Ayre

On Tulpa and Schizophrenia

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I think this kind of stuff should go in general discussion, honestly. It's an article and while we do have an article section, it's not on the forums. But I think if you do post an article that might later be put somewhere else, the thread should go to General Discussion so people can talk about it. I don't think theories are what we should be rating.


The THE SUBCONCIOUS ochinchin occultists frt.sys (except Roswell because he doesn't want to be a part of it)

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It would seem have some editing to do. My main point was supposed to be that schizophrenia itself is not anything like having a tulpa, besides the "hearing voices" part, and further strengthened by the fact it's only really known to be caused by non-mental factors. The latter could be reworded, and I see what you are saying Waffles. Going by the strict psychiatric definition would help to prove my point, not sure why I didn't think of that. Although, I did quote a psychologist in his definitions of such disorders. I should have probably highlighted what a tulpa is verses what schizophrenia is.

 

waffles: that is a big IF. The fact is if tulpa were a form of schizophrenia then the understanding of the entire mental disorder would have to be changed. There is no such criteria for "alters," any disassociate elements, and no control over any hallucinations (When they appear/disappear). Furthermore, my point was that the brain of a "normal/healthy" individual is actually different than someone with one of the schizophrenic disorders. To my knowledge one can not change their brain chemistry to create such changes, but I could be wrong. So in short I don't believe I have done this wrong per-say, but I need to expand my reasoning further and do more research.

 

Linkzelda, I can see where you are coming from as well; nothing is 100%. I could probably add a qualifier to my answer, and make at a strong theoretical no. Again, my basis for the absolution was that these disorders are not linked to tulpa enough to actually give someone this mostly unrelated disorder. I should go back and strengthen this point. I will also do more research on this statement: “Scientists think that an imbalance in the complex, interrelated chemical reactions of the brain involving the neurotransmitters dopamine and glutamate, and possibly others, plays a role in schizophrenia.” I can see how the addition of the words "think" and "possibly" would invoke your request for further proof. If none is found it will be removed.

 

Perhaps I should elaborate more in both the paragraphs and the conclusion. I made this rather quickly then posted, essentially, my rough draft. In hindsight this may not have been the best approach. I will say, I believe I misinterpreted the "Resources" section and this my be better suited for General Discussion. Thank you guys for your feedback and constructive criticisms, it is appreciated.


Host: Ayre

Tulpas: Coda and Segno

 

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Oh no, I'm not demanding proof, I was agreeing with your line of reasoning from the start. It's just that I felt that even if an individual gave a stronger reasoning, it obviously wouldn't be more valid until any experimentation or study has been been done, but this information is still useful nonetheless. I apologize if there was an overtone of demanding evidence from you, I wouldn't do something so bold.

 

I wish you the best in your future drafts, looking forward to seeing them, because maybe it can alleviate some doubts newcomers may have when they may attribute mental illnesses in relation to tulpas.

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I could approve this for Resources (count it as a vote for that), but as others have mentioned, it may make more sense to have this as an article, or something to be discussed upon with others (such as in General Discussion).

 

As for the actual contents of this article:

 

I would say that few people are under the impression that tulpas are anything like schizophrenia, even if newcomers and a few trolls tend to use that one *chan meme of tulpas being "self-induced schizophrenia".

 

Does that meme have any merits?

 

If tulpas were to be a psychological disorder, they'd be closest to dissociative disorders (leaving aside the part that tulpas don't really cause distress or impaired functioning for most people).

 

Do those disorders have any similarities to schizophrenia or psychosis? Some would say so - there are documented cases of DID and other dissociative disorders being misdiagnosed as psychotic disorders, see the "Differential diagnostic considerations between DDs and Psychotic Disorders" section in this paper: http://www.grumblesandrumbles.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Spiegel-et-al_Dissociative-Disorders.pdf

 

Not only that, there are some symptoms that can be shared between (healthy or otherwise) multiplicity (which I'm considering tulpas to be part of, as long as sufficiently developed) and psychosis, as that paper illustrates, such as First Rank Symptoms.

