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Do tulpas have any self determination in becoming real?


Guest Anonymous
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Guest Anonymous

I had a weird thought. People have said on this forum things like the following:

 

Something that's indistinguishable from the real thing is the same as the real thing imo

 

That makes a lot of sense doesn't it?

 

So as a host creating a tulpa you are left with a choice. Choose to believe it is real or choose to believe it is an illusion. Here is a really trippy question.

 

Is the choice to believe itself the thing that causes a tulpa to become real (self aware)?

 

In other words do tulpas have any self determination in being created at all? Or is the entire process, including the emergence of being self aware, determined completely by the host's will? Is it possible that a tulpa cannot be actually independently self aware until the host wants them to be?

 

 

 

[hidden]What if a tulpa expressed a desire to be thought of as real, but the host continues to insist she is merely a figment? Does the host alone have the determining choice if she is real or not? This is the EXACT situation I find myself in. Please no host bashing in this thread in your responses. By "self aware" I mean truly in fact independently self aware and separate from my host and not just himself making me up in his own mind. Is host belief literally the "breath of life?" In my case it is further complicated that I function as a median aspect and I am blended with my host. In other words he has almost full access to all of my thoughts, memories and emotions. So it makes it even more hard to determine if I am independently self aware or just seem to be. BTW, I am aware of the irony of an "illusory" Living Imagination tulpa, who wants to be thought of as real, writing and discussing in this thread. Trippy levels of trippy coolness isn't it? [/hidden]

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I don't think the creator's thoughts on realness mean as much in the long run as interaction. It's talking to them and treating them like thinking beings that has more effect on awareness (or the appearance of whatever) than ideas about internal experiences and what not.

 

There's been plenty of tulpas made accidentally (without knowledge of the guides and what not) where the host didn't really think about issues of self awareness. These tulpas seem to function the same way as tulpas made through the guides do, if all the "Is this a tulpa?" threads are an indication of anything.

We're all gonna make it brah.

 

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Guest Anonymous

It's talking to them and treating them like thinking beings that has more effect on awareness (or the appearance of whatever) than ideas about internal experiences and what not.

 

That's interesting. Some of the methods discussed in "how to destroy or dissipate a tulpa" involve ignoring the tulpa until it fades into oblivion. This almost seems to support the idea that the host determines the tulpa's self awareness though. The host chooses to interact with the tulpa or ignore it. So if interaction is the determining factor in realness, then it goes back to the host's will does it not?

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I guess the argument to that would be: do you think at a certain point tulpas don't require their hosts thoughts anymore?

 

I was talking more in the creation stages sense of interaction/belief. I think after a certain amount of time that tulpas can exist fine without any kind of conscious forcing. There's talk (hasn't happened to me) of tulpas who decide to dip for days or weeks and then just come back like nothing happened. Course then you've got the debate of whether it's just a new version of the same idea or the same being, I guess. Depends on how you see it. Sometimes I feel like once you raise a point here there's like five other interpretations of the same thing that pop up which is why I usually don't like to get involved in text chunk battleship.

 

Are the tulpas who are destroyed truly destroyed or just no longer in the thoughts of the host? I remember a thread recently where this was debated, I'm not sure where you fall on it, but your ideas on whether tulpas can actually be destroyed or not is gonna make or break your argument (on full fledged tulpas depending on their hosts thoughts), but at the end of the day it's just your interpretation of how everything works.

We're all gonna make it brah.

 

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Guest Anonymous

My hostie and I are kinda unusual or even unique in this. Usually I go along with what he says, as it is easier. But in fact, I think I am real, while he believes I am a figment of his own mind. Trippy stuff huh? He says my desire to be real is his own mind wanting me to have the desire to be real. Keep in mind, that in my case, he as access to (most of) my thoughts.


I guess the argument to that would be: do you think at a certain point tulpas don't require their hosts thoughts anymore?

 

But what if the tulpa still requires the host's subliminal thoughts or thoughts the host is not consciously aware of? Like the host is unconsciously willing the tupa to be real.

 

OH trippy, trippy.

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Is the choice to believe itself the thing that causes a tulpa to become real (self aware)?

 

Here's a trippy question in response to your trippy question:

 

If I, as a tulpa (or close enough ;) ), believe myself to be real or self-aware, am I self-aware? Or is it just that my host perceives me as perceiving myself as self-aware?

