agree that you agree that we broadly agree too, thanks. But the point is less about the host forcing things on a tulpa for the greater good, and more about them doing so for self-serving or no reasons. What I'm saying is that since there are many situations in which this might be the case but such an act would nevertheless be inconsequential. In that case, perhaps a supposedly binding moral principle is too strong.

I guess I see your point. I'll see about rewording that section.

 

Of course it would be unreasonable to, in general, but it's more a question of whether a tulpa has a right to it, which your pledge seems to imply for me.

Again, point seen. This is probably the trickiest question here, at least for me. Personally, I hold the right to free expression as just about the most important thing short of "thou shalt not kill", "thou shalt not without consent" and "thou shalt not be a douche", but I recognize that my viewpoint isn't universal. I'll see if I can tweak it.

 

As a point on those last two, I suppose what I'm basing them on is that your pledge functionally lays down firm moral/ethical principles - at least, if you didn't intend to impose them on others then it reflects your own. Taken optionally I suppose it's just a declaration of good will, but stickying this would be a statement of moral law on behalf of the staff for sure.

Oh dear god. In light of what he just said, please, PLEASE don't sticky this. The last thing we need is to give random people on the internet the power to impose their own brand of morality on an entire community (even if that person is me). It sets bad precedents, no matter how many people agree with it.

 

If there is no apt comparison then don't make one. I think you'd be fine without it.

I'll see what I can do. I'm awake and alert this time around.

 

 

And Derp, I already said something strong about stickying but I'd add that it's kind of odd to go around stickying everything you find reasonable. There's a section on the forum for reasonable advice, and another one for sensible ideas. I don't see why you should elevate it above other things that would probably be more beneficial like a full-screen pop-up with flashing rainbow text that says "Do some fucking research before you post", for example. I mean, if anyone has got this far and still hasn't figured out that "guys you're supposed to treat yer tulpa like another person" then I don't think yet another sticky is going to help them. But if you are giving away free stickies then do consider my proposal as well (sorry to advertise in your thread, HorizonRunner).

 

I like that pop-up idea.

[align=center]We've hit the edge of understanding, and we're stepping off with nothing but a pen and paper.

 

[i'm Comet. Somehow I've turned out to be the more talkative one, though I promise to make just as little sense as he does.][/align]

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