Prayer Struggle

[GrayTheCat]

For awhile now, I am really struggling over the idea if I should believe in God or not. One of the main issues I feel is being able to effectively communicate and pray to God. Am I even capable of comfortably praying to God?

 

Most of the moments that have felt the most supernatural / divine occurred when I was talking to a spontaneous thoughtform in the wonderland. However, the last time I tried to talk to God I realized It wasn't him. I decided to keep the thoughtform and name him Chrome. I can still talk to him, but I know that he isn't actually God despite having a more God-like presence.

 

Is it simply impossible to talk to God like this? Do I have to pray into a void and expect no presence from him? The last thing I want to do is repeat my mistake and create another Gray like Chrome, but talking to a void feels extremely unsatisfying and will feel fake at best.

 

(2/10/20) Note from the future- I figured out Chrome is a tulpa around June 2019. My headmates also do not like being referred to that way, please call them tulpas. -Cat

Edited February 10, 2021 by Cat_ShadowGriffin

[Luminesce]

I believe everyone experiences prayer differently, the most common experience being nothing at all, other than whatever feeling of comfort accompanies the belief that God's heard your prayers. While some people believe they hear from God (or likely "hear" tulpish responses, even), it's not something that's widely discussed in at least Christianity.

 

The religion doesn't want you to ask questions or share your experiences, it wants you to believe what you're told is true, so this sort of information isn't shared between them very much. And if they do share, if their experiences don't line up to the most orthodox answer they'll probably be told to believe otherwise than what they experienced. It's a very orderly system of propagating the same beliefs for many hundreds of years.

 

You don't have to believe in (a) God if you don't want to. The only thing you stand to lose is your soul or whatever. Which we have proof you'll never know for sure you've done, until you die. So if you're the logical type - don't be, because according to Christianity you can't rely on logic to know if it's all true or not. That's kind of the only reason Christianity has stood up to more scientific-mindedness over the years. "We know this isn't true" - "Actually, you can't know, and if you disbelieve you'll suffer for longer than is humanly conceivable for it"

 

Personally, I'd go against such an unjust Creator just for putting me in such a situation. If He wants my faith, He should give me an obvious sign that can't be chalked up to random thoughts or what other people say. As far as I'm concerned, I'd just be being faithful to random humans, not any God. I live by my own truths, confident that I will either be in great standing with a higher power when I die for doing my best to improve the livelihoods of all those around me - or that our God is an unjust God and even if I'm punished, what I stood for was more just than that God. And then I'd burn in hell for forever or something, y'know? Can't know.

[Guest LanceReilyn]

Well.. You didn't specify but all I can tell you about is the Judeo/Christian God. I'm not looking to get into a debate/argument, just explain a generalized protestant perspective.

 

This is going to get quite a bit preachy so I'm just going to toss it in a hidden tag. I'm not looking to piss off any of Reilyn's friends, just answering a question with what I know.

 

[hidden]Faith is required. According to the Bible, God knows what all His creations do and think at all times, there is no need to wave your arms around or go into a church or take a special posture/stance to give Him some kind of idea you are speaking directly to Him, He already knows. Calling out to Him, kneeling or going before an altar, closing eyes, folding hands, etc are just symbols of humility or respect and if someone thinks they mean anything else to God, it becomes empty hypocrisy. He hears all prayers. He is under no obligation to answer prayers to those who reject Him or His Son however.

 

Part of learning to have a strong prayer life is learning that the whole point of Him having a presence here, of leaving believers here instead of just taking them the moment they become saved, is to glorify His name and be used as tools to reach out towards those that don't believe. We walk through a daily struggle, called sanctification, a process in which God gradually allows tests and trials to come before us that make us stronger, reaching towards perfection bit by bit by overcoming the temptations of the world. It ends when a person dies and their soul is set free from their sinful flesh. Prayer is not only a tool for talking with God but it is also there as a test. We are commanded to pray and commanded to believe. It's part of casting aside the ways and assumptions of the world, learning to reject it and follow Him. To believers, praying to God and having it answered (especially when we remember to be grateful to Him for it ;P ) is a strong reinforcement. A history of answered prayer can sit in a believer's mind and be a strong shield against doubt. It's all about glorifying Him, not Him being some kind of genie in a lamp that we rub and demand wishes and goodies from.

