I Keep Slipping Out of the Front?

[TurboSimmie]

Hello!

 

So, in the last few months I've been practicing switching with my host Phil. As long as there's not too much brain fog I'm able to switch in without too much trouble. However, I have problems staying in the front. I have to keep up a pretty much constant monologue to affirm my status as the one in front, and if I stop for too long, I find I've slid right out of the front and Phil has taken back over. I can regain the front from there usually, but it's annoying to have to constantly struggle to have it. It's not that Phil doesn't trust me or doesn't want me to front. On the contrary, he loves it when I switch and he wants me to get better at it! But he almost never stops being active, and he very often just pushes me out of the front with his overactive mind without meaning to. On a few occasions I've been able to stay switched in for close to two hours. But usually it's a struggle to maintain more than about half an hour without having to battle to stay in. Anyone have any advice for how to stay more firmly switched in?

[Ranger]

Interesting, not everyone reports this after learning how to switch.

 

You may want to consider the mindset of sensory based switching. When I was struggling to learn how to switch, I assumed that switching was purely about controlling the body. It can be for some, but this is not our experience with our switching. When we switch, I am becoming connected to the front in such a way I become the dominant personality. When I zone out, I'm still connected to the body, so I don't go inactive and lose control.

 

I found suscuss with switching after trying my Consent, Affirm, Associate approach. In short, we took the time to dissociate, exchange consent, have whoever is switching in affirm they are switched-in, and then the switching in headmate would take a moment to associate with their surroundings. The order of these steps doesn't really matter, but having all of these steps present in some way, shape, or form tends to help. Wonderland visualizations are enough to trigger dissociation (and even then dissociation may not be necessary). Changing the wonderland mind camera to your perspective may help a lot too. Affirmation is telling yourself statements like, "I am Simmie", "I am the host", "I am one with the body", etc. or any statements that make you feel more present and connected with the body. Feel free to take your time with these. Finally, association is paying attention to your surroundings and thinking about the sensory experience you have. I like to touch my clothes, feel my hands, etc. I may spend more or less time with each step depending on how comfortable I feel.

 

After a switching attempt, I recommend hanging out for at least 30 minutes before waking up Phil. If you let Phil in too early, he may accidentally pop back in. Since you guys have experience with possession, Phil may not be locked out of moving the body (despite being bad at possession Gray never struggled with moving initially). Additionally, sensory switching can be subtle and it may take time to notice how things are different. Try interacting with your surroundings and doing mindless activities like cleaning. However, some have found switching to be a very different experience.

 

It may take time before you can remain switched-in for really long periods of time. If Phil seems to "pop-in", don't panic. This will feel different from Phil bleeding through like he's doing right now, and the solution is to do a switching correction (a couple affirmation statements are good enough). Eventually, Phil won't accidentally pop in anymore (unless you set up your switching to be more fluid, then things may get blendy and more messy). You may or may not feel a leftover "force" of you trying to keep Phil at bay. I certainly did at least, but this goes away with time too.

 

Once you get the feel for sensory switching and/or link it to moving around in the front, you won't need to repeat all of these steps every time. We prefer to do our switching ritual every time because we want moving around in the front to be strictly a possession experience instead of a switching experience, we like that our switching is strictly consent based, and we don't struggle with blending the same way other systems typically do.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Ranger

[Ice909]

Janey: Oh hey, we have like, the exact same issue! Wow! I'll give my experiences before reading Ranger's response-- 

