Subconcious parroting and possible relation to asperger/autism

[arbiterspartan]

Just make sure that when you're not sure what was them, you ask them. Not that hard.

 

Isn't this compounding on the same problem though? If you have trouble knowing what is you and what's your tulpa, I'm confused how asking them to clarify will fix that, as you're still relying on "possible" thoughts from them that you're unsure of.

 

In your case, if you really have trouble making out what's your tulpa and what's you, I'd suggest focusing all of your effort on learning audio imposition.

 

Have you found in your experience that this can be directly applied to the tulpa? Meaning that once this is learned, a tulpa is able to take control of and utilize it for their own communication? I ask because it seems like a good solution to this problem, but my worry is it won't be any less distinct from myself as mindvoice.

[garland]

You expect something to happen, and it happens. It's not subconscious, it's entirely conscious, except automatic. If it would be something like "My brain is giving me replies that don't come from me", then that would be your tulpa. Understand that there is no such thing as subconscious parroting, but there IS parroting from expectations, and it does make sense that your disorder makes that more prevalent (and that others with the same disorder don't have it at all) because some people with asperger's like to predict what's going to happen so they don't have to deal with as many unexpected situations and have an easier life

 

Yeah this is exactly my problem, i think it's related to linear thinking, if you google that you will indeed i always only know how to solve problems using linear thinking, and that indeed makes me a lot predicting what's going to happen since i have no way of knowing otherwise.

 

Just make sure that when you're not sure what was them, you ask them. Not that hard.

Well obviously that doesn't work, the same problem keeps happening, usually in this case i usually rely on intuintion, which as you can imagine isn't much reliable.

 

In your case, if you really have trouble making out what's your tulpa and what's you, I'd suggest focusing all of your effort on learning audio imposition. Hearing a voice that sounds physical will probably help you get rid of that little problem, and on top of that it'll probably make presence and smell imposition a lot easier.

I am not that sure if this is reliable at all. I WAS able to hallucinate a few visualizations i did intensively (altough it wasn't from the tulpas), in the past, so if those can be induced at will the same problem keeps happening.

 

The only way i found so far is the possession, sure i noticed that even the possession seems to be influenced by my expectation BUT in this case it's easier to notice because i have to make a significant effort to influence the involuntary movements and it's actually a lot easier to notice and i am able to avoid it. Lately i started not trusting this method anymore since i thought my tulpas would be a lot better than they are actually, but now since i found these answers are INDEED them, i am now trusting possession once again, so i guess i will use this, since with possession expectation seems to be easier to notice when it's trying to influence.

[Guest Anonymous]

The problem is not with you, it's with the tulpa. Your job is to force the tulpa, give it attention and make sure you develop it as much as you can. The tulpa is supposed to show you the difference between them and intrusive thoughts. If you can't tell the difference, they're not developed enough. At least, that's what you should assume. You don't really think that you won't be able to tell the difference forever, do you?

 

Just think ahead. Picture yourself 2 years from now with your tulpa, and be realistic about it judging by your progress right now. Are they imposed? Can they possess? Can you switch? Are they even around?

 

If you can know the answer to these questions, just work towards that goal. I doubt you'll have trouble knowing who's who once your tulpa is imposed and at least moderately independent. Many people consider me an independent tulpa, but I still have trouble with things like possession, and calling for my host's attention when he's busy. Whenever he's not focusing on something, though, I can get his attention without him focusing on me - and he didn't need to develop this on my behalf. Hosts seem to think all the work is for them, but the tulpa has to put a considerable amount of work into developing themselves as well.

 

I hate tulpa-child analogies, but in this case it fits since it's progress related. When you're teaching your child how to eat on their own, or ride a bike, or doing potty training, there is only so much you can do for them. You give them the necessary tools they need to learn how to do it on their own. This applies whenever you teach anyone anything, and tulpas still fall under this. By forcing, you're only giving yourself and your tulpa the tools you need to communicate better. This includes learning on your behalf (imposition, consistent forcing, letting go during possession) and learning on the tulpa's behalf (acting on your own, controlling your form, taking control during possession and, most importantly, trying to detach yourself from your host).

 

I do not believe you can forcibly detach your tulpa from yourself. This is an effort that is guided by the host, but ultimately executed by the tulpa. So, my advice to you would be to continue forcing as normal, and leaving it up to your tulpa to make it easier for you to distinguish between them and intrusive thoughts/expectations. The only effort you need to make is getting to know your tulpa by interacting with them. If this is too hard, narrate to them as if they were still non-vocal until they are vocal enough for you to know the difference.

