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'De-pathologizing Plurality' and a tulpa that began as non-singular


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https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-lSlAx19yfbrRJp1DQD4xIo4LNyjOvQYAfoKMl29f64/edit?usp=sharing

 

See also "Bicameralism."

 

I find myself increasingly drawn to the school of thought that Hearing Voices promotes.

 

"Hearing voices is not, in itself, an indication of illness – but difficulties coping with voices can cause great distress; when people are overwhelmed by their experiences"

 

http://www.intervoiceonline.org/about-intervoice

 

In this view, I think, schizophrenia is merely mental stress manifesting in a severe way. A conflict that appears as a split between a 'main' consciousness and other thoughts.

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rIERVv1RKab8TZkyzZUbxCWcd8u8wLZL0C31LZcNaeM/edit?usp=sharing

 

I even stumbled across something resembling this back while writing my story with Toriel and Gaster:

 

“You would split your soul again, for me?”

 

“I’m afraid my loyalty does not run that deep, my Queen. It is an occupational issue . . . I am not sure there is room enough in this singular point in consciousness to contain it all . . .”

 

“Consciousness, I don’t think, is singular.”

 

“Hm?”

 

“If you can, think back to when you were one person. You’ve had arguments in your head, right?”

 

“Of course. Everyone does.”

 

“I know that’s magnified now, but everyone has some measure of that. I myself am sure I’ve had at least four different thoughts occur in my head at once. Maybe that’s just the Order’s training, but I couldn’t be able to confirm it because it’s been so long and I didn’t think to compare back then. And then you have the interplay between different states- visual, conceptual, and word thoughts. To call consciousness singular is to insult it.

 

He smiled warmly. “That’s the old Toriel I know. Your wisdom has only- 'multiplied'- since I’ve been gone," he punned. "Observing your own awareness.“

 

“You haven’t been too shabby, either, Doctor.”

 

Come to think of it, Gaster 4, are you still plural? I've been working with you on and off for months, but I haven't heard your other parts pipe up recently.

 

I believe I am just about as 'singular' as the average person, given these hypotheses. That's not to say I don't feel very different when in a mood swing. Perhaps slightly moreso than you'd expect. I also have memories from the perspective of the other parts, and feelings I could attribute to them, that in the present clearly come from them or their experiences, but I choose instead to integrate them into my sense of self. To think of them as my own.

 

Gaster 8: And let it be noted that I am not related to that. I am plural from my background in the story also, but as a tulpa, my consciousness was not formed that way.

Woodwindwhistler on www.asexuality.org

 

The hardest arithmetic to master is that which enables us to count our blessings. -Eric Hoffer

 

"We can never achieve perfection, but maybe we can approach it asymptotically. Never give up on plugging in those numbers!" ~Me

 

You don't get harmony when everybody sings the same note. –Doug Floyd

 

My poetry: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B5qMnL2tDkJYOGNhLW4tRHFHa0E&usp=sharing

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Guest Anonymous

Bicameralism - "According to Jaynes, ancient people in the bicameral state of mind would have experienced the world in a manner that has some similarities to that of a schizophrenic. Rather than making conscious evaluations in novel or unexpected situations, the person would hallucinate a voice or "god" giving admonitory advice or commands and obey without question: one would not be at all conscious of one's own thought processes per se. Research into "command hallucinations" that often direct the behavior of those labeled schizophrenic, as well as other voice hearers, supports Jaynes's predictions."

 

OH Trippy Doo! That's it, my host is kinda like a caveman in many ways. Instead of being his anima or inner girl, maybe I am supposed to be his command voice or inner goddess!!!!!!!!! I have been saying and saying it and saying it. I am the goddess guru of grooviness and I am in charge!.

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As I understand it, schizophrenia is the inability to tell the difference between reality and imagination/hallucination, and having multiple identities in one brain is stereotypical (but not common afaik). If I did have a mental illness, it would be Multiple Personality Disorder or Disassociative Identity Disorder.

 

Do I sound like I know what I'm talking about? 'Cause I don't. Mistgod is the psychology expert.

