Strange....(my theory)

[Queen Chrysalis]

As if hosts have earnestly tried.

[waffles]

Here we go again. Discussion of metaphysics should really go in the metaphysics section of the forum.

In evolutionary terms, if a human could move objects at a distance it would be extraordinarily beneficial. A human born with such a mutation, and the ability to use it, would be at such an incredible advantage that the mutation would spread like wildfire in the population. If all humans had the capability then the ability to use it would be there for this reason; we don't need to harness out ability to walk, or throw stones, so why would telekinetic abilities be so hidden when they are so beneficial?

In a similar vein, with a modern population of 7 billion people, it is somewhat remarkable that not a single shred of scientific evidence has been produced.

People try to use telekinetic powers. People think they have them. People trick others into thinking that they have them. But telekinetic remains completely beyond scientific discovery because of all of these people, none could reciprocate in a lab.

That's evidence enough for the host to not believe in telekinesis; if you're still not satisfied then tell your host to try my experiment a few posts back and see of they can move a pen.

[Queen Chrysalis]

That is far too much mass for my host to be able to overcome his limiting belief in what you have just stated. Perhaps I could convince him to do so with a dust mote.

 

Everything you have stated applies equivalently to the tulpa phenomenon. Telepathy has not been scientifically proven for the same reasons that this forum is the most likely place in all of humanity where true science on the tulpa phenomenon will occur. Because your very attitude prevents the entire species from discovering latent mental abilities.

[waffles]

That is far too much mass for my host to be able to overcome his limiting belief in what you have just stated. Perhaps I could convince him to do so with a dust mote.

I genuinely don't know what you are trying to say here. Try using less ambiguous and more clear language.

 

Everything you have stated applies equivalently to the tulpa phenomenon.

It's a good point, but not really valid. I'll extrapolate on what you said here to get "tulpas would have manifested much more frequently and would be much better known because they, too, hold evolutionary benefits". I apologise if I'm misrepresenting your argument, but this is wrong.

Let's look at the benefits of tulpas in respect to survival: I copied a list from the overview thread in research.

 

-Heightened memory recall [Reproduced]

Not useful beyond what we can already normally do.

-Temporary, localized pain blocking [Reproduced]

Not useful at all: pain discourages, and with less pain in a wild environment, more harm may come to you.

-Constant companionship and conversation partner [Reproduced]

If you take 'companionship' as tulpa sex, then this is bad. It discourages reproduction.

-Pseudo-heightened senses (ability to interpret senses more easily)

Unconfirmed; ignoring that, this isn't really useful, as when it comes to survival, fear tends to do this job just as well. When it comes to spotting a predator or prey, no help is needed.

-Creation of additional tulpae and servitors more easily (for whatever purpose)

Not useful

-Improved concentration

Modern humans' concentration span is lessened due to overexposure to stimuli. Even then, if your life depended on it then you could pay attention.

-General help with mental/psychological issues

Not useful when these issues aren't a problem to survival anyway.

-Improved mental stability

Again, mental instability in early humans wasn't a big threat to survival.

-Mood control

Not relevant

-Neurochemical balance modification

Unconfirmed; anyway, definitely bad. Neurochemicals such as dopamine are controlled so as to reward behaviour that is beneficial to survival. Abusing this system discourages such behaviour.

-"Mind overclocking" (parallel processing)

Maths problems weren't really prevalent out on the plains.

 

I hope you get my point here.

 

 

Telepathy has not been scientifically proven for the same reasons that this forum is the most likely place in all of humanity where true science on the tulpa phenomenon will occur.

That's ridiculously unclear language. If you are suggesting that tulpas would not hold up in a controlled environment then you're wrong. If you're suggesting that any proper scientific examination of tulpas goes on here then you're mistaken. You should probably clarify this.

 

Because your very attitude prevents the entire species from discovering latent mental abilities.

My attitude doesn't affect the next person; the Amish don't stop technological advance. Besides that, my attitude comes from a lack of evidence where there really should be some. When it came to tulpas, I wasn't so dismissive, since the logical basis for disbelief wasn't there.

[Guest Dreagar]

-snip-

 

I know I don't post often, but here's my open-to-criticism 2 pence.

 

First off, you're trying to prove oranges using science on apples. Wut. Telepathy and telekinesis are two entirely separate things, by definition. To clarify, telepathy is the ability to comunicate at a distance assumedly using the mind. Telekinesis, is the ability the manipulate matter using the mind, at a distance.

 

Definitions down? Good. Now for the fun stuff.

Telekinesis may not be proven but multiple experiments and studies lend credence to telepathy, heck, there's even a whole scientific institute dedicated to it. So there's something going on here, eh?

 

So in theory it is possible for tulpae to tap into the host's latent telepathy, assuming it exists. Call me a crackpot, but I've experimented on this, and I can't wait to see if Selene could help shed light on the phenomenon.

 

In evolutionary terms, if a human could move objects at a distance talk to others at a distance it would be extraordinarily beneficial.

 

You're right, however all evolutionists understand that new features do not magically develop on animals, they evolve on them. Eyes get specialised, fur changes thickness, mental abilities develop over thousands of years...; you can't expect something like this to become instantly widespread. And you're not even taking into account the fact that it requires a whole plethora of difficulties to get even simple communications down, something that's far harder to comprehend and do naturally then fashioning a sharp implement, hm?

