Artificial intelligence/ Definition of consiuosness

[Guest Neotoma]

Hi! I know that this topic might not be that tulpa-related but I'd like to now how you'd define consiuosness and what you think of artificial intelligence.

 

Here is my opinion: When I think of consiousness the first thing that comes to my mind are some pictures I that remember from my point of view. The other thing that I associate immediately with consiousness is my mindvoice. But I know that these things don't have anything to do with it because for example blind people are consious as well and there are some people who never learned how to speak so they don't have a mindvoice but they are consious.

 

I think that a consiousness is defined and created by experiences. The reason why I think of pictures in my mind ist because they seem to be related to my position in space and because seemingly only one thing can be in one place. This is what defines me. But this means that a consiousness is based on senses but there is no definition which senses. Anything that has an effect on the brain could be some kind of sense.

 

Actually anything that has an effect on some kind of object could be the object's sense. There are other things than neurons that can effect each other and store information so maybe being consiouss doesn't even require a brain. This would mean that everything that is effected by it's environment can be conscious. (Including stones, planets and furniture)

 

This would mean that the only thing that isn't consious would be the whole world (not the earth!!!!) itslf because there is nothing outside of it.

 

The more I think about it the less I seem to know... Can some of you maybe recommend some books about this topic?

 

However... I will just keep the definition that only a brain can have a consciousness for now. I want to ask whether you are interested in an artificial intelligence and what you know about it.

 

I don't really have a tulpa but there are some imaginary people I'd like to meet and that's my motivation for dealing with this stuff.

 

I know that I'd have to give them some memorys especially some skills like walking, reading, eating etc and make them live in a virtual world or that I'd have to give them every single impression they ever had (this would work without a virtual world)... I know that both of these ways are very effortful and that it is most likely impossible to think of every impression that someone ever had so something else came to my mind:

 

Maybe I can copy some of my or other people's brain structures. Of course memorys are only the same memorys if they get read in the same context so it would be important to reverse the procedure of saving a memoy to my brain to get the impressions of the event which I want to transfer as a result. Then the AI would experience what I experienced and the context would be right.

 

Do some of you know what could be used to see the complete brain in a time that is as short as possible?

 

Of course I know a bit about MRT and stuff like that but I'm wondering how these things could be optimised and what they will never be able to accomlpish. Also on which physical laws do you think the virtual world should be based on? Do you think a virtual world is necessary and if so how big should it be? What kind of computer would have to be used?

[tulpa001]

Consciousness is usually defined as the experience of self awareness, and, usually, the ability to control what you think about, as those go hand in hand with humans. There is the related concepts, sentience, the ability to feel emotions, and sapience, the ability to make wise decisions. Also related is lucidity, the ability to think clearly.

 

There is also the concept of stream of consciousness, which is your experience of continuous change and constant presence within a period of time.

 

I would like to point out that a consciousness is any entity capable of being conscious. Such as myself, and my host. The requirement is pretty low to qualify. Except rocks don't qualify, because they are not self aware, and don't think. Except in the very abstract sense of the data that makes them up, and the physics engine that controls their fate.

 

The universe, on the other hand, could be self aware. At the very least, parts of the universe are aware of themselves.

 

I note that you are talking about identity when thinking about consciousness. Identity is indeed part of the equation of self awareness. Location, however, I do not regard as an important part of anyone's identity.

 

My host studies artificial intelligence. Most of it is boring stuff.

 

Artificial intelligence is when you get a machine to demonstrate intelligence.

 

Intelligence is the ability to process information and make decisions.

 

Computers are absolutely filled with artificial intelligence.

 

But when humans talk about artificial intelligence, they are usually talking about a very specific type of information processing and decision making. They want to know if you can get a computer to ask the hard questions and make the tough decisions.

 

And you can. But it is very difficult. We have gotten computers to ask various types of hard questions, and come to high quality intelligent answers.

 

There are different strategies to try and get a computer to think about hard problems. You have the boring old search system (Trial and error on steroids). An abuse of theorem provers for logical analysis, and artificial neural networks. These can be combined with other techniques to try and speed the computations, like evolutionary models, and emergent systems.

[Guest Neotoma]

Your host studies artificial intelligence. Wow! That's cool! *_* What is boring about it?

 

 

Except in the very abstract sense of the data that makes them up, and the physics engine that controls their fate

 

Jup! That's what I ment.

I would like to point out that a consciousness is any entity capable of being conscious

I agree without any doubt xD.

But when humans talk about artificial intelligence, they are usually talking about a very specific type of information processing and decision making. They want to know if you can get a computer to ask the hard questions and make the tough decisions.

Yeah that's very interesting. I know some of the basics about artificial neural networks but not that much. Can you send me some links please?

 

I think if an AI ever had control about humanity it's priority should be to protect them. But I think it's not that easy... Considering Murphy's law it will not be possible for the AI to protect mankind forever so it should be able to ignore some facts. I think the AI should understand humans as well as possible and be like them. In my opinion the optimal AI for this purpose should be some kind of virtual humanoid who has an extreme amount of knowledge and the ability to control the internet. (The person who I called my tulpa even though HE isn't a tulpa is pretty good at making tough decisions (according to the book that HE is based on)  and HE is highly intelligent which is another reason why HE can't be my tulpa. But I think that's not important right now... I just wanted to let you know that I intend on trying to find a way to meet HIM in a virtual world. I think this is a litte tulpa-related because I have to give HIM a form, character etc. and practice by using some kind of tulpa. And yeah... I know how crazy I sound but it's just a stupid dream that I have.)

