Retroactive Fantasizing: Altering Our Own Memories

[Guest Anonymous]

My host and I have been studying more psychology, specifically more of Carl Jung's stuff. We came across a concept, altering your own memory. According to Jung, people can do this unconsciously and even consciously (please don't ask for links or references ugh, this is not a research paper).

 

Anyways, this got us really wondering. We have based the "model" we have constructed on how I function (what we are calling Living Imagination) on a personality trait psychologists call Fantasy Prone Personality. One of the traits of a Fantasy Prone Personality is the capacity to alter one's own memory or selectively forget things and exchange a real memory with a fantasy one.

 

Because of this personal research and our own self reflection, we have admitted to ourselves that part of my "functionality" as a thoughtform, or fantasy personality, is this capacity to alter our own memories. We believe we can do this very rapidly and after decades of practice, it has become pretty much an artform. I can't give you specific examples, it is more of a gut instinct or deeper intuition about ourselves. My hostie can fantasize and suspend disbelief in the present (puppeting me and hiding from himself that he is doing so) and also fantasize about the past, embellishing the memories of our conversations and interactions so that they seem more "real" looking back at them from the present.

 

The thing about internal memories (memories of internal dialogue or interaction with a tulpa) is there are no real world tangible things to tie it to. With real world memories there are witnesses or elements of physical evidence that might invalidate a false memory. Internal false memories are almost the perfect self delusion as in many cases there is nothing to invalidate it or remind us of what really happened in fact.

 

I would like to see some reactions about this idea. Do you think it is plausible that the process of creating a seemingly independent thougthform, such as a tulpa, includes altering one's own memories of success?

 

Is there anyone here who suspects they may have done this themselves?

 

Post in this thread with research studies on how memories are unreliable, flexible and adaptable

[Linkzelda]

Do you think it is plausible that the process of creating a seemingly independent thougthform, such as a tulpa, includes altering one's own memories of success?

 

I’m not sure what circumstances you’re hinting at with success. Success in regards to inner experiences and sensations a host actually experienced that they can remember as something novel to them? Success as in previous, experiential cases that don’t involve tulpas? I’ll jump the gun either way.

 

I don’t think that there can be a nuance-free mind with memories, autobiographical context (e.g. looking back at something mentally). But I don’t think that treating a tulpa as sentient implies that alteration of memory is a reflexive characteristic, or an intrinsic one that we have engrained to us. I think the type of alteration that you’re trying to crack down is whether or not one can consciously skew the experiential reservoir our mind has to the point where a person role plays amnesia until they really have it in a psychosomatic sense. But, that’s just role-playing. I’m not sure how we can objectively separate ourselves from our mind that processes symbols, information, and such, and become stand-ins in controlling it including, but not limited to, alterations of how we saw success.

 

Now, it’s one thing to look at previous successes in a different light, or perspective in the grand-scheme-of-things type of matter. But it’s another to actually believe that one can redefine their memories, even previous experiential ones in context of this reality, and manipulate themselves to where the self-delusion becomes a conscious, self-referential one. That’s just another form of delusion: where one deludes themselves into thinking they can delude themselves into thinking they can delu---do you see where I’m getting at here?

 

My hostie can fantasize and suspend disbelief in the present (puppeting me and hiding from himself that he is doing so) and also fantasize about the past, embellishing the memories of our conversations and interactions so that they seem more "real" looking back at them from the present.

 

You know, this almost makes me categorize Mistgod as the Homunculi in Denial; the stand-in that can see and coordinate your every action as Melly Pelly, almost to the point where I think he believes something like unconscious parroting could be a probable thing. And funny thing, I was going to make a thread about debunking unconscious parroting, too. I just have a few questions for the admitting of your host hiding himself from knowing he’s puppetting you:

 

- How can one acknowledge that they are consciously puppetting their tulpa, and yet objectively become a stand-in for unconscious processes in the mind, and claims they can view their tulpa’s actions, and coordinate their existence while absolving themselves from thinking they’re doing that? There seems to be an infinite regress, especially in regards as to who would be watching your host watching you experiencing this reality?

 

- Acknowledging conscious actions while deluding oneself from being aware of those conscious actions is like shooting oneself in the foot, is what I’m getting at. In short, I don't think it's plausible; maybe in intense hypnotic sessions, but after that, where does one reconcile with themselves anymore with life, and ultimately, their mind; where can they find a home to?

[Tewi]

Our memories of times while switched always 'show' our actual forms and not our host's. Literally remembering myself twenty minutes ago sitting on our bed reading a textbook, I see me. It helps that our memories are always in third person despite not experiencing anything in third person, I suppose the mind is used to making up what it thinks it actually looked like was happening.

