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Switching guide in dreams (in progress)


Purlox
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(If you don't want to hear my explanation of how this should work, then skip to the part with underlined text)

 

This night I realised something. It was that lucid dreams and normal dreams have a big difference between them. I realised this after I consciously woke up from a normal dream that followed a lucid dream from which I also consciously woke up. To wake up in a normal dream, I just have to open my eyes. To wake up in a lucid dream though, opening eyes does nothing, because this will only make eyes of my dream body open up, instead I have to "get back to my body".

 

This made me think about if you actually aren't detached from the body in sleep during some of the cycles or in lucid dreams. Both seem to be true, because some times I get woken up by my noisy family, but other times I don't even though they were doing noise at the time, so I assume that at that time I wasn't receiving the bodies senses at all, which could be caused by me not being in the body during it.

 

We already know that falling asleep makes possession easier, because the host isn't there to stop it. But it could also be possible, that in some periods of sleep and if the host is lucid, it is easy to switch with the person dreaming.

 

Assuming what I think is correct then, we should be able to switch using this guide:

 

First the host goes asleep. After few minutes, when you (the tulpa) think that he is sleeping already, you try to get into his dream and make him lucid (realise that he is in a dream). This might be hard, but from what I know telling your name to him or calling his/hers name works. Tell your host to try to stay lucid as long as possible. I achieve this by constantly thinking about the world around me, when I stop thinking I start moving into the normal sleep state. Then you go out of the dream and you try to get the control over the body. Not just possession though, I mean full mind switch.

 

 

This guide was made based on my theory, not on my experience. So it would help me greatly if you reported your experience using it.

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No, you don't wake up during certain cycles of sleep because your brain is more active in different stages of sleep. When you go into REM, your body becomes paralyzed so you don't start acting out your dreams. The reason you don't get woken up by your noisy family is most likely because you are in REM at the time.

This is also why, if woken up during REM, you are instantly more alert than if you wake up during NREM. Your brain is already very active.

Also, you are not detached from your body, and your body still senses and perceives. Otherwise you wouldn't turn over or otherwise move in your sleep.

 

Possession during REM is pointless because your body is paralyzed.

 

If you woke up from a dream by opening your eyes, you must have realized that you were dreaming, so it was a lucid dream both times.

 

It's hard to stay in a lucid dream, once you realize that you're lucid dreaming, without practice.

 

Stages-Of-The-Sleep-Cycle.jpg

sleep-cycle.gif

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Possession during REM is pointless because your body is paralyzed.

 

Do we know for certain that whatever blocks your mind from sending signals to your muscles during REM happens *after* the point where a tulpa inserts their signals?

 

If sleep paralysis blocks signals after where the tulpa inserts stuff, it would block tulpa movements as well. But if it's something between you and where a tulpa can insert signals, it might only affect stuff you're trying to do, leaving the tulpa free to possess.

Lyra: human female, ~17

Evan: boy, ~14, was an Eevee

Anera: anime-style girl, ~12; Lyra made her

My blog :: Time expectations are bad (forcing time targets are good though)

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I thought we already agreed that tulpa can't change neural functions on that level.

 

Even if they could, possession during sleep is counter productive. One of the purposes of sleep is to let your body rest, and allowing your tulpa to run around in your body while you are asleep isn't helping anything. It's just unhealthy.

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I thought we already agreed that tulpa can't change neural functions on that level.

I'm not saying it might change neural function. I'm not sure what level the existing neural function causing sleep paralysis operates at.

 

Even if they could, possession during sleep is counter productive. One of the purposes of sleep is to let your body rest, and allowing your tulpa to run around in your body while you are asleep isn't helping anything. It's just unhealthy.

Yes, though if it's possible, it could be useful for practicing on possession. Host takes a nap and tulpa does a bit of practice movement. (A short nap, so as not to interfere with the night's sleep.)

