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Just found out Vsauce (well, Michael) brought up tulpamancy during a 3 hour video (that previously I only watched 30 minutes of, oops) interviewing people about his show Mind Field. Which, unrelated, is presently free for one year and I would highly recommend watching -

and
are my favorites, though I've only seen about 6 episodes so far. They're all on Vsauce's channel

 

[video=youtube]

1:05:15 For direct mention of tulpamancy and the Stanford study, the prior segment/conversation is moreso about placebo and power-of-the-mind stuff.

 

(I know this could go in the Tulpas In Media thread, and you can post this there if you want, but I meant for it more to be a discussion here.)


Hi, I'm Tewi, one of Luminesce's tulpas. I often switch to take care of things for the others.

All I want is a simple, peaceful life. With my family.

Our Ask thread: https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas

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Dr. Vessiere: And so to answer your question, yes, we're still working with tulpamancers. As you recalled, I did a cyber-ethnography years ago, with just a little bit of psychological testing on these really cool, weird young people who imagine - who conjure, imaginary friends, that they come to experience basically as auditory-visual hallucinations. Except they're not crazy, and they report an increase in well-being in their life, even social adjustment as a result of that they picked up the practice, so. People want to say that they're crazy they're hearing voices, and we think we're able to show that no in fact there's lots of context in which you can hear voices and be a very health person.

 

Dr. Vessiere: So now, under the leadership of Dr. Mike Lifshitz and Dr. Tanya Luhrmann at Stanford University, we're in the process of doing neuro-imaging of tulpamancers, and comparing them also to even evangelical Christians who speak in tongue. So we're interested in seeing what happens in the brain when either, a spirit or tulpa sort of takes over and starts talking, and we're interested in the motor areas of the brain as well. We want to see if something different is going on when say an agency other than the self, a tulpa or a spirit, is sort of in control.

 

Michael: Yeah, what does it look like in the brain when you aren't in control of your thoughts and behavior? Like if we can tease out the difference then are we literally finding like, that is your agency, that is your consciousness, your will, and if it's gone then you feel like you're possessed.

 

 

Crazy how he managed to vocally transcribe hypertext into his speaking, I know.


Hi, I'm Tewi, one of Luminesce's tulpas. I often switch to take care of things for the others.

All I want is a simple, peaceful life. With my family.

Our Ask thread: https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas

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Lol, you have mad skills.

 

Some important context since Michael asked about tulpamancers a few minutes earlier:

 

1:02:32

 

Michael: What are working on that I don't know about, that might be interesting for future episodes of Mind Field or on Vsauce? I know you were working with tulpamancers...

 

Dr. Vessiere: Mmnhm

 

Michael: That's still going on? And if so, explain what that is?

 

(And then Dr. Vessiere talks about other stuff before mentioning tulpamancers)

 

So Michael specifically asked about tulpamancers because he wants to make a video about them himself. That made my stomach churn for a couple reasons:

 

1) I don't like Michael, and I don't trust him. He had released the first episode of Mind Field Season 2 a while ago and that was about the trolly problem. I'm upset about that video because he basically wrecked the participants emotionally knowing that could happen and got away with that. Basically, he was willing to make money off of hurting other people, so I essentially decided never to watch any of his content ever again until he did this video, only watching the tulpamancy parts.

 

2) This makes me worried that he's not going to be ethical to tulpamancers either, since he has a similar motivation to the same people who made that MTV episode that was terrible. He's looking for the weirdest of the weird and I imagine he wants to make fun of us for views and cash. I'm concerned that he can greatly damage the tulpa communitiy's reputation and instead of bring in scientists and academics bring in trolls and media looking to publish things on freaks.


Pretty much my main wonderland form minus the cat parts, that's a separate form. I'm not a hippo, I promise.

I sometimes speak in pink and Ranger sometimes speaks in blue (if it's unmarked and colored assume it's Ranger). He loves to chat.

 

My other Tulpas have their own account now.

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he talked to an ethics board for that episode and they approved of it. I think that he went through all the necessary precautions to keep people from actually being emotionally scared.

 

I don't believe Michael has ever made fun of anyone on any of his videos, I highly doubt that he would change that for tulpamancy


I have a tulpa named Miela (formerly known as Monika) who I love very much.

 

 

"People put quotes in their signatures, right?"

-Me

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1) I don't like Michael, and I don't trust him.

