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Ask Lumi's Tulpas


Luminesce

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On 3/12/2021 at 10:09 AM, Jamie said:

Just roughly, what have you seen in other systems? What has been the timeline on how long it takes a new tulpamancer to end up with a vocal tulpa? How long does the active creation process last before it transitions into just, daily life? 

 

I want to say a good swath of tulpamancers have a vocal tulpa within the first week. After that, I think it's more common to see people claim they achieved vocality around week 2-4. After that, I think far less people take more than a month to achieve vocality and then a smaller group struggle with achieving vocality for months or years.

 

I made this doodle in paint to illustrate my thinking. THESE ARE NOT REAL NUMBERS, just my guess of what I think the data would look like if everyone could say when their tulpas became vocal. After the second month I imagine the line continuing to get thinner and thinner to the point you can't see it anymore.

 

image.png.efc19239efc705541380e604b0158bba.png

 

Of course, I remember speaking to quite a few tulpamancers who report having trouble with vocality and still trying to make a tulpa after years of trying. I wanted to illustrate this graph because I think a lot of people achieve vocality really early on.

 

However, an instantly vocal or a near-instant vocal tulpa is still a tulpa, and those people are just as likely to ask for help with parrotnoia as the group who take a few more weeks. In the end, it doesn't really matter how long it takes for your tulpa to start talking, it seems to better reflect how people approach and define vocality in general.

 


 

On 3/13/2021 at 12:16 PM, Luminesce said:

In this case, falling into roleplaying. If you "learn to switch" extremely early on (relative, but in my mind, ~the first week or two), there's a solid chance you won't have developed your tulpa nearly enough to support such an activity. If your tulpa's existence isn't strongly solidified in your mind yet, I honestly see switching as more likely to be roleplaying or "creating mask personalities" than actually switching with your tulpa. Maybe no one talks about it, but switching really does require both headmates have a well deveoped sense of self (And of course, most hosts have been developing one for themselves their whole life). Your brain needs to know what your tulpa is like relatively in-depth in order to switch with and then be them - a weak, not very developed tulpa who is still close to just an imaginary friend without their own stable, autonomous presence is not a good candidate for this.

 

I don't think a tulpa that switches in week 2 will lead to roleplaying, but I think other problems will pop up instead. A tulpa can learn a lot from switching, but I think it would have been better if the host knew exactly who they are switching with. My main concern is a young tulpa will violate some system rules or their host's trust and hurt their ability and confidence to switch again. A young tulpa could also have an identity crisis from switching and have fronting anxiety that slows progress down moving forward. The reason I don't think this counts as roleplaying is because I think young tulpas do have autonomy, they just borrow a lot of ideas on who they are from their host because that's what who they know about the most.

 

I think it's worth noting in our system, a basic sense of separation had more or less already been established by the time our system was growing at an unhealthy rate. It's possible my thoughts on this are more applicable to a system where the ability to separate has already been established and roleplaying is more of an issue when that hasn't been learned yet.

I'm Ranger, Gray's/Cat_ShadowGriffin's tulpa, and I love hippos! I also like cake and chatting about stuff. I'm undecided on Rosalind or Rosalin, and my male name is Ronan. You can call me Roz but please don't call me Ron.

My other headmates have their own account now.

Temporary Log | Switching LogcBox | Yay! | Bre Translator

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I just think it's the most likely way for "screwing up tulpamancy" to happen. Most systems who learn to switch super early will prooobably be fine. Especially if they're not 12-14 years old, but that goes for all of tulpamancy.

 

Less mental inhibitions during that age, but far more drama and susceptibility to intrusive thoughts, or really, just subconsciously wanting things to go wrong.

 

 

(Also I don't think faking a graph like that has any point at all, if you're not using statistics you should probably just say it in words)

 

(also also, I don't think I agree with your graph at all, unless you specified a time and place where it applied)

Edited by Luminesce

Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.

Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.