 

A Christian who thinks things aren't real unless they feel some fuzzy warm presence or something is walking a dangerous path of constantly questioning and doubting the Bible (and by extension, the God who wrote it using people as tools) and trying to constantly find subjective evidence that can change at any moment. Prayer and miracles aren't really for unbelievers to suddenly believe. Jesus himself commented that people will not be "made" to believe, even should the dead be raised right in front of them. If they don't want to come willingly, they will be "made" to believe when the die and face judgement.[/hidden]

[GrayTheCat]

I believe everyone experiences prayer differently, the most common experience being nothing at all, other than whatever feeling of comfort accompanies the belief that God's heard your prayers. While some people believe they hear from God (or likely "hear" tulpish responses, even), it's not something that's widely discussed in at least Christianity.

 

The religion doesn't want you to ask questions or share your experiences, it wants you to believe what you're told is true, so this sort of information isn't shared between them very much. And if they do share, if their experiences don't line up to the most orthodox answer they'll probably be told to believe otherwise than what they experienced. It's a very orderly system of propagating the same beliefs for many hundreds of years.

 

You don't have to believe in (a) God if you don't want to. The only thing you stand to lose is your soul or whatever. Which we have proof you'll never know for sure you've done, until you die. So if you're the logical type - don't be, because according to Christianity you can't rely on logic to know if it's all true or not. That's kind of the only reason Christianity has stood up to more scientific-mindedness over the years. "We know this isn't true" - "Actually, you can't know, and if you disbelieve you'll suffer for longer than is humanly conceivable for it"

 

Personally, I'd go against such an unjust Creator just for putting me in such a situation. If He wants my faith, He should give me an obvious sign that can't be chalked up to random thoughts or what other people say. As far as I'm concerned, I'd just be being faithful to random humans, not any God. I live by my own truths, confident that I will either be in great standing with a higher power when I die for doing my best to improve the livelihoods of all those around me - or that our God is an unjust God and even if I'm punished, what I stood for was more just than that God. And then I'd burn in hell for forever or something, y'know? Can't know.

 

I'm feeling the same kind of problem. I want to talk to God because I refuse to believe the Bible is purely God's word. Even if it started out that way, it was re-translated too many times and only some hand-picked Gospels by humans were added to it. If God supports all of us and our sins, then is God even a morally just God?

 

I agree that the whole "human middle man" thing needs to be taken out entirely, or I would be believing in the middle man (people) and not God.

 

 

Mostly though I'm just tired of being so freakin confused. If God wants my faith, he needs to show me he has faith in me and give me a clear sign or I won't have any faith my voice was even heard.

---

Well.. You didn't specify but all I can tell you about is the Judeo/Christian God. I'm not looking to get into a debate/argument, just explain a generalized protestant perspective.

 

This is going to get quite a bit preachy so I'm just going to toss it in a hidden tag. I'm not looking to piss off any of Reilyn's friends, just answering a question with what I know.

 

[hidden]Faith is required. According to the Bible, God knows what all His creations do and think at all times, there is no need to wave your arms around or go into a church or take a special posture/stance to give Him some kind of idea you are speaking directly to Him, He already knows. Calling out to Him, kneeling or going before an altar, closing eyes, folding hands, etc are just symbols of humility or respect and if someone thinks they mean anything else to God, it becomes empty hypocrisy. He hears all prayers. He is under no obligation to answer prayers to those who reject Him or His Son however.