How we originally achieved switching was through Perfect Possession, and one of the main goals of such was to keep the tulpas fronting by having them constantly talking with each other, going back and forth, almost like narration when you first are making a tulpa. That works well enough when doing something stimulating but not requiring anything from us, for example, we first utilized perfect possession at theme parks on the roller coasters, because there're very stimulating and require literally nothing from us. Compare this to when we've tried to use Perfect Possession while ice skating, and you get very different results. As you experience, Simmie, hostie would up and resume fronting very quickly, because the concentration required for affirmations is a great mental burden, and the concentration required for ice skating, even just gliding and not hitting anything, is also a great mental burden. The brain can't handle it all, so it focuses on what the physical body is doing most. I don't know how, but it's like the muscle memory for ice skating is tied to Bryan, in a sense. Similarly, the "muscle memory" for getting out of bed is seemingly tied to Layy, since he often helps Bry get out of bed in the mornings. Whenever we get out of bed, Layy ends up taking the front for all of a few moments, before Bryan resumes it. This makes it much harder to even rely on muscle memory to take over the body during the affirmations stage of switching. We, ah, haven't exactly thought of a solution for this. We've more-less just been trying to be a lot looser with the front, if that makes sense, with us "switching" very frequently for very short periods of time, and also much less formally. Whether or not it's actual switching or just fronting is arbitrary. We think it serves as good practice for more structured switches in the future all the same. 

 

Now, allow me to read what dear Ranger put. 

On 3/22/2022 at 3:40 PM, Ranger said:

I found suscuss with switching after trying my Consent, Affirm, Associate approach. In short, we took the time to dissociate, exchange consent, have whoever is switching in affirm they are switched-in, and then the switching in headmate would take a moment to associate with their surroundings. The order of these steps doesn't really matter, but having all of these steps present in some way, shape, or form tends to help. Wonderland visualizations are enough to trigger dissociation (and even then dissociation may not be necessary). Changing the wonderland mind camera to your perspective may help a lot too. Affirmation is telling yourself statements like, "I am Simmie", "I am the host", "I am one with the body", etc. or any statements that make you feel more present and connected with the body. Feel free to take your time with these. Finally, association is paying attention to your surroundings and thinking about the sensory experience you have. I like to touch my clothes, feel my hands, etc. I may spend more or less time with each step depending on how comfortable I feel.

 

Oh lol we already do this and it doesn't quite help unfortunately :(( it's short lived bc anything that requires the body to act results in Bryan's half-present ass to take control. We theorize that it might have something to do with Esper, Bryan's "other half" being sub-rep, whom perhaps is acting as an "anchor" of sorts to the front, just as the Slave in Perfect Possession is. I would put more regarding this, but it's specific enough to us and no one else really to not be relevant here. 

 

Regarding everything else, see above. As in, that stuff doesn't work very well. We struggle a bit with blending, especially Emily, Bryan, and I, which leads to the aforementioned less formal pseudo-switching that happens somewhat commonly. I don't have much more to add though, my bad. Good luck!!!!!!! 

[TurboSimmie]

Thanks for the responses! 😁 I've been thinking about Ranger' reply for a few days, and right when I come to respond Janey replies as well!

 

On 3/22/2022 at 6:40 PM, Ranger said:

You may want to consider the mindset of sensory based switching. When I was struggling to learn how to switch, I assumed that switching was purely about controlling the body. It can be for some, but this is not our experience with our switching. When we switch, I am becoming connected to the front in such a way I become the dominant personality. When I zone out, I'm still connected to the body, so I don't go inactive and lose control.

 

I'll make a note to specifically look into "sensory based switching". I used to have a body-centric idea of switching too back when I was confused as to the difference between possession and switching. Now I focus on being the "dominant personality".

 

On 3/22/2022 at 6:40 PM, Ranger said:

 

I found suscuss with switching after trying my Consent, Affirm, Associate approach. In short, we took the time to dissociate, exchange consent, have whoever is switching in affirm they are switched-in, and then the switching in headmate would take a moment to associate with their surroundings.

 

I remember you making a post about this a while ago! I should look for it (unless you can link it!). We do a variation of this but I think I may want to try out your whole ritual, or something close to it. We do use affirmations very strongly. I say "I am Simmie" when I switch in and also when I feel my need to affirm my control. Sometimes I'll expand the affirmation and say "I am Simmie and I am in control" or something like that. We've never really focused on dissociation much and maybe that's a key part of the problem.