 

My advice to the tulpa in question would be to experiment. Try a different mindvoice, try thinking of things your host isn't thinking about, try grabbing their attention when they're thinking of anything but you. I will note, it is incredibly hard at first, but it gets easier the more you get the hang of it, as with any skill.

 

Bottom line - effort. From both sides.

 

Hope this helps.

[garland]

The problem is not with you, it's with the tulpa. Your job is to force the tulpa, give it attention and make sure you develop it as much as you can. The tulpa is supposed to show you the difference between them and intrusive thoughts. If you can't tell the difference, they're not developed enough.

 

Yeah i think this is the problem, if the answers i have been getting from them ARE genuine ones (despite them feeling EXACTLY the same as parroting) indeed the kind of things they say is very... incoerent to say the least, most of the sentences never make sense as a whole in a conversation (it's almost like they only have the attention span of a sentence at a time without considering the previous one said), they keep changing the replys to the same questions they answers before IF i don't remember what they said last time, actually they don't seem to have any memory at all, not even things said intensively to them only a few seconds ago that i happened to forget, they always have the same exact mistakes i have when i talk to them, i mean, this has ALL the signals of being "selftalk" with the respective inconsistencies, and when i am able to be truly mindfull when i ask my tulpas to talk... i get complete silence for several minutes!! All of this makes me thing i has been simulating them all this time...

 

At least, that's what you should assume. You don't really think that you won't be able to tell the difference forever, do you?

 

Actually, after 6 months of being at this, i AM each day starting to fear that they really won't ever get past to this, because no matter how much narration i do to pandora on a daily basis, her level of vocality is always the same since she was 2-3 months old so definetly something is wrong here, unless this IS all indeed simulating and i am speaking for them without realizing i don't know, then i must tell you they aren't even able to send emotions at will, and even with giberish and pure thoughts they seem to have a lot of trouble!

 

Just think ahead. Picture yourself 2 years from now with your tulpa, and be realistic about it judging by your progress right now. Are they imposed? Can they possess? Can you switch? Are they even around?

 

Judging by my progress right now?? But they seem to be stagnant since pandora was 2-3 months old! At the rate this seems to be going, it will take almost 5 years or more for them to start talking like real persons...

 

Many people consider me an independent tulpa, but I still have trouble with things like possession

But wait a minute! My tulpas are VERY good at possession, at least in some specific movements like bending fingers, moving my head and eyes in a INVOLUNTARY way that doesn't feel like it's me doing it! But that's about it, most all the other kind of movements feel like assisted possesion at worst.

 

and calling for my host's attention when he's busy. Whenever he's not focusing on something, though, I can get his attention without him focusing on me - and he didn't need to develop this on my behalf. Hosts seem to think all the work is for them, but the tulpa has to put a considerable amount of work into developing themselves as well.

 

This is something i never understood, EVERY single time i hear my tulpas when not forcing, it ALWAYS feels like it was me just remembering them randomly (as it uses to happen with other things i usually remember randomly) so i am not sure anymore... in your case your host also feels like he just remembered you randomly and then you were able to get his attention, or he REALLY feels it was you who called him and not him remembering you accidently?

 

Hosts seem to think all the work is for them, but the tulpa has to put a considerable amount of work into developing themselves as well.

Actually if i don't do the work for them, they usually never manifest at all, actually most of my tulpas don't ever talk if i don't ask them to talk or think about them, it's like if they didn't exist without my direct attention. Even those that are 3-4 months old.

 

I hate tulpa-child analogies, but in this case it fits since it's progress related. When you're teaching your child how to eat on their own, or ride a bike, or doing potty training, there is only so much you can do for them. You give them the necessary tools they need to learn how to do it on their own. This applies whenever you teach anyone anything, and tulpas still fall under this. By forcing, you're only giving yourself and your tulpa the tools you need to communicate better. This includes learning on your behalf (imposition, consistent forcing, letting go during possession) and learning on the tulpa's behalf (acting on your own, controlling your form, taking control during possession and, most importantly, trying to detach yourself from your host).

You see this is probably why they are like this, in the last 3-4 months i THOUGHT i was listening to their real answers because they came instantly as soon as i asked, and since many people here say to trust most answers that don't feel forced and felt "natural", that's what i did. The problem is that lately i have been noticing that these answers NEVER seen to show any intelligence behind them, and never changes, it's REALLY almost like if i was roleplaying them while thinking i was hearing their true answers because i don't even know how it feels like hearing tulpa's answers as feeling not from me! Actually lately i have been becoming SO parrotnoid that i am unable to even distinguish or not when i create answers for them or not, no matter how much i practise meditation and similar things.