 

Whoah, really? People have some interesting opinions! It's a little crazy to me that someone could even say that. That video and his Isolation one are the two Tewi listed as our favorites in fact.

 

Did you actually watch the whole Trolley Problem video, without skipping or not paying attention? True it was slightly risky, but a huge part of the video was simply working out how to make it as ethical as possible, consulting an actual university ethics board just to get their thoughts on it. They had professionals who would be available long-term even after the experiment was over just in case it did actually impact anyone too hard, among other things.

 

Of course, you're still free to not like the episode. But going so far as to say you don't like or trust Michael and even further that you think he would treat tulpamancers "unethically"? I have to be completely honest: That's such a stretch to me that I'm not even sure how to respond. I guess all I can say is that we've been very long time fans of Michael/Vsauce and love basically everything he stands for. No one's perfect, but we wish there were more people like him in the world. ... Though that sounds less nice when you've just mentioned disliking the ethics of his Trolley Problem experiment. Well.. it's still true.

 

 

... oh no, I hadn't read your 2) yet, and it got worse!

 

2) This makes me worried that he's not going to be ethical to tulpamancers either, since he has a similar motivation to the same people who made that MTV episode that was terrible. He's looking for the weirdest of the weird and I imagine he wants to make fun of us for views and cash. I'm concerned that he can greatly damage the tulpa communitiy's reputation and instead of bring in scientists and academics bring in trolls and media looking to publish things on freaks.

 

I don't think this is simply opinion anymore, you just don't know who he is! In that case, I can assure you Michael is a wonderful person who simply does things in the spirit of learning and sharing what he's learned! He's a very nice person with a gift for making learning fun, in a way reminiscent of Bill Nye. The way in which he creates content has never struck us as particularly efficient for money-making (compare MatPat who, while also a good person, is similarly intelligent and used his knowledge to streamline income from how he does his content). In Mind Field, he uses the funding from Youtube to do things that would never have been financially feasible as a random Youtuber. If you watch some of his other episodes, there's quite some expensive setup involved, which is basically the difference in "Vsauce" and Mind Field. But I assure you, money is not on his mind.

 

I'd go as far as to say I'm okay with whatever Michael decides to do in relation to tulpamancy. His take would be worth redefining our own for should it differ, that's what I think, that's how much trust we have in him. That said, tulpamancy would be a pretty terrible topic for a Mind Field episode.

 

But finally, are you sure he even implied he'd want to do an episode on tulpas? I kind of doubt it, but I guess we'll see. I'm just happy tulpamancy (funny they decided to keep the -mancy part) got a professional, positive mention on a big channel in a very scientific light.


Hi guys, plain text is just me now! We've each got our own accounts: me, Tewi, Flandre, and Lucilyn. We're Luminesce's tulpas.

Here's our "Ask Thread", and here's our Progress Report (You should be able to see all of our accounts on the second page if you want)

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Whoah, really? People have some interesting opinions! It's a little crazy to me that someone could even say that. That video and his Isolation one are the two Tewi listed as our favorites in fact.

 

The Isolation one (I forgot that I watched that and it was also free at the time) I didn't mind as much because Michael chose to put himself in harm's way, even though it was still unethical to a greater extent. At the very least he consented to doing that to himself, and he's an adult so alright, whatever. The fact he brought in people against their will was what I found to be so appalling.

 

Did you actually watch the whole Trolley Problem video, without skipping or not paying attention? True it was slightly risky, but a huge part of the video was simply working out how to make it as ethical as possible, consulting an actual university ethics board just to get their thoughts on it. They had professionals who would be available long-term even after the experiment was over just in case it did actually impact anyone too hard, among other things.

 

I watched the video twice, all the way through. He introduced the video with the Milligram experiment (another reason why I know he 100% knew he was going to hurt people) and mentioned the parallels, but then went on saying that old trolly problems are flawed because they we not "real" reactions since the participants didn't experience the life and death stakes. He then went to the ethics board saying that he thinks he will get refused (wtf, what happens if they say no? Are you going to publish the video then? I highly doubt it given all of the writing and work put into the script being the first episode, so my feeling is he wanted the answer to be yes.) After that, he recruited the participants. He applied the "safeties" and his team looked at the applicants backgrounds screening for mental illness and then later resilience to trauma. Next, the video explained what was coming- the participants waiting to pass out fliers are going to be lead into a room where the train engineer shows how to use the controls and how to flip the switch to change the train on the track. After that, they show the results- the participants end up making what they think is a life and death decision- 5 construction dudes on the track on one end, 1 on the other, and no way for the participant to call for help or warn the construction workers in time. After the train on camera got close to the workers, the screen of "relax, no one got hurt!" popped up, and the participants walked out of the room with their reactions recorded on camera. Some of them were really upset, especially if they froze in terror before they got the chance to hit the switch. They now have to live with the guilt of making that decision, something they never signed up for or were given consent. Michael said they got follow up therapy in the conclusion, but at the end of the day, it was for the greater good, right?

