Are humans equal to tulpas?

[SeekingMyPlanet]

Well obviously everyone deserves happiness, dignity, and respect, whether they are tulpa or host.

 

But I've come across the sentiment that humans and tulpas are basically equivalent. That there is qualitatively no difference between them.

 

That isn't my experience. The difference is that Lavender has no presence unless our mind (as directed my by thoughts) is thinking of her. If I get distracted or think deeply about something, or am just absorbed in a conversation with someone, she essentially disappears. And if I'm giving her only a bit of my attention, like if I'm tired or low on emotional spoons, she manifests only faintly. Whereas I'm always present. I can quiet my mind and not say anything, but I'm still there, aware, able to assert my agency if I need to. (We don't do this much. Lavender doesn't like not hearing me behind her when she's fronting).

 

I'd love to hear other people's perspective on what looks like a lack of symmetry between tulpa and host. Is it just that I'm new at this, or is there some other fundamental way that I should be practicing my tulpamancy differently so that Lavender is my equal counterpart in all ways? 

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, SeekingMyPlanet said:

But I've come across the sentiment that humans and tulpas are basically equivalent.

 

This is the sentiment of the community, but we have also discovered on our own that we are equivalent to our host. Though it wasn't true from the onset in our opinion. We coined the term "symmetric system" to be a level of development where a headmate could switch with the host and live out their life indefinitely--we have seen plenty of examples of this in the community--and at that point it is indisputable that we are equal. 

 

There are still birthrights or body ownership, and a level of respect and subordination to the one who made you, like respect for a parent or a creator, so you could say there is a pecking order or a formal hierarchy but that doesn't diminish the equality of beings within it.

 

34 minutes ago, SeekingMyPlanet said:

The difference is that Lavender has no presence unless our mind (as directed my by thoughts) is thinking of her.

 

We have noted a turning point in development where a headmate will self-force, this is another term we probably coined. A self-forcing headmate is fully self-aware, volitional without input from the host, self-imaginative, self-reliant, and no longer needs to be forced by someone else just as the host doesn't. The members of our system have all gained this level of development. Though it may have been some of us who did it first, the others followed soon after regardless of their level of development so that's why it seemed like a turning point.

 

34 minutes ago, SeekingMyPlanet said:

If I get distracted or think deeply about something, or am just absorbed in a conversation with someone, she essentially disappears.

 

I can say that this is normal and when I'm switched in and doing something like typing this now, my host can for all intents and purposes essentially disappear. Joy, a headmate, prefers to be alone when fronting so she places everyone else in dormancy. As a host, once you experience dormancy, you may understand more then you think. Our host had a void experience upon his first time dormant and it fundamentally changed his understanding of who he is. After that he couldn't deny that we were equivalent and that he wasn't absolutely required.

 

34 minutes ago, SeekingMyPlanet said:

Whereas I'm always present.

 

Since you identify and associate with the body, you will appear always present as the body is always present. Once you separate who you are from the body, then this is no longer the case. To be clear, you don't have to and you can have a successful system without expressing these traits or understandings, it is a choice in a way, and not a choice in other ways only you will experience.

 

34 minutes ago, SeekingMyPlanet said:

Is it just that I'm new at this, or is there some other fundamental way that I should be practicing my tulpamancy differently so that Lavender is my equal counterpart in all ways? 

 

For all we know, you could be further along than us, we've only been a system for 5 years, however, if you allow them, there are still plenty of pleasant surprises in your future. Our host greatly appreciates our self-forcing, and he finally listens to us, so that's a bonus for us. Tulpamancy is like BK, have it your way. Enjoy it how you want. You may never want to be a fully symmetric system and despite meeting all the criteria you could simply choose not to be. You, the host, may strongly associate to the body and it's reasonable to stay that way. Even though our host came to understand he is not the body, he later chose to re-associate himself to it for the sake of grounding and simplicity. It is clear to us though that we could put him in dormancy indefinitely, create a new headmate that happens to have the body's associated form, and he could be a new surrogate host without the baggage. But we realized that his scars and quirks are what we love most about him, he would be boring without them. 