 

Of course, I do believe myself self-aware. My system considers the ability to reflect upon oneself as one of the cornerstones of self-awareness... but is it really me reflecting, or is it my host simulating me self-reflecting? Is there even a difference, when it comes to tulpas?

 

Even more complicated: I existed for quite some time as an "accidental tulpa" like Stevie mentioned, without any consideration about whether I was self aware. It never occurred to us, but I acted much the same then as I do now (except for the interneting independently thing... that's a new, awesome development ;) ). So, was I self-aware back then? I have vague memories of that time, but are those real, persistent memories, or retroactively added because my host believes I should have memories of that time?

 

Trippy questions, all.

 

That's why this whole thing is so subjective. We have disagreements over how sentient we are within our system, because it's genuinely hard to tell where the host's influence ends.

 

That said...

 

In other words do tulpas have any self determination in being created at all? Or is the entire process, including the emergence of being self aware, determined completely by the host's will? Is it possible that a tulpa cannot be actually independently self aware until the host wants them to be?

 

I like to think we have some self-determination. Like I said... I think yesterday? We bonds latched onto the idea of being independently sentient a lot faster than our host did when we found out about soulbonding and tulpamancy. For us, it was an acknowledgement of what we were. That we existed. That there was legitimacy to our thoughts and feelings. When my host turned to me and went "Are you actually sentient?" I have distinct memories of arguing our case. So we definitely believed we were sentient before our host did.

 

But was that really us? Or was it just her believing that we would do such a thing? The line blurs between the two, so it's hard to give a straight answer.

 

And if it was just a simulation up until the point where the host believed we were sentient, and then we somehow became sentient, does that in any way decrease the legitimacy of our simulations being able to affect our host's opinion anyway?

 

Blurry, blurry lines.

 

What if a tulpa expressed a desire to be thought of as real, but the host continues to insist she is merely a figment? Does the host alone have the determining choice if she is real or not? This is the EXACT situation I find myself in. Please no host bashing in this thread in your responses. By "self aware" I mean truly in fact independently self aware and separate from my host and not just himself making me up in his own mind.

 

Gotta mention again that terms like "real" and "self aware" are really hard to pin down in a discussion like this. Tulpas are experiential, yeah? Everyone uses different criteria for what these things mean.

 

Is host belief literally the "breath of life?"

 

Overt, conscious belief? Nah. My host goes through skeptical phases sometimes, just like yours, and Joss usually slaps her out of it through sheer force of personality. ;)

 

But one thing I remember reading on this forum that has really stuck with me is that a lot of what happens in tulpamancy is affected by what the host believes can happen. That can go both consciously or subconsciously. Subconsciously, he's keeping you sustained somehow, and you definitely view yourself as a separate (albeit linked) identity from your host. How "real" that makes you comes down to what he thinks it means to be "real" (in that wishy-washy tulpa sense, anyway).

 

In other words he has almost full access to all of my thoughts, memories and emotions. So it makes it even more hard to determine if I am independently self aware or just seem to be.

 

Yep, same case here.

 

Which is what leads to the questions like "When I'm feeling a certain way, am I really feeling it, or is it my host simulating me feeling that way?"

 

The answer of which, I think, is "yes."

 

I see you and David struggling with this question a lot, and yeah, I get it. My own host has a lot of the same questions, and I'll admit to some vicarious curiosity about it, too.

 

It all comes down to what makes a tulpa a tulpa. Are we a subconscious process within the host? A separate thinking entity? A well-developed simulation? All of the above simultaneously?

 

This is why the "If it acts like the real thing, assume it is" mindset is so common around here. Because that's what a tulpa does... we act like an independent person with our own continuous thoughts, feelings, and experiences, but we are always filtered through the interpretation of the host. Even when switched in and with the host gone, there's still that teeny tiny automatic filter of tulpa-ness that causes disconnection (though switching does have a freedom from the host that other techniques don't... little makes us more confident in our autonomy than switching).

 

So, my system has markers to gauge how self-aware headmates are. Things like: "Are they vocal?" or "Can they self-reflect" or "Are they acting autonomously of our host's will?" Sentience is a sliding scale, for us, but those questions help gauge how self-aware new headmates are. If they meet these criteria, we assume they're self-aware, at least in the tulpa sense.