 

I'm mostly just curious about under what conditions sleep-possession is possible. As I've seen on the IRC, it's possible if the tulpa is possessing before the host falls asleep (WreckingFist&Compass), though it might be considerably more difficult for the tulpa to maintain control (Lemonlemon&Yolk). Atasco can begin possession while his host is asleep, but I don't know if this is during a dream or not. Sands&Roswell have said something about breaking out of sleep paralysis but it being really difficult for the tulpa.

 

Additionally if you stay awake into sleep paralysis, you can break out of it with effort; why couldn't a tulpa do it during sleep?

Lyra: human female, ~17

Evan: boy, ~14, was an Eevee

Anera: anime-style girl, ~12; Lyra made her

My blog :: Time expectations are bad (forcing time targets are good though)

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I'm not saying it might change neural function. I'm not sure what level the existing neural function causing sleep paralysis operates at.

 

It's down at the neurochemical level.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Sorry for my late response, I rather invested my time into working on the article rather than on responding.

 

No, you don't wake up during certain cycles of sleep because your brain is more active in different stages of sleep.

I don't see how having higher brain activity has to do anything to do with it. (At least when it comes to causation)

 

The reason you don't get woken up by your noisy family is most likely because you are in REM at the time.

This is also why, if woken up during REM, you are instantly more alert than if you wake up during NREM. Your brain is already very active.

You say I can be woken up during REM, but somehow I don't wake up because of my noisy family, because I'm in REM ... can you please expand on this? It doesn't make much sense with this amount of information.

 

Also, you are not detached from your body, and your body still senses and perceives. Otherwise you wouldn't turn over or otherwise move in your sleep.

It's true that body still senses and perceives the surrounding, but that doesn't mean I do. I don't think it is me who is moving in my sleep, it's my body without my direct input. (This might be just semantics because I see a difference between a body and me, the mind, consciousness, soul or however you want to call it, that inhabits the body)

 

When you go into REM, your body becomes paralyzed so you don't start acting out your dreams. [...] Possession during REM is pointless because your body is paralyzed.

I think only the host is blocked from using the body (as Chupi suggested could be possible), because a few tulpae possessed their hosts for hours, while they were asleep, and the host should have REM sleep during that time, so your theory doesn't apply in practise.

 

If you woke up from a dream by opening your eyes, you must have realized that you were dreaming, so it was a lucid dream both times.

I should have made it more obvious in my post, but lucidity isn't true/false thing, it's more of a slider from 1 to 0, where 1 represents being very lucid and 0 not being lucid at all.

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It's down at the neurochemical level.

 

Well, that was vague.

 


Jeebus, people, do some research before posting on this board. I'm seriously beginning to doubt this community is really science-oriented.

That was a joke. I've actually never believed that.

 

Heh.

 

Ugh.

 

 

Wikipedia is useless this time, because the article on deprivation cites from Scientific American (derp one) information that isn't even there (or rather the exact opposite of what the article in SciAm — link is below — states.) Furthermore, the article on REM sleep, specifically the part about REM sleep atonia in the first section states an unfounded hypothesis with a cute [citation needed] remark, even though the hypothesis is also expressed in the Scientific American article (derp three). So forget Wikipedia.

 

This is an excellent paper, and I suggest that you read it. It's obviously OCR-converted and no one apparently bothered to correct the errors, but it's fairly readable.

http://www.psychology.uiowa.edu/Faculty/Blumberg/Course_Docs/Seminar.2008/Readings/Siegel.REMSleep.pdf

If you're too lazy, read just the section titled Control of muscle tone. Also, the experiments it draws upon were done on cats, so if you like cats, you probably shouldn't read it.

 

If that wasn't complicated enough for you, then here's more.

 

From http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18385312 (it's just an abstract):

Our data refute the prevailing hypothesis that REM atonia is caused by glycinergic inhibition. Okay, so glycinergic inhibition is not the only cause of sleep atonia.

You can read mehr hier: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2579974/

They concluded that neither glycine nor GABA were responsible for atonia during the tonic periods of REM sleep (although they found that glycine-mediated postsynaptic inhibition was the key process that resulted in atonia during phasic REM periods.