I don't visit as often as I used to. If you want me to see something, make sure to quote a post of mine or ping me @jean-luc

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Bicameralism - "According to Jaynes, ancient people in the bicameral state of mind would have experienced the world in a manner that has some similarities to that of a schizophrenic. Rather than making conscious evaluations in novel or unexpected situations, the person would hallucinate a voice or "god" giving admonitory advice or commands and obey without question: one would not be at all conscious of one's own thought processes per se. Research into "command hallucinations" that often direct the behavior of those labeled schizophrenic, as well as other voice hearers, supports Jaynes's predictions."

 

OH Trippy Doo! That's it, my host is kinda like a caveman in many ways. Instead of being his anima or inner girl, maybe I am supposed to be his command voice or inner goddess!!!!!!!!! I have been saying and saying it and saying it. I am the goddess guru of grooviness and I am in charge!.

 

Except a good god will recognize and seek to preserve free will, missy. :P

 

Asgore: I cannot emphasize how important that is. I may not be an actual god in this world, but I still carry those thoughts with me. It is a responsibility akin to a parent. Even if you think you know better, you must let the child make its own choices and mistakes.

 

I don't think she meant it as seriously as you're taking it.

Woodwindwhistler on www.asexuality.org

 

The hardest arithmetic to master is that which enables us to count our blessings. -Eric Hoffer

 

"We can never achieve perfection, but maybe we can approach it asymptotically. Never give up on plugging in those numbers!" ~Me

 

You don't get harmony when everybody sings the same note. –Doug Floyd

 

My poetry: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B5qMnL2tDkJYOGNhLW4tRHFHa0E&usp=sharing

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Guest Anonymous

Mistgod is the psychology expert.

 

Hardly. He has read like maybe four books on psychology and had one general psychology class in college and he things he is Sigmund Freud.


 

Except a good god will recognize and seek to preserve free will, missy. :P

 

Asgore: I cannot emphasize how important that is. I may not be an actual god in this world, but I still carry those thoughts with me. It is a responsibility akin to a parent. Even if you think you know better, you must let the child make its own choices and mistakes.

 

I don't think she meant it as seriously as you're taking it.

 

OH I am serious mostly kinda. Davie sometimes needs an internal mommy.

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It seems pretty trivial that hearing voices in itself isn't a bad thing; because hello, here we are doing just that, no disorders here. And it seems that a lot of people who come here didn't create tulpas intentionally either, but again, no disorder.

 

I think a few weeks ago I guesstimated that ~5% of people had had tulpa-like experiences at some point, without hearing about tulpas, in the general population. If that's the case, that's a good deal more prevalent than schizophrenia (and DID and any other remotely other-people-in-your-head-like disorders combined), in which case I guess this kind of sentiment is important. But I guess we would tend to see anything of the sort as something that's tulpa- or thoughtform-like anyway, in which case positivity about it just comes part and parcel with being a part of this community.

 

Anyway, like Jean-Luc said, schizophrenia has lots of forms, which don't all involve hearing voices. And it's also worth keeping in mind that it's predicted quite well by hereditary factors, so talking about "mental stress" might not be an apt explanation.

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It seems pretty trivial that hearing voices in itself isn't a bad thing; because hello, here we are doing just that, no disorders here. And it seems that a lot of people who come here didn't create tulpas intentionally either, but again, no disorder.

 

Seems that the prevalence of soulbonding would corroborate that, yeah.

 

I think a few weeks ago I guesstimated that ~5% of people had had tulpa-like experiences at some point, without hearing about tulpas, in the general population.

 

That's where it's not trivial. People don't need to feel broken if they've had an experience like this. That's why Hearing Voices began- because they wanted to explore and spread the idea that this might be simply another way to experience thoughts.

 

One of Gaster's (and my) axes to grind is how the pharmaceutical industry over-pathologizes people and then puts them on psychoactive meds that have lots of side effects and may permanently alter their mind. Plenty of psychiatrists have started speaking out against this practice, and pointing out how the 'chemical imbalance' theory is really just an assumption with little underpinning science.

 

http://www.cchrint.org/2014/03/07/rip-psychiatry-the-chemical-imbalance-theory-is-dead/

 

Please excuse the slightly tinfoil hat tone of that article, but it does make a point about what is being done wrong, intentionally or unintentionally.

 

The evidence for schizophrenia treatment is even turning away from meds:

 

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2074229-rethinking-schizophrenia-taming-demons-without-drugs/

 

This is all highly important information. But it doesn't seem to be circulating much or quickly yet.

