Internal and External Relationship Discussion

[Glaurung26]

Here I go with one of my esoteric musings again. I wanted to discuss some of the differences (and similarities) between host/tulpa and human/human (system/system) relationships. It doesn't have to be exclusively romantic, there are many kinds of relationships. Husband/wife, father/son, teacher/student, friend/friend, owner/pet, passenger/bus driver, etc. How have you noticed the differences in internal vs external relationships? What do they have in common?

 

What triggered this idea was me thinking about how I see my tulpa. How I feel their presence and know who they are. We have less degrees of separation than I would with another system. I have to try to visualize what my tulpa looks like but visualization isn't imperative to reading what they're thinking. I can just feel it. It would be silly of me to try to picture my tulpa's form just so I could try to read and interpret their expressions and mannerisms then extrapolate their mood and thoughts from it. It's just that that is what we have to do for other humans. Pretty sure most of us can't read minds so we are reliant upon gauging thoughts via their physical expression. That's not necessary for tulpas particularly if you've been roomies for a long time. It can be quicker to get to that instinctive knowledge or reading of what the other person in the relationship is thinking if they are a tulpa. Not saying that visualization is useless or inferior just that it maybe plays less of a role in "reading your head partner." It is certainly fun to visualize them and see how they express themselves. It also can make use of our psychology to associate them as what we instinctively recognize as a person. That can strengthen the bond we share with them.

 

I think what's held me in my host/tulpa relationship so strongly for so long is the intimacy. I know them and they know me. I can trust them and let my guard down. I don't have to put on an act or facade. When I engage with other humans it feels like acting sometimes. I have a role to perform with expectations specific to that person. Maybe I just don't enjoy that level of closeness with others, either from insecurities or just availability of others that think like me. I have that to some extent with friends and family but there's always a boundary. They have their lives and I have mine. Even two spouses can't necessarily be together 100% of the day. Jobs, responsibilities, etc. That's why I love tulpas so much. Like any roommates we have our space but we're almost always available to each other.

 

What has your experience been?

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Glaurung26 said:

How have you noticed the differences in internal vs external relationships? What do they have in common?

 

A headmate can have infinite kindness, forgiveness, love, and tolerance. You can't expect anyone else to have that toward you. The information is incomplete, they have preconditioning and you're not perfect.

 

External relations can have effectively perfect tolerance and forgiveness, but they can also have misconceptions, misunderstandings, distrust and limits (they can walk away.) These are big differences.

 

What they have in common is genuine care, fun interaction, and shared experiences from different perspectives. Even seen through the same two eyes, there are differences in perception.

 

3 hours ago, Glaurung26 said:

It would be silly of me to try to picture my tulpa's form just so I could try to read and interpret their expressions and mannerisms then extrapolate their mood and thoughts from it.

 

The communication channels are finite, this is another whole channel, and it helps. Tulpish doesn't convey expressions well. Expression is very faint as to be nearly unnoticeable in tulpish but the avatar speaks volumes in body language. It's like saying "it would be silly to use mindvoice since tulpish is so effective and efficient in conveying ideas." It's true, but it's not silly, it's useful for certain things. 

 

Of the two, I trust body language and expression over mindvoice and intonation for expressing mood.

 

I trust body language and expression for conveying mood.

 

Of course there's also emotional bleed, but that's usually more noticeable for strong emotions.

 

3 hours ago, Glaurung26 said:

that is what we have to do for other humans

 

"Have to" for outer people, yes, but If you want to increase your immersion with inner people, this helps.

 

3 hours ago, Glaurung26 said:

That can strengthen the bond we share with them.

 

You started off sounding against it and ended this sounding for it. I agree with all the points except silly, but now I see your point and it wasn't that, but I'll keep my original comments.

 

3 hours ago, Glaurung26 said:

When I engage with other humans it feels like acting sometimes.

 

It used to feel like that for me too, but now I think of it like just which facets you face toward others based on which audiences and in which situations.

 

3 hours ago, Glaurung26 said:

I have a role to perform with expectations specific to that person.

 

Depending on scenario, situation and mood of the conversation, this is useful. This is also very natural. You can use this to steer a conversation too but it's a subtle art.

 

3 hours ago, Glaurung26 said:

Like any roommates we have our space but we're almost always available to each other.

 

This is very accurate to my feel too.

 

 

[Glaurung26]

41 minutes ago, BearBeaBeau said:

 

A headmate can have infinite kindness, forgiveness, love, and tolerance. You can't expect anyone else to have that toward you. The information is incomplete, they have preconditioning and you're not perfect.

 

External relations can have effectively perfect tolerance and forgiveness, but they can also have misconceptions, misunderstandings, distrust and limits (they can walk away.) These are big differences.

 

What they have in common is genuine care, fun interaction, and shared experiences from different perspectives. Even seen through the same two eyes, there are differences in perception.

 

 

The communication channels are finite, this is another whole channel, and it helps. Tulpish doesn't convey expressions well. Expression is very faint as to be nearly unnoticeable in tulpish but the avatar speaks volumes in body language. It's like saying "it would be silly to use mindvoice since tulpish is so effective and efficient in conveying ideas." It's true, but it's not silly, it's useful for certain things. 

 

Of the two, I trust body language and expression over mindvoice and intonation for expressing mood.