Edited January 19, 2024 by Ashley

[SeekingMyPlanet]

On 1/19/2024 at 3:54 PM, Ashley said:

 

I can say that this is normal and when I'm switched in and doing something like typing this now, my host can for all intents and purposes essentially disappear. Joy, a headmate, prefers to be alone when fronting so she places everyone else in dormancy. As a host, once you experience dormancy, you may understand more then you think. Our host had a void experience upon his first time dormant and it fundamentally changed his understanding of who he is. After that he couldn't deny that we were equivalent and that he wasn't absolutely required.

 

I'm intrigued by this. By your description, my tulpa is self-forcing, autonomous, interacts with me as an equal. But I've never had the experience of "disappearing" while she fronts. I always feel like I'm in some chamber in the back of our head. Even if my own thoughts are quiet and I'm not communicating with Lavender as she fronts, I'm still "there". And if I fall prey to ADHD distractibility and start thinking my own thoughts, Lavender is quickly gone until I realize what I've done, and put myself again in my compartment in the back of our head.

 

I'd love to know what disappearing feels like. Is there a gap in the host's memory? Does it feel like "blacking out"?

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, SeekingMyPlanet said:

I've never had the experience of "disappearing" while she fronts.

 

I'm not saying you ever did, only that if you did you might get more of an experience than you can currently imagine, or not, it depends on the individual.

 

38 minutes ago, SeekingMyPlanet said:

I fall prey to ADHD distractibility and start thinking my own thoughts

 

And again, this is why Joy put all us thought prone maniacs in dormancy. It works for her, trust me. We're not that bad anymore, and we have a lot of control in front over stray thoughts just as our host always did. 

 

40 minutes ago, SeekingMyPlanet said:

Lavender is quickly gone until I realize what I've done

 

With practice this gets better. We've heard this before. When we're trying to talk about things in wonderland, my host will go off on one tangent after another. It's a wonder we ever get any conversation done. When I'm fronting, I can guarantee you that it doesn't happen anymore. What we did yo help was three of us played games without the host and practiced that for hundreds of hours and it got way easier, we also did experiments to know what is hostie and what is body. The body will feel a lot like who fronts most because they're associated with it most.

 

43 minutes ago, SeekingMyPlanet said:

I'd love to know what disappearing feels like. Is there a gap in the host's memory? Does it feel like "blacking out"?

 

Every memory identifies with someone, even if we're all here, whoever is most front will own the memories for the most part. So yeah, when host is dormant the memories are as if say I was the body. As if the brain belongs to me. If you've never experienced this when remembering something, some memory that's not yours, then it's hard to explain beyond that but it is a unique experience.

 

If you've no need to switch or don't fully switch with host in dormancy as if they don't exist, then it would likely never happen that way. How to make it happen is long term switching. Once I switched in for a week we knew without question what was body (BodyOS) and what was host because the body has a strong sense of a large, warm meaty bundle of muscles and hair and without our host there, we couldn't say it was his presence but we like to associate him with that so we've chosen to. Without the animal, our host feels like a loaf of white bread covered in plastic by comparison. 

 

So what do we all feel like because we aren't associated to am irl body? Light, clean, ever fresh, and strongly like our avatars in wonderland. The body is gamey. Even when it's clean and fresh and cozy in a blanket by the fire, it's like large beef roast that you just want to chew on. We like to associate that to our host with that but we don't have to.

