Visualization vs dream vision

[garland]

Ok after the douzens of descriptions i have read on guides, i though i knew what really meant VIVID visualization (or very good visualization skills) but apparently i don't, according to one person i talked, sure such person could be wrong, but i just want to have you guys opinion's here just to be sure because i get confused easely and usually i have trouble understanding similar things.

 

First of all, the terms i usually use are like this, by "dream vision" i refer to the kind of vision i have in dreams, that it's EXACTLY the same quality as real life vision with my eyes only that it's entirely mind generated.

 

All this time from what i understand, by visualization people only mean seeing images the SAME way that when, with open eyes we try to remmeber how a object is like. But what puzzled me all this time is that how is it possible that people are actually able to explore wonderlands in such hazzy and unstable vision. Sure i know that everyone will just say i have to practise more but still, i am not actually even imagining how the heck is like having very vivid visualization, if it's NOT actually hallucinating them with closed eyes like if we were dreaming...

 

The way most persons talk about image streaming or very vivid daydreams or describing such great details about wonderland adventures, is that it's almost like they actually dreaming or HALLUCINATING the images exactly as if they were having "dream vision".

 

Then that's when i finally realized, for example in light trance, quite often, despite having terrible visualization skills, sudden i am able to start hallucinating with closed eyes anything i visualize (actually sometimes even with OPEN eyes, but it's obviously quite rare, and it's exactly like after-images), almost like a mental drawing board, but with actual "dream vision", it's NOT like just remembering pictures while awake, i literally SEE what i am visualizing. I noticed it's the same kind of vision i have in hypnagogic imagery but this one seems a lot more controlled and more "simple" since it's mostly about geometric shapes and i am able to do some "doodling" and sometimes manipulate static pictures.

 

So once and for all by vivid visualization, day dreams or image streaming, people here really mean seeing EVEYTHING the same way they do when they try to remember images from memory while awake, INSTEAD of being like "dream vision" ?

 

Also what image streaming means exactly, it's pure mind's eye visions (like remembering the pictures of objects with open eyes) or it's something similar to hypnagogic imagery but more controlled?

[Linkzelda]

First of all' date=' the terms i usually use are like this, by "dream vision" i refer to the kind of vision i have in dreams, that it's EXACTLY the same quality as real life vision with my eyes only that it's entirely mind generated.[/quote']

 

Well, the virtual experiential reality could be just as real, or much more vivid and robust compared to waking life perception, but you have to understand that this is a circumstantial thing. It’s not all the time that you’re having dreams where you’re like “Holy Guacamole, existential crisis in 3…2….1”

 

Compared to waking life, and your physiological integrity of your eyes, waking life is fairly easy to assume to be more consistent than your dreams; that’s something you learn through experience obviously, and have predispositions to assure you that is the case. With dreams, people eventually find their ways to absolve from predisposed thoughts of how one should visualize, move, sense, etc. They’re truly become aware that they’re in their own subjective experience within their cognition. And when they’re outside of that, they’re bound by certain things (e.g. objective reality existing with or without their subjective experience)

 

All this time from what i understand' date=' by visualization people only mean seeing images the SAME way that when, with open eyes we try to remmeber how a object is like. But what puzzled me all this time is that how is it possible that people are actually able to explore wonderlands in such hazzy and unstable vision. Sure i know that everyone will just say i have to practise more but still, i am not actually even imagining how the heck is like having very vivid visualization, if it's NOT actually hallucinating them with closed eyes like if we were dreaming...[/quote']

 

You’re actually quite proficient in perseverance, despite varying beliefs, because once you find something that works for you, your momentary thinking evolves to where you can commit 100% all the way. But when you find something tedious and completely out of term, you start questioning the logic behind it all, and you're just trying to unravel a probable truth from others instead of relying on what one person judged you for. That type of visualization you mentioned with the “same” way and all isn’t an inherent property of visualization you MUST abide to; it’s circumstantial; you could even say that could be the ideal visualization, but it isn’t the end-all be-all to validate whether or not you’re competent in visualization in general. If you can consistently be aware of those hazy and blurry thoughts, it’s a lot better than just seeing the blackness of your eyes.

 

It’s a dispositional kind of thing, i.e., a mentality you foster for yourself, and relying on your impulses instead of your thoughts betraying you because you already mapped out the logic behind those ad hoc claims and presumptions of others. Which refers to me mentioning before that you’re really an epitomized version of Gohan (when you tried to make a tulpa related to him); you have potential and the willpower to throw everything else away for getting the objective done, but you just have to be shifted into a consistent workflow and mindset that makes that happen.

