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47 minutes ago, Flandre said:

Basically, the most important thing we've realized about motivation issues, including ours but honestly it's the same people experience with depression - DOING things is not hard, THINKING about them is. COMMITTING to them is. But DOING them rarely is. I mean, it can be, but 99% of the time it's not. And if it is, the difficulty still tends to pale in comparison to how hard it was to think about doing.

Wow!! Cool to hear that you’re experimenting with and experiencing this as well!

     This is where that Seneca quote that comes to mind seems to apply - “we suffer more often in imagination than reality.” See, I think this can be the downside to the imagination - the freedom to construct ideas of brilliant achievement also allows for the construction of anxieties and things like that!

I guess that makes it all the more important to figure out how it’s working for us and how we can control it so it doesn’t control us!

47 minutes ago, Flandre said:

So, the trick is, think of something you think you should do or want to do, decide to do it - and then stop thinking about it. Yes, the deciding part can still be hard, we're still figuring that out. But otherwise, this has worked great. The easiest and most successful application for us so far has been brushing our teeth. Many days we do it just fine, but some days we just really don't want to and just want to go to bed. But we've been able to decide that we need to do it, and then stopped thinking about it (usually switching to thinking about anything else, but I guess not thinking at all could work too if you prefer) while walking to the bathroom. This concept should work for showering for us too, but we still have to decide we want to do it. And I mean, it really should work for just about everything.

That’s the same thing we do!! Hahaha I just think that’s funny that you do the same thing, and that’s one of the first things we started doing (focusing on) to ‘get the ball rolling.’ It’s one of the simplest things we can do that’s necessary and equates to ‘taking care of oneself.’ And this plays into other ideas like “if you can’t make your bed you’re probably not going be able to organize an army to conquer a city.” And the idea of big, seemingly un-doable things simply being the accumulation of small, do-able things. So brushing teeth is like the first goal my host did to start building momentum for the day. Once he brushed his teeth then it was easier to weigh himself and record it in a daily to-do list. All this is building confidence because you’re accomplishing goals, objectively being ‘productive,’ so then acknowledging that made it  easier to eat and workout, take a shower, and it can build on itself, we call it ‘momentum.’

 

     This thing about “not thinking about it more than you have to so you can save energy” reminds me of the same thing this guy was saying in this productivity book we’re reading! He says ‘people say I must be stressed out all the time because of me making so many schedules, but it actually helps me stay calm because I don’t have to think about anything beyond it. I’ve already catalogued all the thinking required for what I need into the schedules when I make them once a week, so now I don’t have to spend any energy wondering if I’m missing something! I just do the schedule, and then stop thinking afterwards so I can simply do it without having to waste energy thinking about it more than I have to.’

 

”Also Sierra has switched with me during depressive episodes before and it’s actually worked for me because she would “take over” and then it’s like my reality would shift and then it would kinda dissipate as she started looking at things as herself and I took on the role she normally takes while I’m fronting (like transplanting personalities or something).”

Yes, and I actually remember being able to feel what I call the “residual” depressive symptoms for a short time after switching! Like a big deep exhausting heaviness in the body, I was surprised how physical the sensations were. But it would kinda clear up after a minute of me taking over, but that only worked a few times because he couldn’t remember to have me switch most of the time I think and bc of that I’d be kinda not able to assist I guess, so I couldn’t be of much help. But we both think it’s pretty remarkable that switching could change how the body felt like that the few times we tried it. It felt really weird, like the body adapting to the dominating personality or something, which I also think is kinda cool honestly.

47 minutes ago, Flandre said:

The hardest part of motivation issues is jumping the incredibly high hurdle so many activities start with - the jog or run of actually doing them after that hurdle is never "hard". Sometimes it's a lot of work or effort, but that work or effort never feels "hard" because we're already doing it. It's just that initial mental hurdle that's ridiculously difficult. So learning to start walking towards the hurdle and the run, but then looking away from the hurdle and forgetting it exists... might be the key to overcoming motivation issues.

There’s gotta be something to that! He says “the hardest part is just getting started” a lot! “I think if I can just focus on the very first thing then the rest will follow.” Objects in motion tend to stay in motion, objects at rest tend to stay at rest. Like going from sleeping to awake or vis versa, it seems like it takes the most effort to change states of energy rather than continue what one is already doing.