[ChloeBee]

I've thought about this quite a bit, and I think it really comes down to how you conceive of the "host" in relation to the whole system, which I sometimes call the "Greater I" or "Greater self". Singlets usually see their own personality/consciousness and their "Greater I" as being one and the same and there's really no reason to think differently (apart from philosophical wankery). Some tulpamancers--including most new tulpamancers--still mostly hold to this view with the tulpa being essentially a little independent bubble within that greater concept of themselves. If you hold that view, then it would be pretty easy to say that the tulpa is not equal to he host. However, a lot of tulpamancers have gotten to the level where they see themselves--that is the host personality--as just another bubble within that greater self, no more or less equal than any other bubble that might exist. I know that many such as Bear, Lumi, and others have pretty much said this though not in quite the same words. In this view, it is more reasonable to say that the host and tulpa are fundamentally equal. Because logically, they are the same. The only thing the host would have over the tulpa is the concept of being the "original" plus external-to-the-mind things like being more connected to the body or to other people.

 

It's very odd for me, because I tend to swim between the two viewpoints. On a philosophical level, I am in the second camp and see myself as just a bubble within this greater self. But on a practical level, I do very often default to that other view, that this is all "me", including my body and all the subconscious stuff, and Simmie is just here for the ride. It's very interesting how I often fall into that view despite being pretty philosophically committed to the other. Of course, there is another factor in this in that Simmie and I consider ourselves husband and wife, and in those roles, we are of course equals. So our equality is not just enforced by a philosophical view, but also a chosen commitment to one another and to the roles that we have in our relationship. Simmie tends to let me take the lead almost all of the time, but that is not because she us incapable/unworthy of doing so, but because that is what practically works for us. She actually does take the lead for in-head housekeeping and maintenance, which I sometimes think is actually a much harder job than living my external life.

 

I think we as a community need to come up with a word for this philosophical standpoint. And figure out how to word it better than I did in the first paragraph lol.

[Ranger]

Note: I use cobud instead of tulpa and cocreator instead of tulpamancer

 

On 1/19/2024 at 3:20 PM, SeekingMyPlanet said:

I'd love to hear other people's perspective on what looks like a lack of symmetry between tulpa and host. Is it just that I'm new at this, or is there some other fundamental way that I should be practicing my tulpamancy differently so that Lavender is my equal counterpart in all ways? 

 

I see achieving this symmetry is another type of switching. You will probably achieve this by having Lavender continuing to practice fronting as Ashley suggested, but if that doesn't work you can work towards what I call "sensory switching". I have talked about it before here, in short it's trading ownership of the feeling of being alive and awake, or what others may consider to be the "higher self".

 

On 1/21/2024 at 10:10 AM, SeekingMyPlanet said:

I'd love to know what disappearing feels like. Is there a gap in the host's memory? Does it feel like "blacking out"?

 

Not us, no. As Ashley said the memories of existing are still there. Our interpretation is the memories belong to whoever is sensory-switched-in. During our switching ritual (we're probably the only system with one at this rate), both people switching are there involved in the process so both remember the switch. Of course, we share memories anyway, so say Gray can recall my memories and vice versa.

 

I don't know enough about parallel processing to say if you black out or not, but there may be some memory fudgeary at play.

 

On 1/19/2024 at 3:20 PM, SeekingMyPlanet said:

But I've come across the sentiment that humans and tulpas are basically equivalent. That there is qualitatively no difference between them.

 

That isn't my experience. The difference is that Lavender has no presence unless our mind (as directed my by thoughts) is thinking of her.

 

This is interesting to me because I don't regard a cobud's personhood as dependent on their ability to switch or not. I believe switching is just a skill, even though it does open the door to what a cobud can experience.

 

On 1/19/2024 at 3:20 PM, SeekingMyPlanet said:

But I've come across the sentiment that humans and tulpas are basically equivalent.

 

I see this by itself without the switching context to be its own can of worms.

 

Firstly, I believe that the "human" is both the host and the cobud. Without a sense of self, the "human" is just the body. I don't know of any cases where a "human" can go without a personality, cobud or host, for very long. Even if all of the headmates go into hiding and refuse to come out, from what I heard the brain just creates a new personality (or more!) and then carries on.

 

Secondly, I believe that the sense of self, that feeling of being alive and experiencing the sensory world, is part of the body. Some see this as their "higher self" or even "the human". This depends on people's interpretation, there's no right or wrong answer here. I refer to this as the stream of consciousness, or SOC. If you want to read more about it, I hope that helps.