 

Wrong. That decision is already made by other people and we can learn from those stories, like the Milligram Experiment. Why did that need to be repeated? It's not even real science because it was made for YouTube Red and not published in a scientific journal or carried out in a formal fashion.

 

When I watched the participants faces as they walked out, deep inside I couldn't help but think this was wrong. These people were looking for some quick cash, not to be publicly humiliated on YouTube for freezing up and killing 5 simulated people which to them, were real people. Those people, who didn't do the socially accepted "right answer" and froze, got made fun of in the comment section for being chicken.

 

Even with all of those precautions, I still find that experiment unethical. The "safeties" put in place were designed to minimize damage, not to prevent it all together. Hell, those three people could have been deliberately chosen to say yes after he visited multiple ethics boards, but there's no way of knowing for sure. Why publish this video? It's entertaining. It's dramatic. It gets views. It gets people talking about it. Most importantly, it makes money.

 

Of course, you're still free to not like the episode. But going so far as to say you don't like or trust Michael and even further that you think he would treat tulpamancers "unethically"? I have to be completely honest: That's such a stretch to me that I'm not even sure how to respond. I guess all I can say is that we've been very long time fans of Michael/Vsauce and love basically everything he stands for. No one's perfect, but we wish there were more people like him in the world. ... Though that sounds less nice when you've just mentioned disliking the ethics of his Trolley Problem experiment. Well.. it's still true.

 

Part of why this tears me up a lot is because I was a huge Vsauce fan. I loved his regular videos because they were interesting and thought provoking. That's why this video was such a huge shock for me. I used to trust Michael for the content he gave out, and then I realized that given the power to make "science experiments" for TV, he had to go over the top to get a more general audience. That's when hurting a few people became possible, and he chose to pursue that to promote his TV show and his brand so YouTube could fork over more money to him so he can make more content.

 

I don't think this is simply opinion anymore, you just don't know who he is! In that case, I can assure you Michael is a wonderful person who simply does things in the spirit of learning and sharing what he's learned! He's a very nice person with a gift for making learning fun, in a way reminiscent of Bill Nye. The way in which he creates content has never struck us as particularly efficient for money-making (compare MatPat who, while also a good person, is similarly intelligent and used his knowledge to streamline income from how he does his content). In Mind Field, he uses the funding from Youtube to do things that would never have been financially feasible as a random Youtuber. If you watch some of his other episodes, there's quite some expensive setup involved, which is basically the difference in "Vsauce" and Mind Field. But I assure you, money is not on his mind.

 

I'd go as far as to say I'm okay with whatever Michael decides to do in relation to tulpamancy. His take would be worth redefining our own for should it differ, that's what I think, that's how much trust we have in him. That said, tulpamancy would be a pretty terrible topic for a Mind Field episode.

 

You can't say Michael doesn't think about money. There's no way he dedicates that amount of time into his channel and doesn't think about his next paycheck. Making a living off of YouTube is crazy hard, and he can't pump out hours of content every day without a team of people or some kind of business model. With everything Michael had, he didn't have to make that episode! There is plenty of weird and strange stuff out there in the world he could have chosen to do his video of. Why make a video where you can hurt people? It just doesn't add up. I have a feeling part of the shaping of this episode was on YouTube themselves, telling Michael to twist his episode in such a way. But why run with that? Why not choose something else?

 

But finally, are you sure he even implied he'd want to do an episode on tulpas? I kind of doubt it, but I guess we'll see. I'm just happy tulpamancy (funny they decided to keep the -mancy part) got a professional, positive mention on a big channel in a very scientific light.

 

He said tulpamancy specifically before Dr. Vessiere even said anything about it. That means it caught Michael's attention before he sat down for that interview and he was excited to ask about it after thinking about it. I don't know if he plans to have an entire episode, but given the resources he has access too, I can very easily see him being able to chunk an entire episode on that topic.