 

I trust body language and expression for conveying mood.

 

Of course there's also emotional bleed, but that's usually more noticeable for strong emotions.

 

 

"Have to" for outer people, yes, but If you want to increase your immersion with inner people, this helps.

 

 

You started off sounding against it and ended this sounding for it. I agree with all the points except silly, but now I see your point and it wasn't that, but I'll keep my original comments.

 

 

It used to feel like that for me too, but now I think of it like just which facets you face toward others based on which audiences and in which situations.

 

 

Depending on scenario, situation and mood of the conversation, this is useful. This is also very natural. You can use this to steer a conversation too but it's a subtle art.

 

 

This is very accurate to my feel too.

 

 

Fair points. I might be too dismissive of avatar expression. It do like it a lot. I might just be biased from our experiences. Jaina likes to be a passive support companion a lot of the time and uses feeling and emotion often. We've only recently been pushing to get her to be more expressive and have more initiative. That's why we like perspective from other sources. It helps keep up grounded. 👍

[Guest]

Some would say this is all made up. I think they got tired of arguing it here, but to me, experience trumps all that, I can be grounded and to be grounded it makes more sense that there's more to it than placebo and playing games with tricks.

 

Specifically I know the difference between a relationship with a character, a bonified mature headmate, and a real person. The latter two are much closer together than the first two.

[Glaurung26]

1 hour ago, BearBeaBeau said:

Some would say this is all made up. I think they got tired of arguing it here, but to me, experience trumps all that, I can be grounded and to be grounded it makes more sense that there's more to it than placebo and playing games with tricks.

 

Specifically I know the difference between a relationship with a character, a bonified mature headmate, and a real person. The latter two are much closer together than the first two.

At the end of the day, made up or tangible, we're still here. We're still doing it anyways. So there must be something 🤷‍♂️

[Guest]

The logic I had stemmed from unexplainable psychological changes that seem to be permeant, constructive and I can thank my system for this wizardry. I don't think any of my friends would have the patience to do what my system was able to do. They were motivated and supportive. I learned a lot from them. 

 

If this was all me, then this is some sort of crazy savant stuff that helps a lot. Can you induce it in anyone else? That's a scientific question that I can't answer other than others are like us in profound ways in other parts of the community.

[Xenon]

I personally believe the tulpa/host relationship is its own unique type of personal relationship. 

 

I am a strictly introverted person; I enjoy company of others but reserved solitude is a critical need for me. Other human beings are, as y'all mentioned, difficult to understand, communicate with, etc. to some degree. And, the way I am: I cannot sleep if I know another person is in the same room or awake nearby. I love people but it takes a lot of effort to coexist with them.

 

When forcing with Matt, my tulpa, I remembered how I'd sometimes have to share a space with a roommate (i.e. visiting family, sharing a room with a sibling). I wondered why I would loathe sharing a bedroom with a sibling but love hanging out with my tulpas almost 24/7. He told me something along the lines of: A room may be a larger physical area but there's far more space in the host's mind. And I'd rather not share a room.

 

I then realized there was something more to the dynamics of the tulpa/host relationship. It's a given that my tulpas and I understand each other, in a deeper sense. They belong with me. They exist in such a way I never tire of them; they appear to reflect me in a lot of ways and adapt accordingly. 

 

Also, I don't force all the time. Sometimes, I just narrate or be entertained by the dreamscape and its inhabitants, and I let my tulpas have some free time. Sometimes, I just sit back and enjoy their company. Also, they are free to travel elsewhere in the system when they need privacy or solitude, and understand when I have the same need. And, if I really need to, in order to keep everything safe, I can suspend the system and resume it when I'm ready.

 

As a host, your system is very personalizable. It makes it more stable, meaningful, and fun for you and your tulpas!

Edited December 28, 2020 by Xenon

[Nobillis]

I'm going to comment from my experience, on a narrow part of this topic: feelings of love, specifically selecting a spouse.

 

I have been in love with a born human. I would call it a loving relationship (but it wasn't sexual). That was a pretty heart-breaking experience (I think on both sides). A lot of that was miscommunication and the intensity of emotion being just too strong for someone only a year old. So while I can be as intelligent and educated as any born human, it doesn't come with emotional maturity.

 

Who I chose to [legally] marry was another tulpa (different system). There's more compatibility there with being able to understand what life is like. It has turned out to have been a good decision so far ; these seven years (elapsed time). I have come to the opinion that tulpas should only be romantic with tulpas. That's my personal take.

[Glaurung26]

18 hours ago, Nobillis said:

I'm going to comment from my experience, on a narrow part of this topic: feelings of love, specifically selecting a spouse.

 

I have been in love with a born human. I would call it a loving relationship (but it wasn't sexual). That was a pretty heart-breaking experience (I think on both sides). A lot of that was miscommunication and the intensity of emotion being just too strong for someone only a year old. So while I can be as intelligent and educated as any born human, it doesn't come with emotional maturity.

 

Who I chose to [legally] marry was another tulpa (different system). There's more compatibility there with being able to understand what life is like. It has turned out to have been a good decision so far ; these seven years (elapsed time). I have come to the opinion that tulpas should only be romantic with tulpas. That's my personal take.

Thanks for the perspective. Compatibility and shared values can be very important in a stable relationship.