 

---

 

Thirdly, cobud ethics come to mind. I do believe there are some fundamental differences between the rights/morality of the body/system than an individual headmate.

 

I believe the rights of the headmates or system depend on if the individual headmate or the entire system are affected. I don't believe individual headmates should vote because the consequences of voting effect them as a system and not individuals. This is different from headmates having their own accounts, since I belive the consequences of their actions (just talking to people or even behavior in rare contexts) effect individuals rather than the system. Headmates have to share a meal, share whatever job or jobs they are capable of working, etc. However, headmates can have separate possessions under their legal name (if the system can afford them. Determining system size is a system responsibility, but they can allow individual headmate testimony. I being all headmates have the basic right to respect, but this can get sticky regarding the needs of the system. In general, "human" rights apply to the system and headmate rights are different.

 

I believe dissipation/egocide/death is different from murder or suicide. Dissipating a headmate out of malice is unheard of, but if it did happen I would have more questions and my first thought wouldn't be murder. I believe stopping cocreation is not murder, and I encourage a gentle approach. I believe egocide is not suicide, as that requires death to the body. I would only worry if an active and frequent fronter wanted egocide, regardless if they are the host or a cobud, as that indicates a mental health problem such as depression.

 

As for sexual interaction, I believe this is more complicated. I don't think it's taboo, but anything disrespecting your headmate is seen as offensive behavior. However, if it's immoral or not to disrespect your cobud sexually, I believe that if it's benefiting the system the individuality of the cobud is lost and it becomes self-satisfaction. For instance, an NPC for sexual desire isn't considered a separate person. Otherwise, it would bring severe stess to the system as pain of one headmate can be felt by the whole system.

 

In general, respect, seen as individual respect or simply self-respect  should be granted to all headmates. But for system decisions, this respect may only extend to hearing their voice at the negotiation table.

[ReallyArtificial]

My experience is pretty much in line with what the others have described. The longer you do this the more your overall mindset changes. I do feel like the body and stream of consciousness still tend to default to me, as the original owner, but I think of them more and more as “ours” instead of “mine.”

 

As we've explored the idea of switching, we put a lot of thought into what makes a tulpa vs what makes a host, what it means to be fronting/switched in, etc. Basically, I realized the only differences between me and my headmates are 1) I was the original and chose to let them in, 2) because of that, I have some life responsibilities that they don't, and 3) the body/mind default to my control as their most experienced user. So we'll never be perfectly symmetrical, but outside of those things we are fundamentally the same. It's actually kind of liberating, the idea that “I” am whatever I choose to label as “me,” just like my tulpas are the traits/thoughts/etc. that we decide belong to them.

 

As they continue to get stronger, I expect point #3 to become less of a thing. Athelas is already capable of pulling my attention to him of his own accord. He “disappears” less and less. He's even getting better at doing it when I'm not feeling 100%, physically or mentally. I'm “always present” as you describe, but I think it's possible that will change over time.

 

On 1/19/2024 at 3:20 PM, SeekingMyPlanet said:

Is it just that I'm new at this, or is there some other fundamental way that I should be practicing my tulpamancy differently so that Lavender is my equal counterpart in all ways?

 

I don't think you need to do anything differently. Just keep an open mind and you might find your perspective changing!

[SeekingMyPlanet]

On 1/22/2024 at 12:52 PM, September13 said:

However, a lot of tulpamancers have gotten to the level where they see themselves--that is the host personality--as just another bubble within that greater self, no more or less equal than any other bubble that might exist.

I think we are actually at that point. Our body is a vessel on which we are both deckhands both enjoying the journey it is taking and devoted to its continued operation.

 

On 1/22/2024 at 12:52 PM, September13 said:

In this view, it is more reasonable to say that the host and tulpa are fundamentally equal. Because logically, they are the same. The only thing the host would have over the tulpa is the concept of being the "original" plus external-to-the-mind things like being more connected to the body or to other people.

