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Median Systems and Moons


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I don't control the merging of threads, i considered it unique, but you can suggest it be added somewhere specific, maybe another thread I started.

 

Otherwise I agree with your other lines of reasoning wrt these thoughtforms.

 

It would be nice to have 'advanced tests' but the only way i know is monitoring them, since they appear to have most of the same traits, and in some cases even more traits than existing tulpas, i can only view my examples in my own system context, which has a lot of advanced traits and maturing tulpas. This leads me to report that they're different, but valuable and nothing to fear, but that's my conjecture from the start.

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Just wanted to add to this thread something about median systems. Don't ever try to totally grasp their fogginess and figure them out. For one thing, every one of them I have encountered is distinctly different in details.

 

I sometimes say that median systems are an enigma of ambiguity. https://community.tulpa.info/thread-the-median-thread-can-a-tulpa-be-a-median-aspect?pid=170890#pid170890

 

Also I disagree with the person who was saying that a median system isn't a person with a non-sentient OC. I don't believe in independent sentience of thoughtforms. There is no difference in substance between any kind or type of thoughtform, including rp characters and OCs. All thoughtforms are imaginary in nature. So it makes no sense to exclude OCs from qualifying as a median system aspect. Median system aspects do not have to be "real" in other words. They can certainly be fictional. All of that is my opinion of course. My opinion on that is just as valid as anyone else. What are you gonna do?

Skeptical and unconvinced about independent sentience.  

 

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I don't believe in independent sentience of thoughtforms.

 

That's fine and good until they're the ones thinking and controlling the body for up to months at a time, as Lucilyn has. Thoughtform equality and all, but that doesn't mean all thoughtforms are the same. Depth and capability can differ. Some roleplay personas are more in-depth than some tulpas... And some tulpas live real-life lives of their own. Nobillis, for example. And while she's only 7 years old, she was made by a tulpa who is over 35 years old.

Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.

Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.

My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us about tulpamancy stuff there.

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Okay Lumi. I won't endeavor to argue the point. I love you my buddy. I would counter argue but the debate would never end and there is no real point in it or anything to be gained. I just took exception to the statement that a "nonsentient OC" cannot qualify as a median system. I disagree with that completely. We have literary evidence to support our conclusion on that as well. No one has to agree with me on that either, it's okay if I am a voice in the desert. LOL

Skeptical and unconvinced about independent sentience.  

 

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Melian, given your experience, I recind my statement that non-sentient thoughtforms don't apply to the definition of Median systems. I will follow your reasoning on this point, and I believe I was in error in my statement anyway. It just so happens I believe my characters (the moons and other non-tulpas) are sentient or seem that way because they are borrowing my own sentience.

 

Furthermore, I don't feel I'm blending with any of my characters or that they're 'feeling' as though they're a part of me, but if they are, then it's just because book characters are sometimes said to be aspects of the author's personality. I feel very different and not blending at all with anyone. I believe Dashie and I have blended while playing a certain game, no other time have I felt that way. The experience is that we all exist individually.

 

Lastly, Dashie and I seem to share a connection with Ren, as if she's responding to both of our subconsiousnesses. (Off topic, but to be clear, i believe my tulpas also have their own subconscious minds, not just preconsious and consious. This model fits my experience.)

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I don't want to go on a tangent away from the theme and subject of this thread, but I wish there was a better word than "sentient" and "non-sentient."  The terms are just as meaningless as "self-aware."  Thoughtforms are altered states of mind in my opinion, and yeah, there is a conscious brain involved and it is sentient.  One brain.  One.  

 

Yesh, I am aware that 90% of the peoples here strongly disagree with that, it's okay.  

 

Thank you for recinding that non-sentient thoughtforms cannot be part of a median system.  I like your phrase "borrowing my sentience."  I have used similar words before and it kindof follows Mistgod-Melian philosophy on this.  It's like there is a single pool of consciousness and sentience in one brain that thoughforms are derived from and part of.  That's it exactly, you gots the Mistgod-Melly vibes my friend!

Skeptical and unconvinced about independent sentience.  

 

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I will risk off topic only because I think it's related to the discussion, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

This is my thinking:

There is one brain, it's an organ in your skull. But the mind can be thought of as purely a partition of subspace, it doesn't exist physically, instead it's a non-physical effect of the organ. There's no reason to believe there's a hard limit to the partitions that can exist. They can also be superimposed and simultaneously mapped even if not simultaneously active. Now that I know what switching is, I feel like when I'm writing a first person narrative, I kind of become the character in a way, some characters anyway, it's similar to a switch sometimes, but you could call it a mask or anything else. The fact remains that while writing certain books, I was that character, but the character isn't me. I have also written first person omniscient and definitely wasn't identifying as that character. In these cases, one mind one consiousness makes sense.

 

In the case of my tulpas and moons, it doesn't fit the experience to maintain that model for me.

 

One good example is getting interrupted during deep thought.