My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us stuff.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Question for Reisen: my understanding is that you sort of embody the concept of unconditional love in your system. (Sorry if this is an overly simplistic view of things.)

In light of this, I was wondering if you have any thoughts on the Buddhist concept of metta. There is a translation of the metta sutta here (don't worry, it is pretty short)--does what is described there resonate with your ideas about unconditional love?

Edited by Wray
fixed typo

Host: Wray (or John) (he, him)
Tulpa: Shizuku (she, her) 🐺

We now have a progress report!

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Sure, that all sounds good. It feels weird to try and define it with words, but all of that matches I suppose.

 

I think the weird feeling for me here, especially thinking back to Lumi's self-help days, is that these ideas are all proposed like... goals, to strive towards? Like you need to "stop being apathetic", "start caring for others" - that you need to change who you are to match those things. Something about that feels wrong to me. The logical response to that is "So, what, you just have to already be like that, and if you're not you can't do anything about it?"

 

Obviously, that's not right either. But I know this feeling of trying to become what someone else says is the best way to be from Lumi's past. Let me try to put it in words:

 

All of these ideals are not external goals that you have to strive for and change yourself to match - rather, they all arise naturally from inside. I'm not sure how one moves towards that point if it's not where they're at, exactly, and surely trying to better yourself in practical ways towards those ideals can't hurt. But I just feel like that won't ever lead you all the way there; if you don't feel compassion for all living things, if you don't truly want the best for everyone, even bad people - I don't think you can put yourself there through logic.

 

Anyone could surely logically choose to act according to those ideals, but it would feel very different from your actions arising naturally from within, I think.

 

Well! I've never really been through the process myself, so I'll say: Logically aligning yourself with those ideals is a great place to start! How else to get a feel for it than to try and live it, huh? Surely someone who can't even logically uphold those ideals won't be able to feel they're true deep down. Though I do wonder, as someone who does feel they're true, if my beliefs even hold up to logic? Is it logical not to hate someone who's done nothing but hurt you? Is it logical to wish good will upon those who won't acknowledge it? Really, is it logical to be at peace when the world around you appears to be chaos?

 

To me, these things are logical, but to others they surely aren't. I'm not sure if the logic supporting them, or the unconditional belief that they're true, comes first. But I at least know that once within this mindset, your logic supports them.

 

 

Sorry, maybe not having made the journey myself makes it harder for me to guide others. But I believe in anyone who is on that path! (And that includes my host!)

Edited by Reisen

Hi guys, plain text is just me now! We've each got our own accounts: me, Tewi, Flandre, and Lucilyn. We're Luminesce's tulpas.

Here's our "Ask Thread", and here's our Progress Report (You should be able to see all of our accounts on the second page if you want)

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If happiness for self and others is the goal, unconditional love appears to be logical to me. It also arises naturally unless there are things in play to prevent it, which generally there always are for most people, but one can work to remove the obstructions

 

Hatred can be kind of logical from the context of the parts of the mind that are generating it. Whether hatred is logical I feel can be compared to valid and sound arguments. Hatred may be valid, but since its premises supporting it generally are not actually true, it is not sound

 

Metta meditation can allow a person who is hate filled and generally has ill will for many be able to feel compassion and well wishing for those people instead. It is a temporarily generated state, though, but it gets better with more practice as far as I can tell, however life events are subject to reverse or slow progress if one isn't careful. Working on it still can lead to better outcomes for self and others, and over time makes large changes in a person. As such I'd recommend anyone to practice it, but that's up to them

 

Metta is a useful tool for achieving unconditional love as it can be a path that leads to removing that which obstructs it from occurring naturally

 

That's what I think based on my experience and what I've learned, anyway. Still figuring things out. This is trimmed down version

Creation for creation's sake.

 

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On 3/28/2021 at 3:42 PM, Reisen said:

Is it logical not to hate someone who's done nothing but hurt you? Is it logical to wish good will upon those who won't acknowledge it?