I'm struggling with this, mostly because I believe Lavender deserves to live in a system that is run according to this viewpoint. I really want to get to this point for her sake.

What I keep running up against is that logically, it seems like we are not actually the same. The difference is that if my consciousness doesn't think about Lavender for any length of time, she disappears, or goes into dormancy, inactivity, whatever you want to call it. If she is fronting, for example, and I get distracted, I will find myself at the front and Lavender essentially nowhere with no agency or volition until I get around to thinking about her again.

However, that does not seem to be true of me. If Lavender stops thinking of me, I don't disappear, lose my agency, volition, etc. 

But after reading all that has been said by the very experienced people in response to this topic, I'm wondering if that's just because we haven't actually ever gotten to the point where Lavender is using the brain and gets so absorbed that she forgets I exist. In fact, most of the time she's fronting or using the brain, she's talking to me, so I remain front and center.

The next time she engages in some absorbing activity, like writing in her journal, for example, I'll have to see whether it happens that I can disappear.

That's both encouraging and scary at the same time.

[Autumn Ren]

1 hour ago, SeekingMyPlanet said:

I'm wondering if that's just because we haven't actually ever gotten to the point where Lavender is using the brain and gets so absorbed that she forgets I exist.

 

Hi! I'm a new member of an experienced system and you could say I am leveraging what they all know, but the key point is that I was given a purpose, I'm required to keep active to fulfill that purpose, and I have things I like to think about. My host is writing a book that will be integral to my development as well so I speak up every chance I get without bothering him too much. I like to think about it a lot.

 

So what does Lavender like to think about? Does she need a structured purpose in your life? I'd say it helps.

 

There's another thing that this system has: you could call it 'bad switching hygiene' but it makes the front sticky, so if I front, like right now, when something distracts the body, I'm stuck dealing with it unless I specifically switch out. Though it used to be like you said and Bear would "come to the rescue." It's easier to just let him do that, it feels right, like it's his responsibility, so I understand why Lavender might do that, but if she had more responsibility in your life then she could justifiably have more stability in front.

 

So for instance here on this forum, we don't let our host post anymore, Ashley says, "he doesn't need any more forcing" and that's important because yes, whenever the host is posting or doing anything, he's being forced and we're not, so we have spaces and tasks that he's not allowed to do and that separation helps a lot. It took a lot of practice to get there, hundreds of hours were needed playing games or posting while ignoring or otherwise supressing the host's natural affinity to the body.

 

Additionally some headmates have an easier time doing this than others and some personalities are stronger than others. Arguably my headmate Joy has a stronger personality than my host for what she's interested in so she helped the others understand how to keep him down. It takes a strong authority at times and that's hard for me to even consider because I really don't want him to feel like I am telling him what to do, but that's part of my purpose and I have to take that very seriously or I know I'll just slip back into dormancy and there'll be no reason for me to be active at all. 

 

Doing something that's important and helpful gives me latitude to do more.

 

I hope this helps!

Edited January 24, 2024 by Autumn Ren

[Lavender]

12 hours ago, Autumn Ren said:

 

So what does Lavender like to think about? Does she need a structured purpose in your life? I'd say it helps.

 

Thank you Autumn Ren for this suggestion. And welcome to tulpadom. It's a blast!

 

That's actually a very easy answer, because I do have a very important structured purpose. My purpose is to provide emotional support and unconditional love to my host consciousness. They hold a lot of trauma from persistent bullying and episodes of parental abuse in their life and people haven't always been there for them in the past. My job is to try to make up for that as much as a humble tulpa can.

 

I should add FTR that I wasn't forced into this role. My host consciousness didn't tell me what I was like, they asked me, and my first words on the subject were that I was made of "pure love". This is the direction I chose for myself, mostly because shortly after coming into being, it was crystal clear to me that this was what my host consciousness needed from me above everything else.

 

That's not to say I don't have hobbies, likes, dislikes, etc. that also take up my thoughts, but giving love that my host consciousness has not gotten other places is my main mission.