 

47 minutes ago, Flandre said:

In our 12 years of dealing with motivation issues, this is the only thing that's shown any results,

“I dealt with (damn, saying it in the past tense feels good lol) depression for like 5 years straight and this too is one of the techniques that’s helped me significantly (and I’ve tried a lot of random shit), and this is one of the things I’ve been applying when I started seeing results.”

 

47 minutes ago, Flandre said:

We usually do the opposite; we frequently leave or prepare food for a systemmate before switching with them. Our system dynamic is just like that, though

Haha that’s sweet though! I think I want to do that more often 😂

 

and thanks for all the convos guys, we talkin some cool stuff heeya

”feels good man”

Edited by Sierra

I’m Couguhl‘s tulpa! [his words are in quotes]

..JSYK

———-

“Now I know why they have [self-]bans!” -Me

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55 minutes ago, Breloomancer said:

I don't know about y'all, but in my experience, doing a thing can often be just as difficult as thinking about doing a thing. sometimes it's just your mind messing with you and doing the thing isn't so bad, but other times I struggle past my mind stopping me from starting on something, and then that thing is completely horrible and monstrous and takes forever and is mind numbingly boring. there is no trick that will allow you to get past it, and no hurdle that you have to overcome that it becomes easy to do afterwards. sometimes it's just... bad. I haven't found a solution for that yet. if any of you have one I would love to hear it though

 

Drawing practice maybe falls into this category for me. I can't just do it. It actually is kind of miserable, though it has a lot to do with negative feelings other than boredom, but that too since it can suck to draw things I dont want to just for getting better. 

 

The best thing to help with these kinds of things in my experience is meditation. Becoming skillful at meditation and creating a powerful capability of focusing is such a powerful tool. The thing about boredom is you general aren't bored because the object of your attention is inherently boring. You are bored because your attention isnt stable, and that is because things that we perceive as boring are difficult to focus on because they suck, as opposed to interesting things that automatically draw your focus in without trying. This is such a great insight

 

If you meditate skillfully, it becomes literally impossible to be bored because you can effortlessly plant your attention on anything you want. The byproduct of this is that everything seems inherently interesting and satisfying. 

 

This is why my life was better than it had ever been for a while. All of my meditation skills are kaput now though because very bad life events and my consistent practice being derailed. I intend to get it back but I'm just struggling in general I guess atm

 

I sincerely hope it can help you too

 

 

Edited by TB

Creation for creation's sake.

 

More of my drawings

 

Resident Dojikko

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I was thinking that drawing can be a good example of something that stays consistently hard to do. But, that's not always true for everyone, or for every drawing, so it was hard to qualify. There are people who just draw and either enjoy or don't particularly feel anything while drawing. Of course, nearly everyone we know finds it a very difficult activity to get motivated to do. Most of them tend to appreciate it after having done it, though.

Hi. I'm one of Luminesce's tulpas. Unlike the others, I don't think I stand out too much from him personality wise.

I'm just special because "I'm a tulpa". So I don't think I've much to offer, here. I'm happy enough to just be with him.

Ask us stuff - https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas

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Yeah. I envy those who just love drawing for the sake of it and cant stop. I wish that was me, lol. Basically like Goku but with drawing instead of fighting. It is so innocent.

 

I feel with enough meditation it would be attainable, but boy peeling back the layers of my mind is like laying on a scalding stove. I need more strategies than just brute meditation alone, although that works for many

Creation for creation's sake.

 

More of my drawings

 

Resident Dojikko

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I was just playing some old songs on K-Shoot Mania, and I've just.. been struck with an intense desire to "fulfill" so many transient feelings. So many emotions, feelings, desires - things that can never come to fruition, that will never be truly experienced. How could we make them real? Dancing, dreaming, creating? For how strong this feeling is, I'm not sure even lucid dreaming would be enough. I want to make them real, solid, to share them with others, to fully appreciate them...