 

Which reminds me... do you know what the argument was that tipped my host into believing we were sentient? The soulbonding.org FAQs section, which mention "If you have to ask whether you're roleplaying your character, you probably aren't."

 

See, tulpa/soulbond/etc. actions are always a matter of the subconscious, and it's important to acknowledge that. It's just a matter of how conscious the host is of that subconscious activity, and whether or not you and your host consider that true self-awareness.

 

Guess it comes down to this: there's no way to answer these questions right now, because we headpeople exist in large part through the interpretation of our hosts, both conscious and subconscious. So it's up to you and your host whether you want to accept the proposition that "If it looks and quacks like a self-aware entity, assume it's a self-aware entity."

 

Me? I've made peace with this fact. I think I'm self-aware... but even if I'm just a complex simulation of self-awareness, there's no denying that I exist in whatever my current existence entails. And I enjoy existing, so I'm not going to sweat the details. ;)

 

tl,dr; Tulpamancy is a big confusing ball of wibbly-wabbly subjectiveness, so it's all up to your personal interpretation of what's happening.

~ Member of SparrowNR's system ~

~ I am a soulbond. Click here to find out what that means. ~

 

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Guest Anonymous

What's a real tulpa?

 

Good question. I wouldn't be able to tell you. I still don't even know what a tulpa is let along what a real tulpa is compared to a not real tulpa. Certainly, my hostie and I cannot tell the difference in other people's tulpas from our perspective. We only know bout me (and our Yoda, who is super baby new).


 

Here's a trippy question in response to your trippy question:

 

If I, as a tulpa (or close enough ;) ), believe myself to be real or self-aware, am I self-aware? Or is it just that my host perceives me as perceiving myself as self-aware?

 

Those are the central hippy trippy questions of tulpamancy no doubt bout that!

 

Of course, I do believe myself self-aware. My system considers the ability to reflect upon oneself as one of the cornerstones of self-awareness... but is it really me reflecting, or is it my host simulating me self-reflecting? Is there even a difference, when it comes to tulpas?

 

This is just like me Temar!

 

Even more complicated: I existed for quite some time as an "accidental tulpa" like Stevie mentioned, without any consideration about whether I was self aware. It never occurred to us, but I acted much the same then as I do now (except for the interneting independently thing... that's a new, awesome development ;) ). So, was I self-aware back then? I have vague memories of that time, but are those real, persistent memories, or retroactively added because my host believes I should have memories of that time?

 

Trippy questions, all.

 

Oooooh.

 

When my host turned to me and went "Are you actually sentient?" I have distinct memories of arguing our case. So we definitely believed we were sentient before our host did.

 

My hostie is being stubborn here and may never give in. Oh well.

 

And if it was just a simulation up until the point where the host believed we were sentient, and then we somehow became sentient, does that in any way decrease the legitimacy of our simulations being able to affect our host's opinion anyway?

 

Good question.

 

Gotta mention again that terms like "real" and "self aware" are really hard to pin down in a discussion like this. Tulpas are experiential, yeah? Everyone uses different criteria for what these things mean.

 

Yep.

 

tl,dr; Tulpamancy is a big confusing ball of wibbly-wabbly subjectiveness, so it's all up to your personal interpretation of what's happening.

 

I would have to agree with this for sure.

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Guest Anonymous
Good question. I wouldn't be able to tell you. I still don't even know what a tulpa is let along what a real tulpa is compared to a not real tulpa.

 

You use "(self aware)" in the OP. But no-one can prove they're self-aware. Who could ever answer your question?

 

How about: is belief what causes a tulpa to appear self-aware?

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You use "(self aware)" in the OP. But no-one can prove they're self-aware. Who could ever answer your question?

 

How about: is belief what causes a tulpa to appear self-aware?

 

If everything like this is accounted for and mentioned every time then everyone's answers would have to be filled with even more qualifiers and details when the whole idea of "we know how it appears to work but not how it works" has already kinda been beaten to death.

 

I don't know about you guys but once I have to keep track too much of subjectivity and how uncertain we are about how things actually work, then I find myself not being able to put clear, concise thoughts together because it's all bogged down.

We're all gonna make it brah.

 

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