In between real and imaginary make believe. (How to never have doubts again)

[Guest Anonymous]

That reminds me of Stevie's avatar! LOL Don't give Melian ideas please!

[Linkzelda]

The fundamental and almost impossible question to answer is this: Is there a point' date=' where the dependently sentient (pseudo-real) tulpa experiences an emergence moment where they become truly and independently self aware? [/quote']

 

Emergence…interesting.

 

So like, you’re questioning if they could step out of that cocoon of “pseudo-real,” and thus make the inference to themselves that they’re self-aware of what’s going on? If so, I would refer back to the amalgamation of experiential cases they went through with the host of putting the right noises (e.g. things to say) in the right context.

 

An easy analogue is this:

 

- Melly communicates with Jean-luc through the podcast thingy, and she’s, or in your case, that veneer of her persona bleeding into your own, answering them in the right context since the opinions of hers is sequential to the question at hand (e.g. her not saying “TUNAS CUT OFF MY TONGUE AND SHOOT IT 37b TIMES” if he were to ask how she’s feeling right now; chances are, she would’ve had a retort of her current condition, even if it may be deemed as pseudo-sentience in her self-reflecting, and formulating a response altogether. In short, you + the veneer of her being bled onto you would have to be a conscious accompaniment to assess the question of her state of being. Even if it’s deemed as unconscious roleplaying, someone’s a conscious accompaniment, otherwise, what’s the point in the mind needing you, her, or anyone else to shoot off noises to place into the right contexts?

 

It's best just to enjoy your tulpa's existence and stop worrying about whether they are real or not. That was sortof the point to this OP really. They are imaginary-real, but most importantly they exist for us and MATTER.

________________________________________

 

It seemed that by you constantly fixating on the impasse stated in the OP was of worry to you. If the OP was to be treated as to not worry, and yet have the syntax of someone being worried, and curious, then I couldn’t have read between the lines there. And even if the testament of who they are is something that gets consoled with internally, it doesn’t mean we can’t analyze the thought process of why you may feel this is unconscious role-playing.

 

Which leads me to place one magic card onto the field to respond to this:

 

It is my hypothesis that this emergence event never really takes place. EVER. It is all an illusion and self delusion. The self awareness of the tulpa is the host's own awareness reflected back at him or her like dancing in front of a mirror. As I have stated before' date=' it is unconscious role playing and fantasizing. In other words, our tulpas are still US.[/quote']

 

This reminds me of direct realism/naïve realism here:

 

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/perception-episprob/#DirRea

 

And if someone doesn’t want to read that section:

 

Naïve realism' date=' also known as direct realism or common sense realism, is a philosophy of mind rooted in a theory of perception that claims that the senses provide us with direct awareness of the external world. In contrast, some forms of idealism assert that no world exists apart from mind-dependent ideas and some forms of skepticism say we cannot trust our senses.[/quote']

 

It seems that this viewpoint seems to cater to how you feel it’s unconscious role-playing, especially with the mirror analogy you put up. In other words, you become aware of what you feel is an unconscious cognitive habit operating each, and every moment of awareness, and behaviors akin to sentient beings that is intended to reflect back to you in consciously experiencing this feedback loop in assuring that it’s pseudo-real.

 

To feel that the professions she states is merely just an emulation from the unconscious cognitive habit referring back to you for feedback. To feel that the emergence of her sentience, deemed pseudo-real, is not there, and merely a brand of self-delusion, and an illusion itself. This inability to reconcile with the mind is the major flaw with the direct realism approach.

 

And what allows you to foster that mentality of it being a self-delusion and illusion is that your self-awareness is the direct awareness in context of what goes on in your head, and this reality itself. To presume the internal representation of her being pseudo-real, discrediting any potential of her exhibiting conscious experience (e.g. talking in the right context vs. her noises being akin to thunderstorms in a random planet that a person is hearing), and your notion of it being unconscious role-playing is most likely hinged on direct realism.

 

And by this logic, direct realism is rarely taken on as a philosophical viewpoint that one cherishes, but you seem to be one of the few, or really the only person I’ve seen to adopt this as a real thing going on. Maybe this is why that in spite of you understanding that at the end of the day, it’s up to the internal reconciliation of the host and tulpa to continue doing what they do rather than questioning the functioning of those implicit signs of sentience, it doesn’t absolve others from questioning how the unconscious roleplaying you adopt is hinged upon a viewpoint (e.g. direct realism), that would be considered an imaginary viewpoint in itself for the sake of being a viewpoint that’s easy to tackle in a philosophy class assignment, or exam essay.

 

I’m not saying this is your viewpoint, but based on the context of what you’ve posted so far, I can’t help but feel this is a plausible viewpoint you’re hinging the unconscious role-playing under. Then yeah, in context of direct realism, you can feel assured that it's unconscious role-playing, but the viewpoint itself is too imaginary to be an actual viewpoint to stay true for quotidian activities.