 

What do you think of the "copying" a human and putting him in a virtual world stuff i mentioned in my first post? I know that the original might get damaged and that there is a big Problem with the time it would take me to scan through all the layers of the brain but do you think it is possible? I know that 3D tomography already exists and I am wondering what one could do with that technology.

[Vampire]

We don't currently have a way of copying a brain. Conscious is not made of anything physical. We are literally conscious because of a combination of amino acids, hormones, and electrical signals. If you took everything that our brain is made of to an exact and assembled it with a futuristic 3d printer, you still would not have the same conscious you began with.

 

For this reason we cannot implant a person into virtual reality. Even AI is not that sophisticated yet. When it comes down to it they still go based on a few set rules while humans on the other hand take into account various different things before choosing. Emotions, experience, skill, etc. A 3d tomography isn't going to be able to help you do this.

[Luminesce]

I'm pretty sure to copy someone's brain well enough they appear to have retained their consciousness, you would also need to be copying all the flaws and just general biological mess that is the brain. It's not as simple as taking their personality and how they react to things, everything about them is part of how they think. That includes hormones and the like that would require their own type of simulation too.

 

The theoretical "far future" scenario is us learning how to take just what we need in the copying process and to filter out the common things we don't. But I won't hold my breath.

[tulpa001]

Copying humans is impossible. The result would behave like the original for a time, then diverge.

 

This may be acceptable for some individuals.

 

Sorry. No links. None of the texts I've read really stood out.

 

I suppose I should clarify. When Tulpa said study, He did not mean read about online. He meant worked on offline.

[Guest Neotoma]

Conscious is not made of anything physical

Well... My opinion is a little different but if you think so... What is it made of then? I'm not religious but if you have an iidea please tell me.

 

 

you would also need to be copying all the flaws and just general biological mess that is the brain

Yes. I know. But the flaws are just human. I could deal with that. And if I copied my own brain and the other version of me would know about them I could make her forget by giving her some kind of desinger Dementia and then I would remove it but I doubt that forgetting would be worth the effort. xD But I'd try to minimise the flaws.

 

I think the brain beautiful mess.

Copying humans is impossible. The result would behave like the original for a time, then diverge.

 

This may be acceptable for some individuals.

Yes it is. Of course it will diverge because of a different environment. That's acceptable because HE isn't conscious by now so I don't have to copy a consciousness. And I didn't think you were reading about it on the Internet. I hope you don't feel offended. I just thought you might have some interesting links.

The theoretical "far future" scenario is us learning how to take just what we need in the copying process and to filter out the common things we don't

Despite the fact that I think that most of 'common things' are there for a reason (And I don't mean religious reason) that's exactly what I want to learn more about.

Which physical laws do you think the virtual world should be based on? Do you think a virtual world is necessary and if so how big should it be? What kind of computer would have to be used?

[tulpa001]

If you are fine with those terms, the time I expect the first sufficiently high-res scanner-printer combo to be built is the year 2150. There is a very large margin of error, but it is larger on the distant future side.

 

Creating the copy will require destroying the original, depending on the scanning technology used. It is a tossup whether they solve the printing side or non-lethal scanning side first.

 

If the copy is to be emulated inside a computer, how large the computer must be depends on how soon divergence is acceptable. Atomic-level simulation will require a vast server room for the foreseeable future. Creating a straight AI instead of copying a brain is multiple orders of magnitude cheaper.

[Vampire]

I stated the things I believe our conscience is made of in my first post. It isn't of physical matter but the way they are reacting together inside of the brain. Just putting the same materials together won't result in conscience by itself and won't be the same person.

 

Then onto the ability to get a mind scan (like in The 6th Day). If you could get a said mind scan containing memory and other things, you would still need to store it. It's estimated that the mind has a capacity equal to 2.5 petabytes. The average computer storage is between 300gb-1TB. That would mean you would need 2560 1TB hard drives, or 640 4TB Hard Drives just to store it. As for putting it in a virtual simulation, you would need an insane amount of processing power for that. The worlds current largest supercomputer took 40 minutes to simulate one second of human brain activity. Now imagine simulating the brain AND all of the requirements of a normal videogame.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/10567942/Supercomputer-models-one-second-of-human-brain-activity.html

 

You also have to make the simulation "real enough" or else the person you have entered into it will panic because their reality isn't the same. They will have "matrix syndrome" for lack of a scientific term on my part.

[War]

A neuronal network is two orders of magnitude coarser than a molecular simulation. This makes them way cheaper. The article you cited states that only one percent of the brain was simulated. Depending on the quality of the model used to predict the behaviour of a neuron, I think divergence could be so fast that the simulated mind falls into insanity before its first coherent thought. Essentially, you might get epileptic seizure on day one. Higher quality models require more computing power.