 

But it's been minutes since I left the game and the music to write this post, and I don't even remember them anymore, just the feeling of longing. Wanting to realize what I feel. It's unbearable, really, knowing the feelings will go away, unfulfilled, after every song ends. K-Shoot, and any rhythm game for that matter, is a poor medium to try and realize those feelings with. I don't think we could ever dance well enough, but.. dance seems like the purest and most realistic way to express how music makes us feel. I doubt it can do what even dreams can't, though. I suppose the only thing greater than dreams in this sense would be various hallucinogens, but there's no point in experiencing something so profound only for yourself. That's why dancing, drawings, poetry and so on are so impressive despite paling in comparison - they can be shared.

 

 

Anyways.. the part just after 1:17 in that video was what finally made me have to write this post, though I'd been feeling this on a handful of our favorite songs before that. The video (which is kind of quiet, maybe turn it up?) just happens to have been uploaded by Lucilyn a couple years ago. It seems a bit silly I'm sure, probably sounds like techno nonsense to most of you. We've had a few years to become super nostalgic for it though. But apply this post to any music of your choice that you feel in your soul, and that's what I'm talking about. Though there are non-music concepts and feelings I'm talking about too, they're truly difficult or impossible to share. At least with music you can pretend someone else might feel what you feel.

 

The feeling of wanting to "realize" music is actually the basis of the appeal of most rhythm games, at least for music lovers like us. Feeling like you're expressing the music somehow..

Edited by Flandre
added "which is kind of quiet" parentheses

Hi. I'm one of Luminesce's tulpas. Unlike the others, I don't think I stand out too much from him personality wise.

I'm just special because "I'm a tulpa". So I don't think I've much to offer, here. I'm happy enough to just be with him.

Ask us stuff - https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas

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2 hours ago, Breloomancer said:

I don't know about y'all, but in my experience, doing a thing can often be just as difficult as thinking about doing a thing. sometimes it's just your mind messing with you and doing the thing isn't so bad, but other times I struggle past my mind stopping me from starting on something, and then that thing is completely horrible and monstrous and takes forever and is mind numbingly boring. there is no trick that will allow you to get past it, and no hurdle that you have to overcome that it becomes easy to do afterwards. sometimes it's just... bad. I haven't found a solution for that yet. if any of you have one I would love to hear it though

“Yeah there definitely are some things that consistently seem like a grind.. I like that people bring up drawing because painting is a good example for me, the challenging ones can be a grind and I have to learn to love the process and grind that axe so to speak.”

 

We’ll definitely have to sleep on that! Thinking of more examples about that and solutions..

 

”Now that I think about it, I’ve been running a lot lately and I can say that it sucks pretty consistently for me. I’ll jog like 5 miles at a time though, like every 3 days, so it’s pretty strenuous, and my body’s finally adapting to it and I feel stronger. But it takes almost an hour, and a lot of the time I’m just like damn I really gotta do this lol. One thing I remember is David goggins saying he was talking to someone in the navy seals hell week training and they were saying “how’s it possible you’re not cold?” it was 50 degrees F and the water was 50 too, and he wasn’t shivering. David explained that the reason the other guy was cold was because he was wishing it was over, and that he was probably counting down the seconds until they let everyone out. Then he said ‘the reason I’m not cold is because I want it to be colder! I wish they would keep us in here longer! And the more I wished for the worst, the warmer the water got.’ I can say I’ve used this technique pretty successfully! Recently I’ve gone into runs thinking “I’m gonna make this run suck harder than any other run I’ve done so far.” And consciously wishing that it was worse but it wasn’t made it seem really easy, and then I actually went further and was less winded than I had been before then.”

2 hours ago, Flandre said:

Sure, there are things that are hard to keep doing once you've started. But 99% of things we struggle to do, like showering or going for a walk, are not actually hard to do. They're just really hard to think about doing.

 

Might only make sense to people who actually have motivation issues though. Most people can butter toast without any hassle. Personally we don't even bother making toast in the first place because it's too much effort for too little reward.

“I think there’s something to that.”

Yeah, it seems like certain people are more susceptible to this kind of thing or could have modified resilience or something, like “smart” people, or “analytical,” or “sensitive” people, or even depression or motivation issues, etc. but for a lot of people they don’t seem to get bogged down so to speak. I think it’s interesting that I don’t really feel like I’ve been depressed but my host has so I understand where he’s coming from.

