Tulpa dreams and deviations

[hagalaz9]

This might belong in the metaphysical section, but I'm going to try my best to keep this post on the psychological level.

 

It might sound exaggerated, but recently I've been spending almost every waking moment with my tulpa. She has become so entrenched in my daily routines, she's developed a few of her own. One of the most notable things as far as "deviations", if they could be called that (I'll explain) is her choice of hairstyle and clothing. She'll often change through different looks and ask my opinion on them each day. She also has different clothes for different times (cold weather, sleeping, in public). What's interesting is her concern of my opinion. From what I understand about deviations, these tend to happen unexpectedly for the host, and the host is better for it to accept these changes. In a sense it seems she's already chosen how she wants to look, but is also concerned about her perceived appearance. Any thoughts?

 

What's even more interesting as far as routines is our sleep patterns. We usually sleep at the same time, though I've woken up before her and she's been known to wake me as well. However, it's a little difficult to explain, but lately it seems she has been "entering" my dreams with me. Almost every one. When we wake up, often we'll discuss them in detail. It doesn't necessarily surprise me as we seemed to have found eachother while I was in a lucid dream, but the frequency is notable. I suppose psychologically this could make sense, but at the same time, I find it worthy of noting. Any similar experiences out there?

[Guest Anonymous]

About these "deviations", it seems to me like it would be a pretty normal thing to do, afterall it would be completely normal for your girlfriend or whatever to ask "Do you like this dress?"

 

Regarding the dreams it's actually quite interesting, since the people I talked to all found it difficult to encounter their tulpa in a dream (but maybe that's just a coincidence).

I suppose it's mostly just a question of exercise and the tulpa actually "being inside the dream" when you look for her (if this makes sense to you).

Did you try this on purpose?

[Quilten]

It's not really surprising that you dream with your tulpa, it's not uncommon. I occasionally have dreams where my tulpae happen to be awake and come into my dreams to spend time with me in a more mutually realistic plane.

 

Concerning the deviations, though, I would suggest that you talk to your tulpa before anything else, to find out if or why their unhappy with their perceived appearance.

 

Also a side note, I hope you are not literally spending every waking moment with your tulpa because that can be unhealthy. However, as long as you are having plenty of interaction with others, sure, spend as much time as you can together.

[Linkzelda]

Hey hagalaz9,

 

Maybe when you were looking around on information related to tulpa, she was probably interested in things like deviation. I’m presuming that your interaction with her before you found this site, she probably didn’t give much thought in changing up her image a bit. I think it’s pretty normal for her to want to change accordingly (especially with external stimuli with weather, sleeping, and public interactions), and that’s pretty good that your tulpa is wanting to be as lively as possible.

 

As for the dreaming aspect, I can empathize for you there. When I first met Eva in a non-lucid dream, I noticed certain dream characters that were elements of her. There were so many changes in these dream characters that I ended up wondering that at the core, when a thought-form wants someone to acknowledge their existence, they would do anything for that. Especially with the analogy dreamy mentioned of a girlfriend asking “do you like this dress? "

 

As for actually being able to meet your tulpa in a dream, I guess what may reduce the chances of them being just a conjured up dream character imitating to be your tulpa and more of them actually being her is how much the tulpa and/or host is proficient in the dreaming state. I stopped using lucid dreaming to create sentient and independent dream characters (at least for the time being) because it took a lot of time building awareness and could’ve ended up in escapism on my end. Finding out about tulpa, I could interact with Eva and Ada without worrying about devoting most of my time recalling dreams and instead focus on actually living with them and other people in my life for once.

 

Presuming you asked her if it was actually her in your dreams, it seems pragmatic that a tulpa would want to transcend into the dreaming state for heart-to-heart conversation. Especially if you can become lucid, the probability of you experiencing higher feelings of appreciation and love for her is there. She may be able to tell you that you’re dreaming, and I’ve seen countless anecdotes on dreaming forums like Dream Views where some users meet dream characters that seem to be just as sentient and aware as the host can be. I’ve had a lot of those experiences myself, and comparing that to the tulpa phenomenon, it’s hard to really see any major difference.

 

For me, waking state or dreaming state, it’s all the same, if I apply the same logic in creating a sentient and independent being in waking life, I can do the same for dreaming life. But dreaming life in a moment-by-moment experience can be limited due to non-REM and REM periods, which is why I gravitate more on reality than my dreams. I just use dreams as a supplement, maybe she’s wanting to do the same, and is hinting to you that you can do so as well.