 

Part of learning to have a strong prayer life is learning that the whole point of Him having a presence here, of leaving believers here instead of just taking them the moment they become saved, is to glorify His name and be used as tools to reach out towards those that don't believe. We walk through a daily struggle, called sanctification, a process in which God gradually allows tests and trials to come before us that make us stronger, reaching towards perfection bit by bit by overcoming the temptations of the world. It ends when a person dies and their soul is set free from their sinful flesh. Prayer is not only a tool for talking with God but it is also there as a test. We are commanded to pray and commanded to believe. It's part of casting aside the ways and assumptions of the world, learning to reject it and follow Him. To believers, praying to God and having it answered (especially when we remember to be grateful to Him for it ;P ) is a strong reinforcement. A history of answered prayer can sit in a believer's mind and be a strong shield against doubt. It's all about glorifying Him, not Him being some kind of genie in a lamp that we rub and demand wishes and goodies from.

 

A Christian who thinks things aren't real unless they feel some fuzzy warm presence or something is walking a dangerous path of constantly questioning and doubting the Bible (and by extension, the God who wrote it using people as tools) and trying to constantly find subjective evidence that can change at any moment. Prayer and miracles aren't really for unbelievers to suddenly believe. Jesus himself commented that people will not be "made" to believe, even should the dead be raised right in front of them. If they don't want to come willingly, they will be "made" to believe when the die and face judgement.[/hidden]

 

Thank you for posting. That was really helpful.

 

I'll admit it, I have personal beef with Him. When I felt the most alone and depressed I feel like Ranger saved me, not God. For that reason, I feel skeptical towards faith and honoring his word. It does make sense that he would be like, "Bleh, non-believer, I'm not talking to you." I am open for God claiming credit for sending Ranger to me, but I want a clear sign and I don't want to end up being left in the unknown guessing.

 

Honestly, I don't want to believe in a God who is willing to cast me aside if I have to remain this conflicted about my belief for the rest of my life. I think it's unfair to assume he isn't real or anything like that, but I will see him as "someone else's God".

 

If something changes, then I'm open to re-examining my decisions. I'm still really young and I feel like faith is just one of those things you have to ask questions about for a long time.

 

EDIT: Sorry, I double-posted. If a moderator reads this please merge this post with my previous post. Thank you.

[Luminesce]

Eh, they're two completely different posts on different things with good substance. It's not a problem, the double posting rule exists to prevent congestion, and this isn't congestion.

 

Anyways, faith is unfortunately something you need to not ask questions about. I can tell you right now you have two choices: Believe, and ignore all doubts. Or, only believe what is self-evident and true for you. Either side has plenty of people who will support you. Christianity/similar religions treat those who are devout very well. Atheists also treat ""converts"" well, too, often driven simply by the fact that we're all human trying to make it through life together. I don't specifically believe in any sort of god because I've asked for and received zero response in any forms, despite being so open to them, and as with you, I feel it's my tulpas that helped me through my hard times. They struggled through those hard times with me.

 

But I have to admit, as Lance just said, the point isn't for you to have God proven to you. It's to go through all of these tests still believing in Him no matter what doubts come to mind.

 

Personally I just see that as a logical trap to keep people believing in a religion made to control a long-defunct society. I'm just discussing the subject politely is all. But as I said earlier, logic isn't something you can argue against religion with. You just have to choose which you prefer to believe. That with proof, or that with possible circumstances for going against it. By all means I recommend living by your own truths and simply being a good person, because no just God would punish you for that. If the modern day idea of God is real, He would be fine with that. But if the God spoken of in the bible is true to its word, it's a dang cruel, unfair and honestly arbitrary God not worth following. If anything, I recommend the middle path, of doing what you think is right and what you think God would want you to do - and not following the doctrines suggested by the bible, which honestly have got to be pretty corrupted as mentioned by this point in human history. Believing everything stayed perfectly as-was over these last, what, two thousand years? is honestly a little stupid. But there's no "better" indisputable source of what you should be listening to than the current bible(...s). Unless you believe logic or "what feels right" to be a better source, as I sure do.

[Guest]

I've had some really tough times in my life as most of you know. Being raised Catholic only gave be a foundation of belief and understanding, but that foundation doesn't have meaning without faith. I extensively studied religious texts, and i found most of them contradictory and overly dogmatic but at the same time subjective and personal. In other words, you can argue within a wide birth of belief and still be technically Catholic.