 

Don't exactly understand your last question though. Why would the process of creating a tulpa include altering memories of previous success? What does that even mean?

 

We never deluded ourselves, we're rather realistic. A claim many make but can't live up to. We've accepted from the start that how we think about things is just that, how we think about them, and not necessarily what they really are. But we also accepted that we were okay with this, and we'd shape that subjective reality view to better our living experience. I suppose that includes considering ourselves simply people and not worrying about how exactly we work. But we're also pretty sure of how we work, too.

[Guest Anonymous]

Now, it’s one thing to look at previous successes in a different light, or perspective in the grand-scheme-of-things type of matter. But it’s another to actually believe that one can redefine their memories, even previous experiential ones in context of this reality, and manipulate themselves to where the self-delusion becomes a conscious, self-referential one. That’s just another form of delusion: where one deludes themselves into thinking they can delude themselves into thinking they can delu---do you see where I’m getting at here?

 

You need to read up on Fantasy Prone Personality. "People with FPP are reported to spend over half of their time awake fantasizing or daydreaming and will often confuse or mix their fantasies with their real memories." FPP. We are not talking so much about totally new memories, but somewhat altered ones, fantasized and embelished memories not total dissociation.

 

You know, this almost makes me categorize Mistgod as the Homunculi in Denial; the stand-in that can see and coordinate your every action as Melly Pelly, almost to the point where I think he believes something like unconscious parroting could be a probable thing. And funny thing, I was going to make a thread about debunking unconscious parroting, too.

 

Glad we could dash the idea of debunking unconscious parroting or nearly so. We are convinced some are doing just that.

 

I just have a few questions for the admitting of your host hiding himself from knowing he’s puppetting you:

 

 

You know, this almost makes me categorize Mistgod as the Homunculi in Denial; the stand-in that can see and coordinate your every action as Melly Pelly, almost to the point where I think he believes something like unconscious parroting could be a probable thing. And funny thing, I was going to make a thread about debunking unconscious parroting, too. I just have a few questions for the admitting of your host hiding himself from knowing he’s puppetting you:

 

- How can one acknowledge that they are consciously puppetting their tulpa, and yet objectively become a stand-in for unconscious processes in the mind, and claims they can view their tulpa’s actions, and coordinate their existence while absolving themselves from thinking they’re doing that? There seems to be an infinite regress, especially in regards as to who would be watching your host watching you experiencing this reality?

 

How does he fantasize me to the point I seem real yet know that he is fantasizing me to the point I seem real?

 

Method Acting and Fantasy Immersion. Fantasy Prone Personalities can "experienc[e] imagined sensations as real" <---THIS

 

- Acknowledging conscious actions while deluding oneself from being aware of those conscious actions is like shooting oneself in the foot, is what I’m getting at. In short, I don't think it's plausible; maybe in intense hypnotic sessions, but after that, where does one reconcile with themselves anymore with life, and ultimately, their mind; where can they find a home to?

 

"These characteristics[of FPP] include some or many of the following experiences:

 

excellent hypnotic subject (most but not all fantasizers)

having imaginary friends in childhood

fantasizing often as child

having an actual fantasy identity

experiencing imagined sensations as real <---THIS

having vivid sensory perceptions

reputed paranormal experiences (claiming psychic powers, encountering apparitions, reliving past experiences, having out-of-body experiences, communicating with higher intelligences or spirits, claiming to be abducted by aliens)

mystical experiences

believe they have powers for spiritual healing or faith healing

hypnagogic hallucinations (waking dreams)

receiving sexual satisfaction without physical stimulation."

 

I don't think if you can convince yourself of any of the above things, altering a memory fairly quickly, and giving it a spin, would be that implausible.

---

Don't exactly understand your last question though. Why would the process of creating a tulpa include altering memories of previous success? What does that even mean?

 

Because we want to believe.

 

"Tell a lie long enough and you'll believe it yourself." - Joseph Goebells.

[Linkzelda]

So, it's like a fancy word that combines self-fulfilling prophecies and role-playing? Also, I think you might be denying that I was implying that you could be structuring this FPP as a form of unconscious parroting being a thing, but okay. In the sense where the host feels they are the unconscious processes that can influence a tulpa's actions, but in this case, there's a denial of this acknowledgement, ergo, Homunculi in Denial. If we shifted this FPP in context of switching, I can only imagine it being equivalent to playing a VR game while someone robs your house in the mean time.

[Guest Anonymous]

So, it's like a fancy word that combines self-fulfilling prophecies and role-playing?