I'm not mad that you like him, I used to too. He made a lot of really good videos, and I doubt the quality of his videos has gone down. I'm not going to be mad at you if you still like his videos, I'm just sharing why to a larger extend I felt betrayed by him. At the time, there was a bunch of controversial stuff coming out of YouTube, so it's possible that skewed my perception as well. I'm not comfortable participating in his videos if he ever does come to us and asks for content (unless Ranger wants to send him a paragraph, I have no idea. Definitely no face-to-face interviews or sound clips from us).


Pretty much my main wonderland form minus the cat parts, that's a separate form. I'm not a hippo, I promise.

I sometimes speak in pink and Ranger sometimes speaks in blue (if it's unmarked and colored assume it's Ranger). He loves to chat.

 

My other Tulpas have their own account now.

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Michael said they got follow up therapy in the conclusion, but at the end of the day, it was for the greater good, right?

 

Wrong. That decision is already made by other people and we can learn from those stories, like the Milligram Experiment. Why did that need to be repeated?

 

(The Milgram Experiment was very different, I don't think any of the same conclusions can be drawn at all)

Otherwise, I think your thinking it's not for the greater good is where most people are going to differ, including our system, although I personally don't want to disagree with either side..

 

You can't say Michael doesn't think about money. There's no way he dedicates that amount of time into his channel and doesn't think about his next paycheck.

 

(I didn't mean money doesn't ever cross his mind, but rather it's not the driving motivation behind his content creation, and if he could I fully believe he'd do it for free)

 

With everything Michael had, he didn't have to make that episode!

 

Well, that's the thing, I'm pretty sure he wanted to. You have every right to take it how you did, but either way I fully believe he actually wanted to recreate this experiment. That said,

 

He then went to the ethics board saying that he thinks he will get refused (wtf, what happens if they say no? Are you going to publish the video then? I highly doubt it given all of the writing and work put into the script being the first episode, so my feeling is he wanted the answer to be yes.)

 

You know, he didn't.. have to go to any ethics boards. You're seeing that in a "*If they said no* - Whoops, what've I gotten myself into" way, whereas we saw it as him actually wanting help with how to make the experiment as ethical and non-damaging as possible (and also just to get opinions on it from professionals). Did they actually say yes by the end? All I remember was something along the lines of "Luckily, Mind Field doesn't have to answer to an ethics board." which.. now that you're making a big deal out of the whole concept, sounds awful, but at least when Tewi was watching it she was highly amused. Hmmm

 

Well, no, this was pretty much summed up in the first quote reply - it's kind of just how someone chooses to take it. There's really not much more to say, if you feel that way and we don't that's probably just where it ends huh? But for the record,

 

I'm not mad that you like him, I used to too. He made a lot of really good videos, and I doubt the quality of his videos has gone down. I'm not going to be mad at you if you still like his videos, I'm just sharing why to a larger extend I felt betrayed by him.

 

Not really what you want to hear, but it's not really just "the quality of his videos" we care about, we actually really like him as a person. But even if we weren't convinced his Trolley episode was an okay thing to do, he's earned far more than enough forgiveness with who he is to us to make up for it. Like, we might've thought he was ever so slightly dangerous (we don't), but by no means would our opinion of him still being a good person have changed.

 

Well, that's about all there is to say there.


Hi guys, plain text is just me now! We've each got our own accounts: me, Tewi, Flandre, and Lucilyn. We're Luminesce's tulpas.

Here's our "Ask Thread", and here's our Progress Report (You should be able to see all of our accounts on the second page if you want)

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Can't we... like, make a letter and email/tweet/something it loudly at Micheal? "Sincerely, the tulpa community." Saying, I don't know, "don't do an MTV," however you want to phrase that. Basically plead for good, fair converage. Saying, "Come ask us questions." 

 

I know tulpamamcers are a secretive bunch on average and we don't really set out to make it on the news or in the paper or on the top of reddit or whatever, but still. He clearly knows what tulpas are. I think this is a place we can advocate. -J



"Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth."

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Again, I really don't think he's going to make an episode about tulpas. He only seemed interested in the Stanford study and its results, not the phenomenon as a whole


Hi guys, plain text is just me now! We've each got our own accounts: me, Tewi, Flandre, and Lucilyn. We're Luminesce's tulpas.

Here's our "Ask Thread", and here's our Progress Report (You should be able to see all of our accounts on the second page if you want)

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