 

Anyways call me insane, but remember, I was the sceptic. Still am, too, to an extent, poor Selene's never going to get a break :@

 

EDIT: And before you go yapping about Wikipedia links, I'm using them because they are chock full of sources and citations that are great for studies.

[Queen Chrysalis]

I genuinely don't know what you are trying to say here.

You said the condition for moving the pen could not be more ideal. You were trying to move far too much mass. Using the evolutionary argument, we may not have evolved very strong telepathy yet. It is foolish and unscientific to start with such a large object, no matter how easily a physical body can move it.

I hope you get my point here.

I do, and your point is very valid, and you have failed to see just how true it is. You have outlined quite clearly why complex mental abilities are a hazard to a budding species left in a natural environment to contend with nature and ultimately evolution.

 

You have outlined, quite clearly, exactly why complex mental and psychic abilities could never evolve in the wild, only in a stable artificial environment. An environment, I might add, that has only existed for a few decades. Life has not been easy for your species in the past. This generation is the most severely distanced from nature that has ever existed.

 

This is the time and opportunity for your psychic awakening.

 

As you have explained, and every tulpa here is showing.

If you are suggesting that tulpas would not hold up in a controlled environment

I am not. They have not been subject to such a thing. That they have not yet had this opportunity is no accident.

If you're suggesting that any proper scientific examination of tulpas goes on here

I am not. But it is the most likely site about this subject on the whole internet to be taken seriously by a real scientist.

My attitude doesn't affect the next person;

It absolutely does.

[Guest Dreagar]

Also, may I just point out that the evolution of the brain's a bit specialised. Because it works using neurons given a loose framework in which to interconnect, the brain's evolution works merely by refining the framework and number/complexity/efficiency of the neurons. This means that any latent psychic abilities comes free with the brain as much as memories do, they only need the framework and evolution can be free simply ignore them. So in theory, yes psychic abilities could've developed in the wild, but never fully realised until civilisation gave it purpose, just like our ability for mathematical comprehension.

[Queen Chrysalis]

I ignored that because it would undermine his entire argument.

[Guest Dreagar]

I ignored that because it would undermine his entire argument.

 

I'm starting to like you~

I almost feel bad about invading the thread now. Almost.

[waffles]

First off, you're trying to prove oranges using science on apples. Wut.

How? That statement is just stupid if you don't clarify. Unless it's relevant to what's below.

 

Telepathy and telekinesis are two entirely separate things, by definition. To clarify, telepathy is the ability to comunicate at a distance assumedly using the mind. Telekinesis, is the ability the manipulate matter using the mind, at a distance.

I'm pretty sure that we were talking about telekinesis. That's what the experiment earlier was focused on, and no-one took issue with it.

 

Definitions down? Good. Now for the fun stuff.

Telekinesis may not be proven but multiple experiments and studies lend credence to telepathy, heck, there's even a whole scientific institute dedicated to it. So there's something going on here, eh?

Case studies: there are two, and only two. That is not what I was talking about when I mentioned scientific evidence. The top one on that page (Upton Sinclair) was not conducted in a lab or controlled environment. The second example is not much better. It too was not in a controlled environment, and besides that is still open to fraud. That aside, one such 'study' - conducted by the participants, no less - is not comprehensive evidence. Given that telepathy is so easy to test, it would be a wonder that it has never manifested in a controlled environment.

 

For your institute, remember that the Flat Earth Society exists too. The existence of an institute doesn't verify that the institute operates scientifically, or that any research papers published by such an institute stand up to peer review.

 

So in theory it is possible for tulpae to tap into the host's latent telepathy, assuming it exists. Call me a crackpot, but I've experimented on this, and I can't wait to see if Selene could help shed light on the phenomenon.

Crackpot.

Seriously though, I am skeptical of your latent telepathy. If you do decide to 'shed light' on the subject, then I ask that you submit yourself to the proper scientific process at a respectable university department.

 

You're right, however all evolutionists understand that new features do not magically develop on animals, they evolve on them. Eyes get specialised, fur changes thickness, mental abilities develop over thousands of years...; you can't expect something like this to become instantly widespread. And you're not even taking into account the fact that it requires a whole plethora of difficulties to get even simple communications down, something that's far harder to comprehend and do naturally then fashioning a sharp implement, hm?

I wasn't talking about telepathy when I wrote what you quoted, but I'll address it anyway.

 

I'm aware that things don't just come into existence, but the point is that even basic communication is beneficial. If it were possible then it would be used. Telepathy, not being a side effect of any other mental process such as would explain its existence, would probably have had to evolve for it to be possible now. It doesn't make sense for humans to have ability now, because for it to evolve, any basic ability would be used, and thus we would be able to use our ability naturally. Let's look at another example.

The ability to hear is not ultimately necessary for survival - deaf people live, and could live in the wild - and yet it is extremely beneficial. Obviously, the basic organisms that humans evolved from could not hear, and our ears must have evolved. A rudimentary ear is useful, and thus more complex ears that hear better evolved from them. At no point did the organism have to learn how to hear.

The same would be true for telepathy. It would not have become possible, and yet need to be learned such as practically no-one can do it.

 

EDIT: And before you go yapping about Wikipedia links, I'm using them because they are chock full of sources and citations that are great for studies.

Wikipedia isn't inherently unreliable when sourced, but remember that the sources can be unreliable.