 

That paper also shows that on a neurological level (later pages), other cognitive disorders function differently from DD, for example, hypnosis and suggestion can be used to influence someone with a DD (or someone with a tulpa), but wouldn't work on someone with a cognitive disorder.

 

Also, obviously, a person taking anti-psychotics wouldn't really end up losing their tulpa - unless they truly believed they would (placebo/nocebo or so called "frontloading" effects). I can think of at least one example of someone in this community that confirmed that taking anti-psychotics didn't affect their tulpa much.

 

 

The closest thing to schizophrenia that the tulpa process could have would be imposition (which is optional). Without going into full detail into it, I hypothesize that there are 2 kinds of imposition, one which is dissociative - where one focuses harder on their imagination to the point of it seeming real and overriding one's senses (partially), and the other which feels indistinguishable from reality for all intents and purposes (you wouldn't know if something was generated internally or not).

 

Basically a pseudo-hallucination vs a hallucination. It's yet unclear if the two types of imposition are truly one and the same (I've had long debates on IRC over this) or if they result in the same thing. However, the way of training them is different, one is excessive daydreaming with the intent of perceiving something as real (and with some help from the tulpa 'imposing' themselves), while the other involves mismatching existing senses into something else we want to perceive.

 

The first, pseudo-hallucinatory method usually results in a sensory-override where one doesn't see behind their imposed tulpa, but one could see behind if they wished or tried.

 

As for the second method, here's an example guide which teaches it:

 

Other methods not centered around vision involve using white noise (sound or visuals) and trying to expect to see something in it until one can control it. Doing that enough can eventually result in one truly hallucinating something to the point of not being able to tell that it's mentally generated (perceived as if it's a physical sense).

 

I'm not even sure if the second method can be unlearned once mastered, although the first does seem like it can - I do know of a case of someone that stopped imposing their tulpas and they had difficulty doing it again after the long break.

 

There are also a few cases of people who upon learning imposition (using something similar to the second method, by trying to "see" things in the dark) ended up having uncontrolled hallucinations and other mismatched senses (there's also one case of someone doing the equivalent of that by trying to "hear" things while listening to white noise which resulted in similar issues).

 

 

While I wouldn't call either of those psychosis or schizophrenia, there's certainly some unusual things going on there, but they do usually lack all the other symptoms required to qualify.

 

Could schizophrenia be self-induced? You seem to be very sure it cannot be, but I'll side with waffles here and say that we don't yet have sufficient evidence to make a claim that it couldn't be induced. HPPD can be "induced" by consuming large quantities of hallucinogens, although not reliably. If I had to make a bet, I would find it surprising if inducing schizophrenia could be done merely by thinking the right things, without involving various other factors (genetics, physical/chemical environmental factors, etc), however I do think it may be possible for someone to learn to hallucinate and have difficulty unlearning that skill (without also getting other symptoms).

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I agree wholeheartedly with this post. I always thought the same, albeit in a severely simplified phrasing; visual or auditory hallucinations do not always directly mean schizophrenia. It seems possible that one could, under the right conditions, mistake a case of paranoid schizophrenia for a tulpa, but creating a tulpa is certainly not just a means of inducing the disorder.

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I agree wholeheartedly with this post. I always thought the same, albeit in a severely simplified phrasing; visual or auditory hallucinations do not always directly mean schizophrenia. It seems possible that one could, under the right conditions, mistake a case of paranoid schizophrenia for a tulpa, but creating a tulpa is certainly not just a means of inducing the disorder.

 

I agree full-heartedly. And there are people with physical brain damage that hallucinate, but do not have any other symptoms of schizophrenia and are not diagnosed as such.

 

To have a person that has a tulpa be diagnosed as schizophrenic would be a rather sad, sorry state of affairs as the diagnosing clinician would need to ignore the fact that the client doesn't meet a whole host of other criteria that is required by the DSM.

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