 

But now what i am supposed to do? I already narrated them 100000000000 times to speak in a different way than me so that i distinguish them, and nothing ever changes. I am starting to think they are irreversibly "spoiled" and they are a lost case.

 

I do not believe you can forcibly detach your tulpa from yourself. This is an effort that is guided by the host, but ultimately executed by the tulpa. So, my advice to you would be to continue forcing as normal, and leaving it up to your tulpa to make it easier for you to distinguish between them and intrusive thoughts/expectations.

They either have no idea how to do this, or they have no interest in doing this, because i always have been having douzens of desperate times about this, and they never seem to change at all, most of the times they don't even react to anything! Not even to most negative things. Tell me what i should try anymore to have them start doing things for themselfs? Narration IS absolutly worthless so far, i mostly do passive forcing (just narration mostly), unless this will take several more months or years. I also already threatned to start ignoring them indefinetly a few times (only when i was desperate) but obviously i will try avoiding this for real at all costs and only use this as a very last resort, but i have tried to many things already and nothing seems to work. There's still another thing i am REALLY almost start doing, if the current method i am doing isn't working i still start shunning ALL their answers as parroting to see if once and for all they start to do some effort to change it, because this is already going too far, each week i am having more and more trouble believing they even exist at all.

 

The only effort you need to make is getting to know your tulpa by interacting with them.

You see, i have the exact same problem with puppeting as well, it's SO easy to fake their movements of the forms that i am unable to know when they are moving by themselves or not.

 

If this is too hard, narrate to them as if they were still non-vocal until they are vocal enough for you to know the difference.

For how long?? If even in 6 months they weren't able to improve on this...

 

My advice to the tulpa in question would be to experiment. Try a different mindvoice, try thinking of things your host isn't thinking about, try grabbing their attention when they're thinking of anything but you. I will note, it is incredibly hard at first, but it gets easier the more you get the hang of it, as with any skill.

Believe i have tried just about everything already, except threatning to start ignoring them.

 

Bottom line - effort. From both sides, Hope this helps.

Unfortunately it doesn't, BUT still thank you a lot for the intention!

 

Sorry if i sound pessimist here, but believe me, i am speaking the truth, i am tired of having faith in something that constantly indicates me it's not working, of course that like this the faith i have in this is constantly being harder and harder to have.

[Leaf]

I can somewhat sympathize although my case is slightly different and not as extreme. A lot of times I simulate conversations with people or even myself and as a result when I started on Rhia I found that a lot of responses came quickly but were the result of me "subconsciously" parroting. As a result I started expecting my mind to create her part of a conversation and assumed that any response that I expected was me and thus was parroting. A tulpa response may or may not be what is expected so you can't make an assumption that it is parroting. Because of this, it is very hard to know what is from a tulpa and what isn't. Of course it gets very frustrating and seems impossible after a few months. I know I have been working at it for probably about 6 months myself. In the end though, you just have to stop worrying and if it means forgetting about the whole issue for a few days or a week do it. Sometimes not thinking about something helps it develop more than trying to force it by intense concentration or constant thought. In my case I found that starting a forcing session with a brief meditation exercise helps a lot and I started accepting many responses and only excluded those that I knew 100% (and yes some parroting is more obvious than others) were parroting. If the responses started becoming way too expected I changed it up and expected something else. Over time its become much easier to distinguish between me and her. Fortunately for me (less for you) I found that I do not automatically create responses when actually talking to people and the biggest help has been to imagine her like a person (almost like semi-imposition) and hold a conversation like any other. Obviously everyone is different and before you respond saying I tried that, just realize that parroting will slow down the process, but doesn't mean that its not happening. Relax and try to enjoy the challenge of messing with your automatic responses and helping your tulpae develop rather than assume that all you try to do is messing it up or it is getting you nowhere. Above all keep an open mind and mood about it, getting frustrated and doubtful will certainly make it many times worse.

 

TL;DR: Don't worry and RELAX, it will work out if you have the patience and the right outlook. Good Luck.

 

Side Note: Rhia has been a huge help as well given her intense dislike for me freaking out about parroting; it's a team effort. :D

 

After posting I realized you would probably say that you don't expect the responses, its just natural. Ask yourself: is it really you? does it really matter? are there any differences in them? Hopefully you will figure it out. Also, I thought aspergers syndrome was nonvocal AD and you seem to be having vocal issues. Finally your way of thinking is irrelevant in my mind.