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She may be able to tell you that you’re dreaming, and I’ve seen countless anecdotes on dreaming forums like Dream Views where some users meet dream characters that seem to be just as sentient and aware as the host can be. I’ve had a lot of those experiences myself, and comparing that to the tulpa phenomenon, it’s hard to really see any major difference.

 

I would argue that there's no appreciable difference.

 

Dreaming (and similar chemically-induced states) provides a direct, involuntary and unadulterated experience of the subconscious and everything within. It's a state where overruling consciousness is suppressed enough to expose underlying processes which are functioning imperceptibly while awake.

 

Concerning tulpas, I personally consider a thoughtform real only if it was born through dreams or similar states, or can consistently manifest in them. In my current attempt at conjuring a new tulpa, I've once again looked to the aid of dreams for support and inspiration. That's why I covet the lyrical blurb I appended to my signature.

 

Unfortunately, I haven't had any lucid dreams of late, since extreme stress and time limitations prevent them, but I will more often than not wake up remembering my tupas' presences in some form or another. They have what I call a 'signature,' and generally their dream involvement has a noticeable affect. For example, they're adept at derailing anxiety-provoking dream situations, and presenting me with philosophical and spiritual distractions to help overcome personal strife.

 

Dreams also give your thoughtforms automatic sentience. It's difficult to deny their realness when you couldn't have predicted, or directly influenced, what was presented or said to you in a dream. I know I can't readily deny the legitimacy of what's presented to me in my somnolent forays.

 

The only real words of caution I have are really only parapsychologically (but less metaphysically) appropriate, so I'll refrain from mention here. I plan to share more about that at a much later date, if I feel so bold.

 

Regarding a tulpa's seeking approval, my first suspicion is that there is some amount of self-doubt from the you--the host--which is translated as the thoughtform's apparent cosmetic insecurity. The behaviour is typically very effeminate, but could reflect your own discontent, or your belief in what your tulpa is or is not. That's the only insight that immediately occurs to me.

 

The frequency with which you contact your tulpa may directly relate to the perceived insecurity, too. I echo Quilten's sentiments that it's potentially harmful to spend a lot of time with your thoughtform. Similarly, it's just as destructive to escape into sleeping, playing games, reading, watching TV, making art, writing stories, exercising -- anything which becomes an obsessive coping strategy. Experiences or activities that give you pleasurable feedback can be abused. Actually, this was an issue broached years ago by my first tulpa, and our resulting dynamic had a positive effect on how I approach all of my relationships.

[Linkzelda]

 

I would argue that there's no appreciable difference....

 

Concerning tulpas, I personally consider a thoughtform real only if it was born through dreams or similar states, or can consistently manifest in them. In my current attempt at conjuring a new tulpa, I've once again looked to the aid of dreams for support and inspiration. That's why I covet the lyrical blurb I appended to my signature.

 

It's very interesting seeing another member here that can see dreams as a supplement instead of only gravitating to making a tulpa in the waking state.

 

 

Dreams also give your thoughtforms automatic sentience. It's difficult to deny their realness when you couldn't have predicted, or directly influenced, what was presented or said to you in a dream. I know I can't readily deny the legitimacy of what's presented to me in my somnolent forays.

 

I always considered thought-forms having automatic sentience in dreams as well, but when I stated that in a few threads, it seemed some disagreed that dream characters and such would have the potential of being a "tulpa" in the patched-up definition this community presents.

 

The only real words of caution I have are really only parapsychologically (but less metaphysically) appropriate, so I'll refrain from mention here. I plan to share more about that at a much later date, if I feel so bold.

 

I will definitely look forward to that.

 

Regarding a tulpa's seeking approval, my first suspicion is that there is some amount of self-doubt from the you--the host--which is translated as the thoughtform's apparent cosmetic insecurity. The behaviour is typically very effeminate, but could reflect your own discontent, or your belief in what your tulpa is or is not. That's the only insight that immediately occurs to me.

 

Presuming this is in response to me,

 

Yeah, you're right, it probably is one of many insecurities and self-doubts I do have. I guess when I tried to see it as me letting the thought-forms I interact with be whoever they want to be, I'm probably just afraid with creating some identity issue.

 

With Eva as a thought-form in the dreams before finding out about tulpa, I realized she was an embodiment of everything I would like to be--which quickly ended up being self-damaging and caused me to escape from that desire.

 

When I saw your thread in relation to tulpa potentially having similar qualities and appearances of people in waking life, or being a totality of their traits, it inspired me to be more reflective of my situation and this forum's situation on identities in general.

