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Posted (edited)

It's not an appeal to authority, it's an appeal to smart people whose jobs are literally to research and present factual information. As opposed to, you know, the people using a typo because they don't know any better. Didn't I say I wouldn't argue this because it was a stupid point?

 

But on the legitimacy of the typo side, that's fair, including making sure people know that professionals using "extravert" does not mean they oppose the use of "extrovert".

 

They should... but it's probably seen as a lost cause to people with better things to worry about. Unfortunately, this is the hill I'll die on, lol.

Edited by Luminesce

Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.

Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.

My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us stuff.

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17 minutes ago, Luminesce said:

It's not an appeal to authority, it's an appeal to smart people whose jobs are literally to research and present factual information.

do you know what an appeal to authority is? you could argue that it isn't a fallacy in this case, and I would disagree, bit at least it's an argument. that it is an appeal to authority however, is undeniable


I have a tulpa named Miela who I love very much.

 

 
"People put quotes in their signatures, right?"

-Me

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22 hours ago, Luminesce said:

Also this is a non-argument anyways, because it didn't even develop naturally. The original appearance of "extrovert" a hundred years ago was a literal typo - "bad latin". The fact that the word "extravert" even still exists a hundred years later says an awful lot, because any other word/spelling that's been replaced should be more or less gone at that point. Even wikipedia uses "extraversion" over "extroversion", and it's one of the first results on google when searching "extroversion".

 

As far as hills go, I can't think of any other hill I'm more likely to die on than this one. Most things I'm committed to aren't "hills", but this one has somehow managed to become one, it's pretty dumb

Whaaaaaaat??? We’ve never heard of this and it kinda blew our minds xD I might just start spelling it like that out of protest. On the other hand... I get it because English is so insane. ‘Knife’ is a good example of an insanity word. We supposedly just stopped pronouncing the k because it was dumb or whatever reason and it stuck.

..INSANITY WORDS


Tulpa: Sierra

Forcing since July 2012

Couguhl’s Progress Report

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Couguhl said:

..INSANITY WORDS

 

There are lots of words in English with silent letters at the start. Know is actually a more common example than even knife, and no you're not supposed to pronounce the K's lol. You've got H's like "Honest, Hour" and P's like "Psychic, Pterodactyl" (that one's particularly painful lol), and even some sneaky ones a native would never notice like Wh, "Who, whole". English is a language full of weird rules and exceptions.

 

Know what's not an exception? The spelling of extravert/extraversion, made from the latin "extra" and "vert". Extrovert is just a typo that stuck because people are so used to hearing "introvert" that when they go to use the opposite, they throw an O in there, spurred on by said ancient typo 100 years ago.

 

It could become an exception, though. Given enough time - if it goes how Bre says it should - extravert will become an incorrect (or actually an "archaic") spelling of "extrovert". Or people like me can keep making a fuss for as long as we live so that that never happens.

 

 

ugh, can't use the at symbol on this forum without pinging someone - at Bre, I refuse to argue anything outside the argument itself. Appealing to intellectual authority being a bad thing is ridiculous. You should stop appealing to whatever authority created the list of logical fallacies, they don't deserve any more say than I do, apparently. The specific scientists I was referring to weren't chemists and physicists, I was talking about the people whose careers it is to study and discuss the very concepts of things like intro- and extraversion. And Wikipedia editors, whose ~job it is to research and gather knowledge in one place, with sources of course. Calling relying on their information an appeal to authority is literally a fallacy fallacy, doesn't add a dang thing to the argument and presents an arbitrary branching argument I'm not willing to take up.

Edited by Luminesce

Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.

Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.

My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us stuff.

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22 hours ago, Luminesce said:

 

There are lots of words in English with silent letters at the start. Know is actually a more common example than even knife, and no you're not supposed to pronounce the K's lol. You've got H's like "Honest, Hour" and P's like "Psychic, Pterodactyl" (that one's particularly painful lol), and even some sneaky ones a native would never notice like Wh, "Who, whole". English is a language full of weird rules and exceptions.

The meme I always remember hearing is that if you take “gh” from “enough,” “o” from “women,” and “ti” from “nation,” you get “ghoti,” which in this case is pronounced “fish.”

So when I started memorizingJapanese characters for example, I could really appreciate the phonetic pronunciation of everything, and that meant I could practically read something correctly even if I didn’t know what it meant. And I think supposedly that English is like the only or one of the only languages that has ‘spelling bees?’ Where you can competitively spell words xD


22 hours ago, Breloomancer said:

what would you be protesting by spelling it differently?

A slightly more accurate etymology! Fighting the continued onslaught of non-derivative arbitrary vocal fluctuation! (Making people more likely to mishear you and think you’re talking about olive oil whilst you mention the subject, so you can get off into a food subject - extraverts will like this - maybe they’ll start talking about a barbecue, at which point, you will have instilled civility amongst the common people and resisted the tyranny of the day, amen. Oh and )


Tulpa: Sierra

Forcing since July 2012

Couguhl’s Progress Report

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26 minutes ago, Couguhl said:

And I think supposedly that English is like the only or one of the only languages that has ‘spelling bees?’ Where you can competitively spell words xD

 

oof


Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.

Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.

My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us stuff.

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22 hours ago, Luminesce said:

Know what's not an exception? The spelling of extravert/extraversion, made from the latin "extra" and "vert". Extrovert is just a typo that stuck because people are so used to hearing "introvert" that when they go to use the opposite, they throw an O in there, spurred on by said ancient typo 100 years ago.

it isn't an exception in that from it's spelling you can derive it's pronunciation (mostly, you still don't know where stress goes, but there isn't really any way to mark stress in standard english orthography, so it still counts as regular), however, from it's pronunciation you cannot derive it's spelling, because, though most of the phonemes in extraovert are regular, the a/o is a schwa, so there are many possible vowel letters that you could use to represent it. by replacing the a with an o, now as long as you know the spelling of either introvert or extrovert, you could spell both of them. sure, if this was latin then this change would make things less regular since extravert is made out of latin roots, but since this is english and not latin, it doesn't really matter and actually makes it easier to spell

 

Quote

It could become an exception, though. Given enough time - if it goes how Bre says it should - extravert will become an incorrect (or actually an "archaic") spelling of "extrovert". Or people like me can keep making a fuss for as long as we live so that that never happens.

woah there, I never said extravert should become incorrect. I have no idea what I could have said that would make you think that. why are you acting like you are fighting for some noble cause? what horrible thing will happen when people stop spelling extraovert with an a?

 

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Appealing to intellectual authority being a bad thing is ridiculous.

it isn't necessarily a bad thing, it is just bad the way that you used it. there are a few different reasons that I could bring up why you used it in a fallacious way, but I have rewritten this a few times and I keep tripping over my own words, so I'll just bring up the first reason, which is that anyone can write for wikipedia, so there is no way to know if they are experts in anything. wikipedia has a no origonal research policy, so you can just cite the source that they cite instead (except for this case where there is no source because they didn't actually have a stance but instead just chose a particular spelling of a word)

 

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You should stop appealing to whatever authority created the list of logical fallacies, they don't deserve any more say than I do, apparently.

I was not using an appeal to authority there, because I wasn't simply saying that something is true because someone said so, but rather brought up that it was a logical fallacy and then proceeded to link a page that said what the fallacy was and why it was a fallacy. I wasn't appealing the the authority of the website, but rather to it's argument

 

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The specific scientists I was referring to weren't chemists and physicists, I was talking about the people whose careers it is to study and discuss the very concepts of things like intro- and extraversion.

and why would experts on introversion and extraoversion be a good source on linguistics? also, you weren't referring to specific scientists, you were referring to wikipedia editors, which are more or less anonymous

Quote

Calling relying on their information an appeal to authority is literally a fallacy fallacy, doesn't add a dang thing to the argument and presents an arbitrary branching argument I'm not willing to take up.

except of course that they didn't have information, they merely chose to spell things a certain way. also, it is not fallacy fallacy because I am not saying that you are wrong because you used a fallacy, I am just saying that that particular argument is not a valid defense of your point


21 hours ago, Couguhl said:

 And I think supposedly that English is like the only or one of the only languages that has ‘spelling bees?’ Where you can competitively spell words xD

I don't know about that, but I do know that historical spelling is a very common thing, and english is not nearly the worst offender. if you don't like english spelling, then make sure to never try to learn a tibetec language


I have a tulpa named Miela who I love very much.

 

 
"People put quotes in their signatures, right?"

-Me

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Breloomancer said:

however, from it's pronunciation you cannot derive it's spelling, because, though most of the phonemes in extraovert are regular, the a/o is a schwa

 

You use those IPA pronunciations I still don't know if I like, but I speak English, and I know that "extrivert", "extrovert", "extruvert", "extrevert", and "extravert" are all pronounced differently. Ex-truh-vert couldn't reasonably be spelled with any letter other than A (owed to the incredibly commonly known word and pronunciation "extra", not the pronunciation of the letter A per se). I'll actually counter this by saying people are more likely to spell extravert "incorrectly" the correct way instead of with an O based on how it's pronounced. I'm sure lots of people pronounce "extro" like "intro" now, but most probably don't. And using the letter "O" to represent an "uh" sound is very unintuitive - we'll have to change how we say the word, at which point it's equivalent to extravert in ease of pronunciation->spelling... except that "extro" is not an existing word people know, but "extra" was.

 

Oh, and "extruvert" would not be pronounced like ex-truh-vert. I know English's rules and exceptions vary a lot, but I'm reasonably certain that would be ex-true-vert and nothing else. EG "Extrude/Extrusion"

  

3 hours ago, Breloomancer said:

woah there, I never said extravert should become incorrect. I have no idea what I could have said that would make you think that.

 

Because "extrovert" has become the commonly accepted spelling, Chrome now marks "extravert" as a typo by default. Supporting "extrovert" is supporting "extravert" becoming incorrect, unfortunately. Since extrovert is winning, all we can really do is maintain extravert's relevancy. And it's got literally every reason to stay relevant while extrovert has none.