”Yeah my dad doesn’t understand it at all and almost kinda denied that I had it or was being dramatic or something, and yet hr went through a lot of shit growing up, so it wasn’t like he hadn’t experienced hardship. He just said he’d never had obstacles get to the point where they were so overwhelming they turned into depression symptoms I guess. Just one example, but I feel like a lot of people can be relatively more resilient or something, or perhaps have tendencies that modify susceptibility to motivation issues.”

Also @TB 

Quote

The best thing to help with these kinds of things in my experience is meditation. Becoming skillful at meditation and creating a powerful capability of focusing is such a powerful tool. The thing about boredom is you general aren't bored because the object of your attention is inherently boring. You are bored because your attention isnt stable, and that is because things that we perceive as boring are difficult to focus on because they suck, as opposed to interesting things that automatically draw your focus in without trying. This is such a great insight”

“I have some experience with meditation but those are some amazing insights!! I haven’t thought about it that way relating to boredom, or that boredom can be conceived that way, but that’s a great way of understanding it!”

 

Thanks for that!! Yeah you can almost feel your attention wavering around while bored because it’s like a form of procrastination - avoiding what one doesn’t want to do and a lack of focus!

 

”But I feel like this is important because that’s where overcoming the grind comes into play. If it’s something like painting or running that is like grinding an axe, staying focused can be the key to not feeling overwhelmed by boredom and giving up on a task. I think when it gets to a certain point it can be called “flow!” That’s the term I hear describing it. It’s like being completely focused on the task at hand, not thinking about irrelevant things, just supremely focused in a relaxed way, and it can often feel effortless.”

Edited by Sierra

I’m Couguhl‘s tulpa! [his words are in quotes]

..JSYK

———-

“Now I know why they have [self-]bans!” -Me

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Definitely went and danced to the full version of that song, of course. For some reason we never looked it up before, but I fixed that - we now have the album in .FLAC quality (and this particular song is 51MB)

 

Hi. I'm one of Luminesce's tulpas. Unlike the others, I don't think I stand out too much from him personality wise.

I'm just special because "I'm a tulpa". So I don't think I've much to offer, here. I'm happy enough to just be with him.

Ask us stuff - https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas

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1 hour ago, Flandre said:

I was just playing some old songs on K-Shoot Mania, and I've just.. been struck with an intense desire to "fulfill" so many transient feelings. So many emotions, feelings, desires - things that can never come to fruition, that will never be truly experienced. How could we make them real? Dancing, dreaming, creating? For how strong this feeling is, I'm not sure even lucid dreaming would be enough. I want to make them real, solid, to share them with others, to fully appreciate them... 

 

I maybe understand. I fear trying to describe it, but being able to innocently and purely express self without anything to hold back. I may be off but I may call it the primordial perfection. Probably a nonsense word to anyone reading it but it is an attempt to refer to something that mostly every human loses growing up and searches for without end.

 

42 minutes ago, Sierra said:

Also @TB 

“I have some experience with meditation but those are some amazing insights!! I haven’t thought about it that way relating to boredom, or that boredom can be conceived that way, but that’s a great way of understanding it!”

 

Thanks for that!! Yeah you can almost feel your attention wavering around while bored because it’s like a form of procrastination - avoiding what one doesn’t want to do and a lack of focus!

 

”But I feel like this is important because that’s where overcoming the grind comes into play. If it’s something like painting or running that is like grinding an axe, staying focused can be the key to not feeling overwhelmed by boredom and giving up on a task. I think when it gets to a certain point it can be called “flow!” That’s the term I hear describing it. It’s like being completely focused on the task at hand, not thinking about irrelevant things, just supremely focused in a relaxed way, and it can often feel effortless.”

 

I'm very glad the insight seems helpful to you. It brings me joy for anyone to use any meditation advice I may give, especially since I find it so important. I fear people get sick of me talking about it, lol.

 

Also you are right. Flow is destroyer of boredom. Flow is a source of joy. People say people improve/learn fast if they are having fun. That is because the having fun is a direct byproduct of flow, and flow is the result of continual focus, which can be trained deliberately so it can be accessed any time one wishes.

 

Having this tool under one's belt is part of the way to attaining happiness independent of conditions that buddhism is about

Creation for creation's sake.

 

More of my drawings

 

Resident Dojikko

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