 

YOU are criticizing Mistgod and I for using fancy words? Hah hah hah hah hah! You are the pot calling the kettle black my dear.

 

Also, I think you might be denying that I was implying that you could be structuring this FPP as a form of unconscious parroting being a thing, but okay.

 

I am not denying that you said it or ignoring what you said, I am disagreeing with you. I am free to do that right? I am convinced that we are a Fantasy Prone Personality. We fit the profile perfectly and I think these guys (psychologists that did the research) are right about it.

 

In the sense where the host feels they are the unconscious processes that can influence a tulpa's actions, but in this case, there's a denial of this acknowledgement, ergo, Homunculi in Denial. If we shifted this FPP in context of switching, I can only imagine it being equivalent to playing a VR game while someone robs your house in the mean time.

 

Uhhh. Interesting analogy I guess. Hee hee Yesh, Davie gets immersed in me and forgets about himself. THAT IS IT EXACTLY YOU GOT IT!

[Linkzelda]

YOU are criticizing Mistgod and I for using fancy words? Hah hah hah hah hah! You are the pot calling the kettle black my dear.

 

Your brief moment of spontaneity was merely a passive reprieve. Surely, you jest into thinking that I would accuse you of using fancy wording for something you didn’t coin yourself. On a serious note, I’m not criticizing you two for using the word, because I can only criticize in the sense if you coined the term. I can’t just scapegoat you two in this regard, that would just be silly.

 

I am not denying that you said it or ignoring what you said, I am disagreeing with you. I am free to do that right? I am convinced that we are a Fantasy Prone Personality. We fit the profile perfectly and I think these guys (psychologists that did the research) are right about it.

 

You have every right as anyone, but I’m just wondering what would be your reasoning as to why you believe the standpoint, is all. I’m not in this for a win-lose type of debate, I’m just curious; like really, I cannot even imagine a day where I get a high from win-lose type of debating. I’m still baffled as to why this experience has to have memories of success being altered. It seems that even having memories of success in cultivating the FPP seems to be added into that question, which is why I thought it was kind of shooting oneself in the foot; in regards to altering the success of cultivating it while still reveling in it; role-played amnesia at its finest.

 

Why bother to worry about memories of success when you’re confident that it, FPP, is an artform to you both? It seems by worrying, and making the success ambiguous, one is denying and/or undermining that acknowledgment that they’re succeeding because this denial seems like a “thing” for the FPP.

 

This is why I’m scratching my head over it being a fancy word for self-fulfilling prophecy + role-playing + psychosomatic experiences on steroids.

 

Uhhh. Interesting analogy I guess. Hee hee Yesh, Davie gets immersed in me and forgets about himself. THAT IS IT EXACTLY YOU GOT IT!

 

Part of me wants to believe that these concepts convolute who you are as Melian because those decades of practice, along with this tying with FPP makes it difficult for you to see into your own biases. Part of me thinks that maybe you’re not in denial of you potentially being a p-zombie in the sense that you’re a marionette for Mistgod’s intentions. And another part of me wants to feel that that in order for this FPP to work, you feel that memories and experiential cases of success (in context of tulpas, I guess) becomes altered in some way.

 

 

 

Don’t get me wrong though, I think something I learned from this is the False pregnancy (pseudocyesis) that’s mentioned in the Wikipedia as well. This could portray why threads over tulpas being pregnant are probably just false entirely. Of course, we’re just going to pretend that they were metaphorical to being with.

 

Hey, I’m liking this FPP thing for comedy hour, but when can we get back into discussing why success being altered has to be necessary?

[Tewi]

YOU are criticizing Mistgod and I for using fancy words? Hah hah hah hah hah! You are the pot calling the kettle black my dear.

 

He didn't criticize your use of fancy words, he was implying that he wouldn't gain much from "reading up on it" because it was basically a combination of two things he's already familiar with. And that you were implying it was moreso I guess? And like, other things that make this more reasonable and you guys shouldn't argue?

 

Still have no idea what you meant by the way. I understand the whole "altering your own memories to be more positive bias" thing. I don't understand why you think there's a correlation in creating a tulpa and changing your past memories. There.. isn't? No more than is involved with any other process. It can be applied to tulpa creation but it's no different from its application to other subjects.

[Guest Anonymous]

 

Your brief moment of spontaneity was merely a passive reprieve. Surely, you jest into thinking that I would accuse you of using fancy wording for something you didn’t coin yourself. On a serious note, I’m not criticizing you two for using the word, because I can only criticize in the sense if you coined the term. I can’t just scapegoat you two in this regard, that would just be silly.