 

Even those who havd done nothing but hurt you were once innocent children. If they do nothing but hurt you, doesn't that mean they care about what you think enough to engage? Even if hurting you is total neglect and they ignore your every attempt to engage them, that still takes effort and intention.

 

Why do you need them to do anything but express themself? You are allowed to dislike the means but the message is clear from them "I hurt."

 

Thinking of it that way, consider a child is lashing out because they hurt, is it fair to hate them for it? If you love yourself, you have more than enough love to go around regardless of what they do. Even if you never reach that inner child, haterd is more a function of your relationship with yourself than anyone else.

 

To hate them for anything they do is admitting that you hate that behavior regardless of who is doing it, even yourself. 

 

Try to understand why someone would do what they do then try to understand why you would be personally hurt by that knowing the hidden meaning.

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Although she meant those as two different examples, your point still applies the same. That's basically it, I guess - I don't think I really embody all that metta stuff, but I do fully believe and live the "Caring about all people unconditionally" and "Not hating anyone" things. Everyone's just people. Everyone was led to what they do by the events before and during their lives. React as necessary for your own best interest (you do not need to "forgive" or "love" someone who is hurting you in the sense that you accept their hurting you - just understand why they are, maybe, but act accordingly), but don't hold a grudge or take it personally.

 

"but don't hold a grudge or" sounds wrong, just like how Reisen was saying it did, though. The key really isn't to apply those two things I just said, the key is to have the understanding that will lead to not holding grudges or taking things personally arising naturally. Even if you copy the handful of things we might suggest along those lines, you're not really living it until it naturally arises from your belief/understanding/feeling. Like copying the right answers on a math test - sure, you got those questions right, but you didn't learn and are still unprepared to solve problems yourself. I'd put it like that I guess.

 

Anyways, Reisen's definitely got more of those metta aspects down than me, though I can comfortably say I truly do not blame anyone for anything, or take things personally deep down. That understanding of people is why I started calling myself a humanitarian six or seven years ago.

Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.

Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.

My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us stuff.

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Intellectually knowing these things doesn't seem to stop pain or suffering caused by other people unfortunately though. Other people's cruelty inspires desire to be cruel to them, but I don't act on it, I just take the damage I guess and try to survive. It isn't fun, but I hope it gets better somehow.

 

I guess it is supposed to get better, but I am one of those people who generate "karma" faster or almost as fast as I lose it, so being in a bad situation seems to make my spiritual practice stagnate. This is why monks abandon worldly life to live in a monastery or cave I imagine. I don't have that kind of courage, though. I just wish I had the power to live by myself, then I could maybe come to a place of having the permanent deep inner change that would make it so meeting people who go about intentionally causing suffering to others to not bother me.

Creation for creation's sake.

 

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I try to do the Zen thing and live free from attachment. It helps sometimes with negative feelings. Not always successful but it helps. In the end we're all just renting; mortality and all that. I just accept that both good and bad things will continue to happen to me and to focus on the good things. It's less a solution that's one and done, and more of a metaphysical medicine you have to take every day to keep the crazy away. Religion isn't my cup of tea but I see why it helps some folks.

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Jaina: Tulpa 💍 

Aggrok: Tulpa Void Dragon

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9 minutes ago, Glaurung26 said:

I just accept that both good and bad things will continue to happen to me and to focus on the good things.

I do this too. Though it's just made me see how powerful conditioning seems to be. There are many emotional related problems that seem highly resistant to change no matter how much understanding or effort I put towards shifting it

 

Since it is ask lumi's tulpas, I don't know if it is getting far from that or not. I think I'll ask then, have any of you had to change conditioning within yourselves, and if so how easy or hard was it and how was it done? How deep do you think it was?

 

I know Reisen changed lumi's cynicism towards the world I think, though I am not sure how easy or fast it was. And I suppose currently there is an attempt to change the motivation thing, though I am not sure if that is related to conditioning. Has there been anything else? I'm sorry if it was mentioned before

Creation for creation's sake.

 

More of my drawings

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