[garland]

I can somewhat sympathize although my case is slightly different and not as extreme. A lot of times I simulate conversations with people or even myself and as a result when I started on Rhia I found that a lot of responses came quickly but were the result of me "subconsciously" parroting. As a result I started expecting my mind to create her part of a conversation and assumed that any response that I expected was me and thus was parroting. A tulpa response may or may not be what is expected so you can't make an assumption that it is parroting. Because of this, it is very hard to know what is from a tulpa and what isn't. Of course it gets very frustrating and seems impossible after a few months. I know I have been working at it for probably about 6 months myself. In the end though, you just have to stop worrying and if it means forgetting about the whole issue for a few days or a week do it. Sometimes not thinking about something helps it develop more than trying to force it by intense concentration or constant thought. In my case I found that starting a forcing session with a brief meditation exercise helps a lot and I started accepting many responses and only excluded those that I knew 100% (and yes some parroting is more obvious than others) were parroting. If the responses started becoming way too expected I changed it up and expected something else. Over time its become much easier to distinguish between me and her. Fortunately for me (less for you) I found that I do not automatically create responses when actually talking to people and the biggest help has been to imagine her like a person (almost like semi-imposition) and hold a conversation like any other. Obviously everyone is different and before you respond saying I tried that, just realize that parroting will slow down the process, but doesn't mean that its not happening. Relax and try to enjoy the challenge of messing with your automatic responses and helping your tulpae develop rather than assume that all you try to do is messing it up or it is getting you nowhere. Above all keep an open mind and mood about it, getting frustrated and doubtful will certainly make it many times worse.

 

TL;DR: Don't worry and RELAX, it will work out if you have the patience and the right outlook. Good Luck.

 

Side Note: Rhia has been a huge help as well given her intense dislike for me freaking out about parroting; it's a team effort. :D

 

After posting I realized you would probably say that you don't expect the responses, its just natural. Ask yourself: is it really you? does it really matter? are there any differences in them? Hopefully you will figure it out. Also, I thought aspergers syndrome was nonvocal AD and you seem to be having vocal issues. Finally your way of thinking is irrelevant in my mind.

 

Atually this morning i had a kind of similar idea if you check my latest entry in the progress log! So far i am liking this new mindset and forcing method because i think i even started to hear conversations from my tulpas a few hours ago in my head while i was completly focusing on something else! (and yeah it definetly wasn't like simulation or parroting) BUT, this time i won't celebrate so soon because SO many times there was great progress and results, and almost 99% of the times it was a ONE TIME only results and then there was again several days and weeks of no progress again, so let's see if this repeats again.

 

But if this kind of mental voice i heared WAS really them, there's no doubt that the problem was indeed the massive pressure i was putting on them to talk, besides now i am forcing all EIGHT tulpas at the same time and giving the same nr of minutes of forcing, so far i got no indication that just forcing one tulpa for 2 hours a day and only 5m on the others made any difference at all so i will now force them less time a day but at least they will all have the same kind of attention.

 

Anyway now i am just asking them to talk when they want and when they feel ready, and i am now kinda forcing mostly by narration and using simbolism to feed "traits" to them related to independency AND combining this with intensive reiki healings on them as well with those kind of independency suggestions to them and my mind. Also i am avoiding any kind of visualization to their forms and asking them to talk since i want now to prevent puppeting and parroting at all costs, since after all, i did this ALL the time for MONTHS without realizing!! (and that's precisely when they started to not progress anymore)

[Guest Anonymous]

Well, looks like you are trying to convince yourself that your tulpas are you, in which case, be my guest. There's little to prove to someone who wants to believe in something.

[garland]

Well never mind that, i am now not worrying about subconcious parroting anymore, check my latest progress log entry : http://community.tulpa.info/thread-garland-s-8-tulpas-general-progress-log?pid=96935#pid96935

 

Yeah i know i am constantly changing methods, since so far the latest methods i used just almost had no results at all, while with this method i actually used for a few months seems to be the one that i have more surprising answers so it's quite possible the best one for me.

[Guest Anonymous]

I'm glad to see there's progress. Keep in mind that progress isn't the only thing you should worry about. Maybe you could try spending time with them without thinking about development so much. I know from personal experience that being treated as a research object does not feel nice.

[glitchthe3rd]

I also have Asperger's, and sometimes my youngest tulpa (Elise) will sound like she's swearing to me, but my other tulpas don't hear it and she denies doing it as well. I thought at first that my shadow was to blame, though this topic made me think it could be unconscious parroting.