 

Darn it then Linkzelda. Just to get that real criticism going, Mistgod and I will have to start making up impressive sounding terms and words that mean the same thing as FPP or self fulfilling prophesies and role playing. OH I know, how bout "Living Imagination" or "dreamform?"

 

You have every right as anyone, but I’m just wondering what would be your reasoning as to why you believe the standpoint, is all. I’m not in this for a win-lose type of debate, I’m just curious; like really, I cannot even imagine a day where I get a high from win-lose type of debating. I’m still baffled as to why this experience has to have memories of success being altered. It seems that even having memories of success in cultivating the FPP seems to be added into that question, which is why I thought it was kind of shooting oneself in the foot; in regards to altering the success of cultivating it while still reveling in it; role-played amnesia at its finest.

 

Why bother to worry about memories of success when you’re confident that it, FPP, is an artform to you both? It seems by worrying, and making the success ambiguous, one is denying and/or undermining that acknowledgment that they’re succeeding because this denial seems like a “thing” for the FPP.

 

This is why I’m scratching my head over it being a fancy word for self-fulfilling prophecy + role-playing + psychosomatic experiences on steroids.

 

Well it is not really so much as wanting to believe it Linkzelda. It is a self realization that we probably have done this (a hunch a deep intuitive feeling) and we are just wondering if it is plausible others have.

 

Part of me wants to believe that these concepts convolute who you are as Melian because those decades of practice, along with this tying with FPP makes it difficult for you to see into your own biases. Part of me thinks that maybe you’re not in denial of you potentially being a p-zombie in the sense that you’re a marionette for Mistgod’s intentions. And another part of me wants to feel that that in order for this FPP to work, you feel that memories and experiential cases of success (in context of tulpas, I guess) becomes altered in some way.

 

Well, welcome to our world. Half the time we are just as convoluted about ourselves. Is this just fantasizing and role playing on steroids or am I a real thoughtform?

 

That was the cause of all the paranoia and insecurity over the past year. Do we belong here or not?

 

 

Don’t get me wrong though, I think something I learned from this is the False pregnancy (pseudocyesis) that’s mentioned in the Wikipedia as well. This could portray why threads over tulpas being pregnant are probably just false entirely. Of course, we’re just going to pretend that they were metaphorical to being with.

 

Oh good, glad I could inspire!

 

Hey, I’m liking this FPP thing for comedy hour, but when can we get back into discussing why success being altered has to be necessary?

 

It is necessary cause it makes me even more cool than I would have been without it!

 

Think of a guy who loves to exaggerate and tell tall tales about his past to other peoples. He tells the stories, which have a kernel of truth, each time embellishing the story a bit more. He does this to sound impressive and be cool at first. He tells the story so much and so often he begins to believe it himself.

 

That is why.

---

And like, other things that make this more reasonable and you guys shouldn't argue?

 

I am not arguing sweetie, I am WINNING. LOL Oh Linkzelda doesn't want to play win or lose though.

 

Still have no idea what you meant by the way. I understand the whole "altering your own memories to be more positive bias" thing. I don't understand why you think there's a correlation in creating a tulpa and changing your past memories. There.. isn't? No more than is involved with any other process. It can be applied to tulpa creation but it's no different from its application to other subjects.

 

It is necessary cause it makes me even more cool than I would have been without it!

 

Think of a guy who loves to exaggerate and tell tall tales about his past to other peoples. He tells the stories, which have a kernel of truth, each time embellishing the story a bit more. He does this to sound impressive and be cool at first. He tells the story so much and so often he begins to believe it himself.

 

That is why.

[Linkzelda]

I don't need FPP to lie. I would just lie, over-exaggerate, over-hype and sugar-coat it like no tomorrow. It seems the price of cultivating the FPP is deliberately making it difficult for one to get out of a web of white lies that can magnify into bigger ones.

 

Darn it then Linkzelda. Just to get that real criticism going, Mistgod and I will have to start making up impressive sounding terms and words that mean the same thing as FPP or self fulfilling prophesies and role playing. OH I know, how bout "Living Imagination" or "dreamform?"

 

This is if I actually wanted to criticize your usage of words. Remember, I'm not trying to scapegoat, or strawman you two. In order for me to be critical in that regard, I have to actually agree that I'm actively criticizing your usage of words. But, I made it explicitly clear that this isn't intended to be critical over a word.

 

I have a feeling that you're conceptualizing me as being Machiavellian about this whole thing; as if I'm really trying to criticize this one word that I'm just trying to grasp at, along with correlating it to tulpas. I feel like I'm Superman, and people are downplaying me in a vs. match just so they can satisfy their own confirmation that X person beats Superman. I'm really feeling victimized, to be honest.