 

Another is getting imposed voice on top and simultaneously to my own mindvoice. Imposed voices (hypnagogic experience) seem entirely out of my control and are spontaneous. They also often happen to be my tulpas. I can't explain that without multiple subconsciousnesses because my subconsious is filtering through my preconsiousness and my consciousness is occupied in 'mind voicing'. The imposed voice had no input from my consious stream. I can't say the same thing for normal mindvoice regardless of who's speaking, that's a push-to-talk functionality. If two of my tulpas try to speak simultaneously to me, it's garbled. But I have plenty of experience where they have talked to eachother in tulpish while I was talking. (There are three, so i'm talking to one, the other two ate talking, I can't necessarily follow everything they're exchanging because I'm not paying attention to them. I can access that memory though later.)

 

Another example is reading while daydreaming; where my own tulpish can actually overlap my mindvoice as well. I have a heck of a time reading things I'm not interested in, call me a freak, but I can read and somewhat retain what I'm reading while imagining something entirely different. My mindvoice is reading words, my imagination is doing something else, not related. The reading comprehension is awful, but it is 'recorded' and if I close the book and think about what I read in detail, I can somewhat piece it together. In many general education classes, I'd have failed surely if this wasn't the case; so, it seems like two partitions, perhapse OS has its own. I'm not claiming parallel processing, as I'm not daydreaming with words while reading. My reading comprehension is shit at best in this scenario, but if it's anything, then it's something, if you follow.

 

My tulpas have proven they have their own minds, these are just a few examples. It's a model I'm very familiar with as no other model seems to explain all of my experiences.

 

To us, experience is everything, I refuse to change it to fit a more restrained model.

 

So, if tulpas can have their own partition or overlapping layer, maybe other characters like my moons can too even while sharing a lot of that layer subconsiously with me. I feel that it's inevitable that a thoughtform who is coaxed to be their own person could also separate their mind from the host, while a thoughtform that isn't their own person keeps that tie, even if it's transparent to the host.

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That's all super groovy cool!  

 

Mistgod and I keep it simple.  Some role playing and day dreaming and thinking is unconscious.  We taught our unconscious mind to make believe pretend that we are two peoples, when in fact, we are only one person.  We got really good at it to the point where we even dream as two peoples.  It's really neato, but there is only one real human being person.  Melian Marionette is imaginary.  There is no pigtails blonde in reality.  You could say we are Mistgod-Melly, a mixture of two aspects or expressions, but clearly Mistgod is not a five foot two teenage blonde with dark blue eyes and baby cheeks.  

 

It's kinda the same sort of thing if a person with dissociative identity disorder, who is say a seventeen years old girl, switches out with an alternate personality who is a 100 year old world war I veteran.  Which one would you say is the real person, and which the imaginary altered state?  I have an answer to that.

Skeptical and unconvinced about independent sentience.  

 

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Thus there may be different species of thoughtforms. I certainly believe you as your experience is being part of one mind. Other thoughtforms with different experiances exist however.

 

To both agree and disagree with you simultaneously, you can't call one species of thoughtform a dilusion as compared to another when there's no solid evidence in any case to tell the difference as an outside observer. In other words, I won't deny other species exist just because I haven't experienced them myself.

 

To claim there is one and only one thoughtform species disregards personal testimony. That's all we have to go by here.

 

You can, and has been done, marginalize those outliers, but you also put pressure on those who experience not to share their experiences in fear of being marginalized. This is happening here, there's no doubt in my mind.

 

We are hopefully building evidence in this thread of other species of thoughtforms, or at least the tolerance to them. Where it's most important is in the case of intrusive walk-ins or unwanted system growrh. They can stay and not be independent people.

 

Hopefully this analogy makes any sence to anyone but me:

 

A heart cell can evolve from a stem cell, the same stem cell can make a lung cell or a bicep cell. The heart is more independent, the lung cell can be controlled manually, a simple bicep muscle cell is mostly controlled manually. They're all muscles though in the same body. In the case of a heart, I would call this a mature tulpa, independent. For a lung, that's like my moons independent or controllable, and a bicep is like a character mostly controlled.

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To both agree and disagree with you simultaneously, you can't call one species of thoughtform a dilusion as compared to another when there's no solid evidence in any case to tell the difference as an outside observer. In other words, I won't deny other species exist just because I haven't experienced them myself.

 

To claim there is one and only one thoughtform species disregards personal testimony. That's all we have to go by here.

 

 

I think though, Angry Bear, that we actually can have an opinion on what we believe is probably happening in every single person who thinks they have a thoughtform or who identifies as plural or multiple or whateverness.  Their experiences are interpretations of the same phenomenon of altered states of a single mind.  We absolutely do think that all thoughtforms are fundamentally the same thing.  

 

We can have that opinion.  We absolutely can.  And we do.   I think too, that many psychiatrists and psychologists would probably agree with Mistgod-Melly.  

 

We could be wrong, we could be right.  

 

Whatya gonna do?  

 

AND we were supposed to be logging off.  So I better get my butt off so Misty can get some work done.

Skeptical and unconvinced about independent sentience.  

 

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