 

But when I state about the tulpa seeking approval, I guess I'm trying to be pragmatic with how humans in general would be gregarious with species like them and doing whatever it is necessary for interaction and acknowledgement. Most likely the fallacy of unintelligible equivocation on my end.

 

 

Experiences or activities that give you pleasurable feedback can be abused. Actually, this was an issue broached years ago by my first tulpa, and our resulting dynamic had a positive effect on how I approach all of my relationships.

 

Unfortunately, I haven't had any lucid dreams of late, since extreme stress and time limitations prevent them, but I will more often than not wake up remembering my tupas' presences in some form or another. They have what I call a 'signature,' and generally their dream involvement has a noticeable affect. For example, they're adept at derailing anxiety-provoking dream situations, and presenting me with philosophical and spiritual distractions to help overcome personal strife.

 

About the coping strategy, for the dynamic that you achieved with your first tulpa, if possible, could you PM me on how you approach it?

 

Because the way I view this as concise as I can put it:

 

The more one becomes aware of the thought-forms they interact with and the repressed traits and such with the totality of self, the more one presumably realizes how these activities we do in life are to mask the existential depression we may harbor. Compared to psychological depression and other emotions that are temporary, the existential depression seems to never run away. And with some articles here where scientist are aiming to find the reservoir of meta-consciousness and meta-cognition based on lucid dreaming, sometimes I wonder if "knowing about knowing" (i.e. aware of the coping strategy) may have been the catalyst to the dynamic similar to what you and your first tulpa experienced.

 

Which makes me wonder that when this community and its members have their own individual virtue ethics and other forms of normative ethics, they're just restricting themselves because of this moral character they're trying to create and patting themselves on the back and thinking they're being considerate of their tulpas. And I'm in the same position as you with lucid dreaming, things are just stressful and hectic, but recently I've been getting lucid dreams without wanting to induce lucidity in the first place.

 

Sometimes I wonder when a person gets exposed to the lucid dreaming phenomenon, being in a dreaming state where one can do anything fathomable would lead the dreamer to the conclusion of lucid dreaming being a sandbox reality. Or a state where one may subscribe to moral anti-realism (to some extent), because looking at how members here act on others treating tulpas a certain way based on anecdotes and inductive reasoning, I often hold back on what I really want to say.

 

Probably because the type of audience here doesn't seem to prefer individuals that would state that adding moral and ethical parameters on tulpa is just an insecurity or self-doubt a person imposes onto a tulpa in hopes of reducing the chances of them self-actualizing in a negative manner.

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Sorry about delayed responses. I wanted to make time to think, rather than just throw out a half-baked retort. Never enough time ever.

 

It's very interesting seeing another member here that can see dreams as a supplement instead of only gravitating to making a tulpa in the waking state.

 

Yes! I think the merits of dreaming in 'tulpa forging' are underrated. I'm still not sure why that is, since it seems like such an obvious route of exploration and manifestation.

 

I always considered thought-forms having automatic sentience in dreams as well, but when I stated that in a few threads, it seemed some disagreed that dream characters and such would have the potential of being a "tulpa" in the patched-up definition this community presents.

 

Absolutely. I don't think it's necessarily helpful to completely segregate dreams from active imagination. I see the latter as a supplement to the former. Combining dreams with visualization and other meditation seems like a very powerful technique.

 

That said, I understand many people have grave difficulty recalling their dreams, and the additional time and effort needed to keep a detailed dream journal is probably a major deterrent.

 

Presuming this is in response to me,

 

Yeah, you're right, it probably is one of many insecurities and self-doubts I do have. I guess when I tried to see it as me letting the thought-forms I interact with be whoever they want to be, I'm probably just afraid with creating some identity issue.

 

Actually, it was aimed at hagalaz, but I intentionally left it open because I thought others might relate as well. Glad I did.

 

With Eva as a thought-form in the dreams before finding out about tulpa, I realized she was an embodiment of everything I would like to be--which quickly ended up being self-damaging and caused me to escape from that desire.

 

I could see how that sort of inner dynamic could lead to addictive escapism, conflict in self image, and even 'covert narcissism' if the thoughtform represents an ideal and unrealistic desire.

 

But what of those tulpas who consist of very desirable traits that are realistic? Could they not in fact bolster self acceptance or/and improvement by exposing positive adaptive traits?