 

On 3/22/2022 at 6:40 PM, Ranger said:

After a switching attempt, I recommend hanging out for at least 30 minutes before waking up Phil. If you let Phil in too early, he may accidentally pop back in. Since you guys have experience with possession, Phil may not be locked out of moving the body (despite being bad at possession Gray never struggled with moving initially). Additionally, sensory switching can be subtle and it may take time to notice how things are different. Try interacting with your surroundings and doing mindless activities like cleaning. However, some have found switching to be a very different experience.

 

This is very interesting to me; so you're saying that my switching in should put Phil into dormancy? Because up until now he never goes away. His mind is always racing and that's part of the problem. Very often when I'm switched in I'll still let Phil handle the "gross" things (blowing his nose, spitting, etc), maybe I should get over myself and own those things too. I like the idea of switching in and cleaning though. That was actually one of my main motivations to learn switching in the first place!

 

On 3/22/2022 at 6:40 PM, Ranger said:

It may take time before you can remain switched-in for really long periods of time. If Phil seems to "pop-in", don't panic. This will feel different from Phil bleeding through like he's doing right now, and the solution is to do a switching correction (a couple affirmation statements are good enough). Eventually, Phil won't accidentally pop in anymore (unless you set up your switching to be more fluid, then things may get blendy and more messy). You may or may not feel a leftover "force" of you trying to keep Phil at bay. I certainly did at least, but this goes away with time too.

 

That's interesting to know that it's going to feel completely different (popping in vs bleeding through). We've had some problems with blending lately (we call them Teal Moments and they've been on the rise as of late) but we want to renew our focus on separation and make our switching much more cut-and-dry and less fluid. I'm glad I now know what to expect when it starts to work!

 

Thank you for all that help Ranger! I'm going to read Janey's response now, but this will be a first-time reaction unlike Ranger's post I had a few days to think about:

 

40 minutes ago, IceCreeper909 said:

Janey: Oh hey, we have like, the exact same issue! Wow!

 

I'm glad I'm not alone in this!

 

40 minutes ago, IceCreeper909 said:

How we originally achieved switching was through Perfect Possession, and one of the main goals of such was to keep the tulpas fronting by having them constantly talking with each other, going back and forth, almost like narration when you first are making a tulpa. That works well enough when doing something stimulating but not requiring anything from us, for example, we first utilized perfect possession at theme parks on the roller coasters, because there're very stimulating and require literally nothing from us. Compare this to when we've tried to use Perfect Possession while ice skating, and you get very different results.

 

I remember reading about your Perfect Possession practice! It sounded good, though it seemed to require two tulpas working together and there's only me, so it's not something I could have ever used. But I do see parallels--the dialogue between two of your system had the same function as my monologuing; that being a method of keeping me associated with the front. I think we've both seen the pitfalls of this approach though.

 

42 minutes ago, IceCreeper909 said:

As you experience, Simmie, hostie would up and resume fronting very quickly, because the concentration required for affirmations is a great mental burden, and the concentration required for ice skating, even just gliding and not hitting anything, is also a great mental burden. The brain can't handle it all, so it focuses on what the physical body is doing most. I don't know how, but it's like the muscle memory for ice skating is tied to Bryan, in a sense. Similarly, the "muscle memory" for getting out of bed is seemingly tied to Layy, since he often helps Bry get out of bed in the mornings. Whenever we get out of bed, Layy ends up taking the front for all of a few moments, before Bryan resumes it. This makes it much harder to even rely on muscle memory to take over the body during the affirmations stage of switching. We, ah, haven't exactly thought of a solution for this. We've more-less just been trying to be a lot looser with the front, if that makes sense, with us "switching" very frequently for very short periods of time, and also much less formally. Whether or not it's actual switching or just fronting is arbitrary. We think it serves as good practice for more structured switches in the future all the same. 