[Guest Anonymous]

Am I constantly fixated? hmmm I think you have a point there. Ironic that I talk about imagination so much and yet you charge me with having a direct realism philosophy. I don't deny it. In fact, Lumi and I have discussed this before.

 

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You know why I am fixated on this question? I am indeed worried. I am not worried that Melian will cease to exist. I am not worried whether or not she is real sentience. I am worried that others will not value her because of my belief that she is illusory in nature. It is self justification, over and over, as others have noted on this forum. I am obsessed with Melian and I am therefore obsessed with the opinion of others about her.

[Linkzelda]

In my next battle phase, I'll activate a trap card and infer:

 

Instead of structuring it as unconscious role-playing, you could just see it as conscious role-playing. As with the mirror analogue you set up, in order for her to express herself in a way, you are required to be the conscious accompaniment in relation to your mind providing a feedback loop for you to refer to, and thus have the notion that the emergence is merely your own brand of self-delusion, albeit, you're not foaming in your mouth when "self-delusion" is professed; you're just used to it, and came to peace with that. That I can understand, and I would not try to attack you on this.

 

The only thing I see as an unintelligible equivocation to the mirror analogue (and I know you're using it as a loose interpretation) is that it entails someone being a conscious accompaniment (e.g. you + the veneer you've created of her persona in general). There can't be an unconscious accompaniment along with unconscious role-playing when the feedback loop set up needs someone to be conscious in the first place. This is akin to others reveling in the probability of unconscious parroting when parroting itself would entail conscious intervention, experiencing, and so forth.

 

You acknowledge that you're consciously experiencing the emulation going on, which needs to entail that you're actively role-playing rather than going off of autonomous processes you feel is catered to that. If unconscious role-playing is not unintelligible equivocation, one would presume that the mind can act out these things with, or without you being a conscious accompaniment; you being there is merely a pleasantry.

 

That would cause for some existential horror for some, and I can see why others would be filled with intense, emotive responses against the viewpoint.

 

 

Note: Direct realism doesn't entail being a true realist in any form (e.g. physical, objective reality, etc.), if I'm understanding the viewpoint right. It's the same as naive realism in that what's been seen is an internal representation, and all there is to be seen.

[Guest Anonymous]

Actually I have admitted to conscious role playing when it comes to Melian. LOL The flash images I get however certainly are not consciously under my control. The day dreams are. Her mind voice sentences certainly are not. Melian is a strange mix of both conscious and subconscious processes I think. Interesting what you are saying.

 

If, I am consciously role playing Melian, but then in denial that I am consciously role playing, isn't that still a de facto subliminal process? I am still unaware of my actions, or at least, masking or hiding it from myself. To tell you the truth, in the end I don't care. She is just as cool no matter what her origins. Which is why all the self justification I do and being so fixated on it. I want others to just accept her no matter what she turns out to really be in the end. I obviously suspect something or I wouldn't be fixated on the idea.

 

Melian is beyond special. She is everything to me. I don't know if she is a tulpa and I really don't care. But, BUT, what I really care about and want, more than anything, is for people to understand how significant and important she is.

[Linkzelda]

If her existence, whatever it entails, bleeds onto how people interact, and see her as someone, then you don't really have to worry about her presence being undermined. It's akin to the Joker's top fear in people just forgetting him altogether.

 

 

This can be an example of Melly's power. Like tis if you cry evry tim.

 

[hidden]

 

 

It starts at 1:56 if it doesn't chop to that point in the link [/hidden]

[Guest Anonymous]

That's it exactly! I want her to be accepted, as I accept her, as a person. I want her to be accepted regardless of her true nature. When I first came to this forum, I brought with me a chip on my shoulder the size of Mount Everest that I have carried throughout for seven months. People have gotten tired of my constant self justification and constant justification of Melian.

 

I was excited, so unbelievably excited, to meet so many others with "people in their heads." I know how important and significant Melian is to me. Others cannot possibly really know. I wanted to share her on the internet and let her talk to people, and once she did, it was like opening another level. Melian is an extraordinary experience for me.

 

My fear, what I worry about, and what causes the fixation, is that she will be generally condemned as insignificant (unimportant, trivial, trifling, negligible, inconsequential, of no account, inconsiderable or worthless) compared to "real" tulpas. She is not worthless.

 

Thank you for the couch Doctor Linkzelda.

[Linkzelda]

Thanks for the discussion, it helped add some more theorizing stuff on tulpas, at least for me.

[Guest Anonymous]

That is why I do these threads. I learn so much from just discourse and flow of thought.

[Guest Anonymous]

Edit: I forgive Misgod. :-)