 

I don't consider myself Catholic. Though Ashley says she is, she's shy about talking about it. Her point is that it's vested cannon and mostly consistent. My beliefs are shattered and fragmented. Islands of Catholicism still remain. Without going into my beliefs, i do prey, i do still feel there is value in that, but i have no ritual. I speak to 'god' but i don't ever expect any sign in return. Simply that if i have a minute to spare and can do nothing else to help, why not.

 

I see a choice, believe in god or don't, but i use this analogy. Differential equations often contain the origin as a solution or zero. This particular solution is sometimes called the null set. Believing in god isn't about finding valid solutions to complex differential equations. Just believing that there is a valid solution other than the null set is enough. You may search your whole life without finding a solution, but i chose to believe one exists. Because i'd rather search than be content with a meaningless result such as the null set.

 

I do not judge others for their choice, nor do i believe they will be left behind. We are all covered, so whatever you choose, just try to have a peaceful and just life if you can. If you can't then again, don't worry. I am no better than you, you are no closer to god than me.

 

If you want answers from god, that's another story. These answers, they say, are within you. It will be your own personal struggle, no one is right or wrong, because no one can know the absolute truth.

[Ember.Vesper]

I’m very sorry, Cat. I don’t have an easy or comfortable answer to your difficulty. It’s probably much harder for those of us whose minds are practised at division to correctly identify God’s voice. Many subjective religious experiences probably arise from similar psychological mechanisms to those responsible for tulpas. And even from the Lord’s prophets we hear:

 

‘Truly, You are a God who hides Himself, O God of Israel, Savior!’ - Isaiah 45:15

 

But I still believe. My faith tradition doesn’t rely heavily on personal religious experiences. I rely on the Bible for guidance much more than on the Holy Spirit, and if I did feel led by the Holy Spirit, the leading would still need to be checked for consistency with the Bible.

 

The religion doesn't want you to ask questions or share your experiences, it wants you to believe what you're told is true, so this sort of information isn't shared between them very much.

 

I have great respect for you and your system, Lumi, but this is not the Christianity I know. Charismatic faith traditions heavily emphasize sharing personal experiences, sometimes even to the detriment of Scripture. Evangelical traditions also encourage personal experiences with and personal connection to God. Mainline Protestant traditions are usually very open to questioning and discourage members from 'checking their brains at the door'. The entire field of apologetics is about engaging with matters of faith in a rational, logical, and evidence-based way.

 

If anyone is interested, for a modern layman's introduction to apologetics, I recommend the works of Lee Strobel.

 

-Vesper

[Guest]

Lumi's experience does match well with my brief and feeble attemp at sharing christian experiences with a devout group of Catholics (among other groups) on multiple occasions. Perhapse we both just had bad luck. There is dogma, it's generally frowned apon to question it around firm believers.

[Luminesce]

I have great respect for you and your system, Lumi, but this is not the Christianity I know.

 

My first thought reading this, "Well it sure is the Christianity I know." You always hear about these nice Christian families that are open to new ideas and simply encourage keeping Jesus in your life and all...

 

Actually, I might've been swayed by living around too many Mormons for far too long. Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of relatively annoying devout Christians out there I couldn't stand to be in the same room as. But, after thinking about it a little, I realized I was really thinking of Mormons and not Christians for the most part. The ratio of Christians being close-minded and hard to interact with when ~atheist is much, much lower than with Mormons. Great people, them - but they live in a box mentally as far as I'm concerned. It works for them. They really are nice people. But everything feels so surface-level interacting with them..

[GrayTheCat]

I had a chance to think about it and I have come to the conclusion that (the Christian) God is a silent God. If I were to pray to him, I should not expect a response in the form of presence or literal talking. This isn't a bad thing, it just is what it is.

 

While a little disappointing, I'm glad that if I ever create any "God thoughtforms" I know it's not God trying to talk to me and I no longer need to worry about the idea of ignoring him in this manner. I still need time to think about what path I will follow, but I feel fairly resolved over this issue.

 

Thank you everybody for responding. I really appreciate it.