 

Yeah, I think of it as the brain being a processor that's limited to how much it can do at once, and like you said, a sufficiently mentally-involved task will kick me right out of the front if I still need a high amount of brainpower to constantly affirm myself as the fronter. For us luckily muscle memory is mostly associated with BodyOS, or "Graybrain", we like to call it, meaning either of us have equal access to it and it can theoretically even run without either of our input, though in practice it still needs one of our inputs for decision-making. But you have something that's very similar to our concept of who "owns" what. Like you have Layy tied to the waking-up process and Bryan tied to other things. There are certain things that are entirely Phil's domain--largely video games that I have no interest in--but not much belongs entirely to me. Maybe that's something to change! I actually wish to go in the opposite direction as you when it comes to switching; I want to make it more formal not less. But I don't think either approach is better or worse, it just depends on the results you want.

 

Thank you, you've both given me a lot to think about! 😁

[Ranger]

16 hours ago, IceCreeper909 said:

Oh lol we already do this and it doesn't quite help unfortunately :((

 

I think this is very interesting and very important feedback. I have found telling people about CAA to help them switch, but I don't know if this helps them achieve sensory based switching or not. I simply assumed it did and never thought to question it until now.

 

My new theory is you do need CAA in some form (the order and style doesn't matter), but you have to have the right mindset to execute it. What the "right mindset" is boils down to what works for you, not someone else. There could be some mindsets about switching you guys have holding you back, or it could be your understanding of how switching works doesn't allow for the switched-in headmate to go quiet and zone out. I'm more inclined to believe the former, I needed to resolve roadblock assumptions myself before I could switch.

 

16 hours ago, TurboSimmie said:

I'll make a note to specifically look into "sensory based switching". I used to have a body-centric idea of switching too back when I was confused as to the difference between possession and switching. Now I focus on being the "dominant personality".

 

A couple missteps on my part there-

 

First, "sensory-based switching" is what I want to call the experience of switching where the tulpa is closely connected to the body's senses. If you search for that exact wording, you may find more of my posts. However, if you search for switching and sensory or senses, etc., you may get better results.

 

Second, I said "dominant personality", which is confusing because I use dominant to describe a different experience from our system. Yuka called me out for this and I still haven't figured out how to separate the three (but sometimes four) experiences I mention:

 

1) Being the dominant headmate as I defined in my (rough) possession guide is to be the headmate taking up the most resources and doing the majority of the thinking. A dominant headmate is typically thinking about something or responding to another headmate. However, being dominant doesn't tell you what state the headmate is in. For example, Gray can be focused on a train of thought while switched-in, Blue can be thinking about something while possessing, and Chrome could be talking to me while he's in the back. Gray, Blue, and Chrome are all dominant, but their actual positions are different. As an important side note, being dominant makes it much easier if not possible to full-body possess, so it's important for Blue to be dominant while controlling the body. However, Gray does not have to be dominant to remain switched-in. He can go really quiet and still be in the front.

 

2) Being the headmate who is switched-in. We see this as being connected to the front and typically the first or main personality on the receiving end of the body's sensory experiences, whether they want to be or not. However, what a "switched-in" headmate means could mean lots of things based on how switching is defined.

 

3) Being the headmate who (regularly) wakes up in the morning. This one is weird because I imply they're switched-in, but this can be achieved by a headmate who possesses a lot (i.e. almost all day) for a long period of time. I used this in our bad "9 hour rule" until we realized it doesn't really matter and typically once someone has been switched-in for a couple days they will be the one to wake up the next morning. And this can be thrown off by dreaming...

 

4) The headmate who is the default dreamer. I don't usually talk about this and I don't really know how this works. Iirc, I believe Miichu is the default dreamer but I'm not sure how she did it aside from being switched-in for so long. Gray is typically the default dreamer, but every now and then I front in dreams. Dreams are very messy because we don't follow our switching rules in dreams unless we're stressed out and/or become aware of them.

 

I believe the mindset of becoming the "dominant personality"* works the way you understand the asterisk giving it important context. If you believe the dominant personality is the one who is doing the majority of the thinking and that is how you define switching, then it is impossible for a switched-in headmate to be both switched-in and quiet because you don't allow that in your definition. Changing your definition of switching to suit your needs can open the door to new experiences.

 

16 hours ago, TurboSimmie said:

Very often when I'm switched in I'll still let Phil handle the "gross" things (blowing his nose, spitting, etc), maybe I should get over myself and own those things too.