The way most persons talk about image streaming or very vivid daydreams or describing such great details about wonderland adventures' date=' is that it's almost like they actually dreaming or HALLUCINATING the images exactly as if they were having "dream vision".[/quote']

 

Well, it would be a hallucination (and it really is by definition), and even in experiences where I went for long sessions with image streaming, I’m not claiming to have 100% consistency in how vivid the virtual experiential reality is. All I care about is just progressively improving my consistency to be aware of those images, movements, etc. in my mind. So, if I have a circumstance where I’m suddenly having virtual experiential realities in my head that are more vivid than waking life, I’m okay with it; if I have a moment in lapse of concentration, and end up with blurry thoughts, I’m okay with it. The idea, in my opinion, is knowing that you can make things more vivid despite of whatever level you are. So if I end up doing 3 hours of having blurry vision, and then suddenly have 1 hour of “Holy Guacamole” vision, that’s alright.

 

You’ll eventually see that blurry to vivid thing takes practice, and I know you hate seeing that phrase stated to you, but when you truck through that shittiness in vision, somewhere in your mental repository, you may have improved on how fast you break through the iteration loop, i.e., the workflow to get to the vivid imagery. Maybe that’s why people say practice helps a lot; the iteration loop you may have to go through to reach that result becomes faster; it takes dogged perseverance to get there.

 

At least that’s the mindset I try to prime myself with when going for long sessions of active forcing, or image streaming that’s associated for the end goal of fixating on my tulpas in some way (which leaves room for subjectivity). Don’t worry too much on the semantics, and just see what the means are to achieve the end goal. And sometimes having vivid imagery isn’t really the end goal, but rather having that within your momentary and present awareness throughout how long you want to visualize something; this is a matter of disposition.

 

Then that's when i finally realized' date=' for example in light trance, quite often, despite having terrible visualization skills, sudden i am able to start hallucinating with closed eyes anything i visualize (actually sometimes even with OPEN eyes, but it's obviously quite rare, and it's exactly like after-images), almost like a mental drawing board, but with actual "dream vision", it's NOT like just remembering pictures while awake, i literally SEE what i am visualizing. I noticed it's the same kind of vision i have in hypnagogic imagery but this one seems a lot more controlled and more "simple" since it's mostly about geometric shapes and i am able to do some "doodling" and sometimes manipulate static pictures.[/quote']

 

That’s because with the inward focus, you filter out the tendency to criticize everything, and can only be fixated on what your mind can create for you in your head. When you just let it happen unequivocally, the “getting in the zone” is much easier than you think it is after experiencing through it all. If you want analogues on what I mean to be “in the zone,” there’s a few that I can point out later on with explanations if you want.

 

So once and for all by vivid visualization' date=' day dreams or image streaming, people here really mean seeing EVEYTHING the same way they do when they try to remember images from memory while awake, INSTEAD of being like "dream vision" ?[/quote']

 

Everyone’s subjective experience is unique in some way; we may be able to see a red apple just the same, but there’s probably going to be nuances, albeit subtle and miniscule to even care about. Now, if you want to find validation on whether or not qualia/subjective experience is true, then that’s for empirical inquiry, I guess?

 

Also what image streaming means exactly, it's pure mind's eye visions (like remembering the pictures of objects with open eyes) or it's something similar to hypnagogic imagery but more controlled?

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It’s not a clearly defined term, and maybe because it’s circumstantial (e.g. people image streaming with open-eyed visualization and people doing it with closed visualization). You’ll get opinions that open-eye visualization might be better because you’re forcing yourself to associate mental imagery in your head to what you’re seeing with your eyes open. Some say mind’s eye is better because you gradually absolve awareness of what you see with your eyes opened to tap into awareness of what your mind can create. Whatever opinion you attach yourself to, just understand that it’s really up to you to decide what’s essential for the circumstance and the moment. The words shouldn’t constrain your ability to be in the moment, and using what you can in your mental repository to achieve a certain goal; because like how you got into a light trance, things were in your awareness despite their varying level of vividness and clarity.

 

Again, people want to make the iteration loop to achieve a certain end much faster, and practice clearly helps with that, along with other factors.

 

 

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As for your query on image streaming being something you have to consciously control, or not; in a nutshell, your mind is already formulating things in your head, and you control your awareness to that; it's a mutual thing where you're harmonizing that awareness with the receptivity for your mind to offer those varied and subjective experiences for you. Takes two to tango, and I mean that very metaphorically.