 

  

3 hours ago, Breloomancer said:

why are you acting like you are fighting for some noble cause? what horrible thing will happen when people stop spelling extraovert with an a?

 

I was actually considering making an unrelated/reset post explaining exactly how I feel on this subject if you made a post of arguments I just saw no value in responding to, but this prompt works too-

 

I have no particular attachment to the word "extravert/extraversion" itself that makes me want to focus on it. It's simply the fact that I know it has every reason to be spelled extra-vert, but is more commonly spelled extro-vert after a typo a long time ago, but is still spelled extra-vert in professional documents - it makes this word feel like the perfect conduit for protesting stupid-ification of, well, I could say anything in culture in general, but we should just go with English. A mistake is being taken as fact and overwriting the provably correct way of doing it. This just bothers me a lot on some level, and while I know it happens all the time to tons of words and other non-linguistic concepts, this is the most clear-cut and widely understandable case of the concept happening. It's an error that has every reason to be corrected and not supported. It's just one in a thousand examples of the same problem (in linguistics, but the general concept can be applied to like.. a lot of things), but it's the one I've decided represents the problem best and so I'm sticking with it.

 

If professionals (and so basically the only organized group of holdouts) switch to using the incorrect form extrovert, I feel like it would represent a loss of legitimacy to our language as a whole. Why would I ever defend any aspect of English ever again if it can't even follow its own clearly cut rules and spellings? What value does this language hold at all? Might as well communicate in vague hand gestures. To me this is like if enough people did a common math problem wrong and people just decided to change the solution, like "Well technically it's provable that 1/3 (0.3333... repeating) is not an infinite number, but everyone agrees it makes intuitive sense for it to be infinite, so it just is now". That would make me lose faith in mathematics as a field.

 

I get (but hate, in this case) that languages "evolve" over time, but I also have zero respect for any ""rules"" in English if extravert is allowed to be corrupted into extrovert. If you'll really defend a ridiculously exaggerated hypothetical like "if I decided "rock" was spelled "roak" and got enough people to start spelling it like that, "roak" would become an okay and eventually the spelling of rock?" with a "Yes, if it became popularly accepted" - our disagreement boils down to considering that okay or not.

 

I don't really care about how language works, that's not okay with me. There are okay times for language to evolve, like if a word changes its spelling to more accurately fit a ~new way people are universally pronouncing the word - and "whoops, we spelled the word wrong in our article" is not an acceptable cause for "evolution". It's entirely indefensible, in my opinion.

 

Also, this would be somewhat different if the word was simply translated poorly from Latin to English and given an o despite the a making far more sense - but the A form of extraversion showed up two years earlier, and there's very good reason to believe the O version two years later was literally just a typo.

Edited by Luminesce

Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.

Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.

My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us stuff.

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45 minutes ago, Luminesce said:

You use those IPA pronunciations I still don't know if I like, but I speak English, and I know that "extrivert", "extrovert", "extruvert", "extrevert", and "extravert" are all pronounced differently. Ex-truh-vert couldn't reasonably be spelled with any letter other than A (owed to the incredibly commonly known word and pronunciation "extra", not the pronunciation of the letter A per se). I'll actually counter this by saying people are more likely to spell extravert "incorrectly" the correct way instead of with an O based on how it's pronounced. I'm sure lots of people pronounce "extro" like "intro" now, but most probably don't. And using the letter "O" to represent an "uh" sound is very unintuitive - we'll have to change how we say the word, at which point it's equivalent to extravert in ease of pronunciation->spelling... except that "extro" is not an existing word people know, but "extra" was.

 

Oh, and "extruvert" would not be pronounced like ex-truh-vert. I know English's rules and exceptions vary a lot, but I'm reasonably certain that would be ex-true-vert and nothing else. EG "Extrude/Extrusion"

the only reason why you would pronounce it differently is if you change the stress so that the second syllable is stressed, otherwise all of those vowels would become a schwa. every vowel in english can sometimes be used to represent a schwa

 

it seems like this has finally mostly come to a close. I knew that this conversation had become unproductive quite a while ago, but I decided to stick with it just to see what would happen. the results are quite disappointing: Lumi made some weird and bad arguments; I got frustrated and nearly lost my cool a few times; neither of us changed stances and instead we doubled down onto our original arguments; Lumi kept saying that he wasn't going to argue a point while arguing said point; Lumi was just fine with acknowledging my arguments that said that both spellings were fine, but ignored my argument that using o is better than a; Lumi's main arguments were an appeal to professionalism and an appeal to tradition, which only work if you agree that being professional and following traditions are good; Lumi constantly calls the o spelling a typo, and says that the a spelling has every reason to be used and is "provably correct". the takeaway from this: don't keep arguing when you already know that the argument is past the point of usefulness, it will only get worse from there, and avoid getting into an argument with Lumi about AAVE, since that is bound to be even worse

 

I will now say my closing statement: Lumi, language isn't math; there is no right or wrong; the rules are made up and the points don't matter


I have a tulpa named Miela who I love very much.

 

 
"People put quotes in their signatures, right?"

-Me

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