 

16 hours ago, TurboSimmie said:

But you have something that's very similar to our concept of who "owns" what. Like you have Layy tied to the waking-up process and Bryan tied to other things. There are certain things that are entirely Phil's domain--largely video games that I have no interest in--but not much belongs entirely to me. Maybe that's something to change!

 

When we switch, whoever is the host is responsible for everything, including dealing with periods in the bathroom, talking to whoever (even if you're not the best headmate for the situation), and doing whatever work you do. If I realize it would be better for Gray to be switched-in, we'll talk about it and then switch if we agree on it. It is possible taking more ownership of what you do while switched-in could affect your experience.

 

However, I think this is where preference starts to come in. If you are not happy being alone in the front and doing everything, it could lead to you switching out because you don't want to be around (when the headmate switched-in doesn't want to be here, it can sometimes destabilize our switching). Instead, you may want to explore co-fronting. We had an experience we call "switching-based co-fronting" where Gray and I spent 30 minutes exhausting ourselves by talking over each other, struggling to wash our hands, and having "you can't do this!" wars. It was hilarious and a lot of fun, and we have been told it's possible the fatigue comes from being inexperienced. You guys may find this option more appealing if you guys do want to share the front.

 

16 hours ago, IceCreeper909 said:

We theorize that it might have something to do with Esper, Bryan's "other half" being sub-rep, whom perhaps is acting as an "anchor" of sorts to the front, just as the Slave in Perfect Possession is. I would put more regarding this, but it's specific enough to us and no one else really to not be relevant here. 

 

While I can't really relate to that, I think it's an important enough dynamic in your system to consider. Gray, despite being one whole person, being "front-stuck" inspired our ideas for how thoughts can have presence/mindvoice still attached to them, how Gray is alway there, etc.

 

I think the wrong approach is to say anything along the lines of, "just don't be frontstuck" and change your mindset. That never helped anyone with this problem and is given as advice largely by people who have never actually had this issue in the first place.

 

Instead of changing the experience, consider how your specific dynamic influences your ideas on how switching works and see if there are holes or no space for new experiences. For example, with Gray, we realized there's a difference between unconscious impulsive thinking and conscious thinking. From there, we developed our idea about ghosts. This was something I found helpful to understand because I was confusing Gray's ghost for Gray himself. If Esper is acting as an anchor, how does that work? How does that influence your systems's thought patterns? Are there specific behaviors and/or experiences you all find important or desirable, perhaps what could help define being switched-in and switched-out? Is there anything internally that's poorly defined? Is there an experience you want that this set up doesn't allow?

 

---

 

Lastly, there is always the potential of a lurking trust barrier causing problems. Trust barriers blew up in our face post figuring out how to switch, but in learning how to switch Gray and I made progress on trust and had really important conversations about it. For instance, trying Ember's guide on switching promoted us to have an important conversation about Gray not having control and us deciding not to use that method because it wasn't a good fit for us. If you expect to have 100% control and there's discomfort in that, there may need to be a conversation about it. Otherwise, trust barriers can be far less obvious. Maybe there are boundaries about how to interact with friends, what voice you can speak in, how to interact with certain people you both have complicated and/or different opinions about (like parents), etc. While these don't always guarantee to lock up the switching front, it may help to go over this possiblity just in case.

Edited March 26, 2022 by Ranger

[YukariTelepath]

First of all, Phil has to agree to stop thinking, stop doing stuff. As long as he's more interested and engaged, he's going to keep pushing you out to do those things. Once he's on board with staying quiet, if he accidentally takes over, he's got to notice each time and back off.

Then... in our experience, staying in front involves rewiring the brain so the tulpa can do all those things that are so strongly associated with the host, including muscle memory and autopilot. So when you go to do something strongly associated with your host (for a tulpa just starting to control the body, that's literally everything), be mindful and assert your identity as much as you can the whole time. Then at least that task should be easier and easier to do without Phil taking over due to association. Eventually you can just do anything and it feels mundane, but you can do it without losing front, and you won't need to keep affirming you're in control all the time. 
 