 

If you've managed to read those scientific papers through, you deserve an easier read to alleviate the strain they've put on your faculties: Why We Sleep

And something about twitches occurring in REM sleep, which sort of contradicts some of what the articles linked above state: To sleep, perchance to twitch. Perhaps the sleep mechanisms work differently in infants. Bah, who knows. We still live in an age when we know pretty much jack about ourselves.

 

Incidentally, if I remember correctly, the (primary) motor regions become active when you imagine yourself moving — not just visualise movement — just as the primary visual cortex is active when you visualise. The activated areas on the PMC map even correspond to those that would be activated when an actual movement were made — I think; all of a sudden, I'm not sure of this at all. You can even train your muscle memory this way, but it's not all that effective.

This indicates something. Movements can be imagined without having to be performed.

 

I imagine that, by being active, a tulpa would to some extent disrupt the natural sleep cycle. I'd also venture to guess that if the tulpa were to use and move the body in the host's sleep, then the sleep would amount to mere unconsciousness or a similar altered state of consciousness, perhaps not unlike that which tulpas experience when they're asleep. I doubt such a kind of sleep would relieve tiredness or generally be beneficial in any way.

 

So, during REM sleep, even spinal reflexes are suppressed. Now, imagine a scenario in which a tulpa would like to use the body during REM sleep. What would the tulpa have to do? First, the mechanism that induces muscle atonia, which is autonomic, would have to be disabled. Then, in order to prevent the signals from the motor cortex from reaching the muscles, resulting in acting out the current dream, the tulpa in would also have to override the poor host's voluntary movements. It'd be easier to somehow exit the REM phase and keep the host unconscious.

 

Anyways, all of this is way too complicated and definitely worthy of thorough research. Those with freaky, potent tulpas should do as many experiments with possession and sleep as they can and post results if they live through them. I would love nothing more than to see accepted scientific theories fall apart.

 

Ah, sorry for the particularly crappy writing style and tone and inconsistency of this message. I lack the energy to reread and correct it.

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@Virgil: My personal reason for not using research papers on anything related to the mind or brain is pretty easy to understand and logical:

 

Researches (, thus also their conclusions) and theories are affected by the thoughts and theories of the time they were created in.

Commonly it is thought that only mind per body is healthy and having more than that isn't, so research and theories that are related to the mind or brain are made with this in mind.

Our experiences and experiences of other similar communities suggest that having more than one consciousness in the brain can be healthy.

And so the theories and conclusions of the researches have high chance of not being (entirely) true in general or at least when it comes to bodies with multiple consciousnesses in them.

 

I imagine that, by being active, a tulpa would to some extent disrupt the natural sleep cycle. I'd also venture to guess that if the tulpa were to use and move the body in the host's sleep, then the sleep would amount to mere unconsciousness or a similar altered state of consciousness, perhaps not unlike that which tulpas experience when they're asleep. I doubt such a kind of sleep would relieve tiredness or generally be beneficial in any way.

That depends on how you do it. E.g. the host could go to sleep lets say 2 hours early and the tulpa could use the body during that time and after that either go to sleep or become a tulpa again and play in the wonderland and go sleep later and the body still gets the same amount of sleep as usual, but the host's mind gets 2 more hours.

 

Also there seems to be a difference between the tiredness of a mind/consciousness and the tiredness of a body, so keep that in mind.

 

*Some of the links and text about how the signals in the brain are blocked a bit to prevent movement in dreams*

Keep in mind that those theories were made while taking only one mind into consideration. So it might not be that the movement signals are blocked in general, but that only the sleeping mind's movement signals are blocked.

 

Anyways, all of this is way too complicated and definitely worthy of thorough research. Those with freaky, potent tulpas should do as many experiments with possession and sleep as they can and post results if they live through them. I would love nothing more than to see accepted scientific theories fall apart.

There have been quite a few tulpae doing such experiments, but I don't think we have a single unified thread for them, if they posted about it in the forum at all. So it would be beneficial if we made one.

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