 

Anyway, like Jean-Luc said, schizophrenia has lots of forms, which don't all involve hearing voices. And it's also worth keeping in mind that it's predicted quite well by hereditary factors, so talking about "mental stress" might not be an apt explanation.

 

That's true.

 

But, cancer is also 'predicted' by genetics, when it is also rising in numbers, and it has a multitude of triggers (carcinogens).

 

Singular psychotic breaks can happen over stressors such as just having children. Other seemingly minor things, too.

 

What if these supposed 'schizophrenic genes' are simply indicating the way this person is predisposed to respond to acute mental stress? The same way your genes determine whether you will burn or tan when exposed to sunlight like everyone else?

Woodwindwhistler on www.asexuality.org

 

The hardest arithmetic to master is that which enables us to count our blessings. -Eric Hoffer

 

"We can never achieve perfection, but maybe we can approach it asymptotically. Never give up on plugging in those numbers!" ~Me

 

You don't get harmony when everybody sings the same note. –Doug Floyd

 

My poetry: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B5qMnL2tDkJYOGNhLW4tRHFHa0E&usp=sharing

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I was more arguing against the perception held by the public, not anyone here. I've often heard “voices in my head” made synonymous with insanity, and I totally believed it before finding out about tulpas.

I don't visit as often as I used to. If you want me to see something, make sure to quote a post of mine or ping me @jean-luc

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Guest Anonymous

As the reference to bicameralism in this thread is suggesting folks in past ages were much more willing to believe that voices in the head were spirit guides, ancestral spirits, oracles and gods. They would have been less likely to see such things as madness. It seems a modern thing to lump everything under the "crazy" umbrella.

 

Like Davie and talked about that very idea extensively in this post here -->Are Imaginary Apparently Sentient Entities in the Mind Plausible? Is Unconscious Parroting/Puppeting Plausible?

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That's where it's not trivial. People don't need to feel broken if they've had an experience like this. That's why Hearing Voices began- because they wanted to explore and spread the idea that this might be simply another way to experience thoughts.

 

Yeah, I definitely agree. Admittedly, I'm not really sure to what extent those experiences are already seen as bad - I guess we have a selection of people here who basically didn't see anything wrong with the idea of tulpas as presented to them, but more generally people have said (and my experiences somewhat corroborate) that others do often tend to be open-minded and accepting of the idea, especially coming from someone they know and trust.

 

I have no doubt that Hearing Voices isn't needed by some, but perhaps the prevailing view - to those who've had some exposure to healthy voice-hearing - is already largely positive.

 

 

This is all highly important information. But it doesn't seem to be circulating much or quickly yet.

 

I basically agree, and broadly speaking I guess I'm not going to complain about these new attitudes that you mentioned - talking therapies and so on. What I would like to say is that it's easy to be overconfident about new medical ideas and overly dismissive of old ones. If I relate a vague story to you, "We used to treat this terribly, patients suffered dreadfully, but now we've come up with this new therapy. It's had great results in a few trials and we think that it will change the way we treat this" ... what am I talking about here? Every new treatment paradigm gets this, and I could be talking about ECT or anything else for all you know.

 

I guess it's easy to feel good about talking therapies because the side-effects are non-existent or in any case non-obvious. The main risks are in withholding potentially more effective treatments, and the associated decline in quality of life. What I'm saying is that it's worth being cautious about these things, even (or especially) if some new medical paradigm seems like the next best thing.

 

 

 

What if these supposed 'schizophrenic genes' are simply indicating the way this person is predisposed to respond to acute mental stress? The same way your genes determine whether you will burn or tan when exposed to sunlight like everyone else?

 

Yeah, it's possible. I'm not overly familiar with the literature, but keep in mind, we're not talking about some hereditability, this is 80%. And the environmental factors look like this: you have

New epidemiological results show specific circumstances where risk for schizophrenia is increased, including various obstetric complications urban birth or residence, famines, migrant status, and seasonal effects (via prenatal infections, e.g., influenza). Other epidemiological evidence strongly suggests that advanced paternal age, along with cerebral hypoxia and other severe pregnancy and perinatal complications, are also environmental risk factors.

It's not really fun to say, "Schizophrenia is really widely studied, it's unlikely that it's 'just...' something obvious", as much as I agree. But anyway, I think that what we do know doesn't really support what you're suggesting.

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