On 3/25/2022 at 4:25 PM, TurboSimmie said:

Very often when I'm switched in I'll still let Phil handle the "gross" things (blowing his nose, spitting, etc), maybe I should get over myself and own those things too. I like the idea of switching in and cleaning though. That was actually one of my main motivations to learn switching in the first place!

 

Yeah, I'd say if you want to stay strongly in front you'll have to accept the body and any body maintenance stuff, otherwise the moment you need to clear your nose, you'll be out, or you'll want to be out, and it will be an easily interrupted experience. (Why does anyone need to spit, though? Just don't?) Above, I said eventually you can do anything, but if there's mundane daily things you don't want to do, it's going to make it pretty tough. If you want to switch in for more than two hours, you'll have to come to terms with a lot of things.

[Ranger]

14 hours ago, YukariTelepath said:

Then... in our experience, staying in front involves rewiring the brain so the tulpa can do all those things that are so strongly associated with the host, including muscle memory and autopilot. So when you go to do something strongly associated with your host (for a tulpa just starting to control the body, that's literally everything), be mindful and assert your identity as much as you can the whole time. Then at least that task should be easier and easier to do without Phil taking over due to association. Eventually you can just do anything and it feels mundane, but you can do it without losing front, and you won't need to keep affirming you're in control all the time. 

 

I think it's interesting we both have different perspectives on this approach. Despite my best efforts to stay in the front, I got stuck and only ever got this far. I think this is worth trying out regardless.

 

After I learned how to switch, I had to learn how to be okay with our autopilot being a lot like Gray, not me having to fight to rewire it. By being switched-in, I influence the autopilot automatically, but in turn it influenced my general behavior. I had issues where I found try to assert myself more and that's how I ended up "punching the steering wheel" and exhausted myself in the process.

[YukariTelepath]

3 hours ago, Ranger said:

After I learned how to switch, I had to learn how to be okay with our autopilot being a lot like Gray, not me having to fight to rewire it.

 

We might be talking about the same thing here. "Autopilot may feel like _____, but I'm still switched in." But you were approaching switching after being really familiar with possession for a long time, and we went straight to learning how to switch. So maybe you'd already done a lot of rewiring that we hadn't yet?

[Ranger]

3 hours ago, YukariTelepath said:

We might be talking about the same thing here. "Autopilot may feel like _____, but I'm still switched in." But you were approaching switching after being really familiar with possession for a long time, and we went straight to learning how to switch. So maybe you'd already done a lot of rewiring that we hadn't yet?

 

I don't think so?

 

When I posted about our laundry situation, that wasn't long before we figured out how to switch. When Gray bled through, I would try to manage that and resist him, but sometimes I would lose that battle. High functioning possession was like pushing a boulder uphill all the time.

 

Once I could switch, I no longer needed to do that. I was just switched-in, and that boulder I was fighting against just didn't exist anymore. It's like you push your arm under your other arm and then when you release the top arm, it floats up all by itself. That's why I could feel the "force" or that arm floating up feeling, that was my management training that was no longer required.

 

However, all of this is Gray bleeding through, not our autopilot. Gray's ghost (his unconscious thoughts) would give me trouble, but post switching they were a minor inconvenience instead of a constant nuisance that caused me to lose the front. Our autopilot was something else. After my autopilot assisted me, I never lost the switching front because of it. My autopilot certainly isn't noisy and impulsive like Gray was before he could switch out either. Once I got comfortable with our autopilot by accepting it, I had an easier time being switched-in, not a harder time. No rewiring required, just acceptance and learning how to be gentle.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Ranger

[Aya]

I see... When I started learning to switch, I hadn't controlled the body before, so I had to learn those things (what the body felt like to use, what autopilot felt like, etc). It was different for me than for you in a lot more ways, I guess. Yuka staying out of things was a matter of practice and things just improved over time. But we call it rewiring to teach the brain that I can do things in the body, to change the associations from Yuka to Aya.