 

When I saw your thread in relation to tulpa potentially having similar qualities and appearances of people in waking life, or being a totality of their traits, it inspired me to be more reflective of my situation and this forum's situation on identities in general.

 

Seriously glad that thread was of some service. I could barely articulate my thoughts!

 

I guess I'm trying to be pragmatic with how humans in general would be gregarious with species like them and doing whatever it is necessary for interaction and acknowledgement. Most likely the fallacy of unintelligible equivocation on my end.

 

My previous tulpa — the unsettling mess that he was — became notorious for being rather the attention whore with me and my friends. The details of this are so strange that I'd have to post about them in the parapsychological section.

 

Suffice it to say that his ostentatious displays were about validation, but his insecurity surrounded actualization rather than appearance. He was upset when his existence was questioned, or when my friends approached him as a personal therapist instead of listening to what he wanted to share.

 

I want to clarify that the alleged communication between the tulpa and my friends wasn't the result of channeling or possession; his behaviour was reportedly consistent with several people independent of my direct involvement. To be honest, the whole experience scared me shitless — he was like a legitimate ghost.

 

About the coping strategy, for the dynamic that you achieved with your first tulpa, if possible, could you PM me on how you approach it?

 

As soon as I get extra time, I will definitely throw some private correspondence your way.

 

The more one becomes aware of the thought-forms they interact with and the repressed traits and such with the totality of self, the more one presumably realizes how these activities we do in life are to mask the existential depression we may harbor.

 

So, you're saying that we may choose to cling to our thoughtforms when they provide us pleasure because we also experience existential depression as a side effect of their creation?

 

The conversations I had with my previous tulpa often dealt with my recurrent existential crises, but his emergence was not the cause of my longstanding woes — he was part of my attempt to ameliorate them.

 

Fantastic article, by the way. Thank you.

 

Which makes me wonder that when this community and its members have their own individual virtue ethics and other forms of normative ethics, they're just restricting themselves because of this moral character they're trying to create and patting themselves on the back and thinking they're being considerate of their tulpas.

 

I think I've witnessed this. There appears to be a lot of conceptual front-loading and unnecessarily restrictive dos and don'ts, most of which, from my experience, have little to no real bearing on interacting with a thoughtform.

 

But I don't feel like cautioning against intensive focus or even dependence on your tulpa reflects my ethics or etiquette. Simply put, I believe there can be too much of a good thing.

 

And I'm in the same position as you with lucid dreaming, things are just stressful and hectic, but recently I've been getting lucid dreams without wanting to induce lucidity in the first place.

 

That's very fortunate. I managed to coax a brief lucid exploration the other morning when I had enough time to sleep. Usually I'm underslept, which is the real issue.

 

Probably because the type of audience here doesn't seem to prefer individuals that would state that adding moral and ethical parameters on tulpa is just an insecurity or self-doubt a person imposes onto a tulpa in hopes of reducing the chances of them self-actualizing in a negative manner.

 

I think it may be easier for people to relate to their thoughtforms if they apply the morals and values they've become accustomed to. After all, that's most people interact with each other.

 

Self-imposed restrictions of perception and so forth seem to stem from knee-jerk responses, expectations and conditioned behaviours which foster anxiety in the face of the unknown. This has been my experience with anything relating to 'occult' practices and unusual experiences.

[Linkzelda]

I apologize to OP.

 

So, you're saying that we may choose to cling to our thoughtforms when they provide us pleasure because we also experience existential depression as a side effect of their creation?

 

Firstly, thank you for the responses. :)

 

It's really hard for me to put into words. But in short, the frequent existential angst and crises from attempting lucid dreaming eventually made me learn how to overcome it and approach things differently (mostly stoic).

 

If the questioning comes to mind, it's merely for remedial philosophical contemplation instead of being fixated on the depression that nihilistic, antinatalism, fatalist, and other branches of philosophy may subscribe to.

 

I guess it's more of the thought-form having the existential angst and the host learning how to help them deal with it, and thus the host understanding themselves as well.

 

When the host finds how to cope or resolve that conflict, it's where both just pick and choose what they feel is pragmatic for the sake of flourishing and functioning, which means it's all sorts of mixing with philosophies.

 

I guess when the thought-form and host exchange through each others' thought-processes so much, them (tulpa) wanting to be more lively or deviating doesn't necessarily mean their actions are determined solely on our entrenched predispositions and impulses. They just learn how to truly live and know how to balance between dreaming and waking state without absolving themselves from others--just like how hagalaz9 and his tulpa may go through more often (or probably went through already).