hakase November 9, 2012 Share November 9, 2012 im not saying that i know about neurochemistry or psychology, but i know that i know more than the average joe from doing research on my own, reading up on the mind, ect... If this were true then you would know that it is not possible for human memories to be well and truly "deleted". They are not deleted, the connections to those memories are simply lost or removed. If another connection is found or made, then BAM the memory comes back. There's your mythical ctrl-Z that you're so fanatical about. And shit, maybe there's research somewhere that says that memories can actually be deleted, and not just lost. If there is, then I haven't read it, and as far as I know, no such research exists. do you want to bring my religion into this? Since you insist on wearing it on your sleeve, Yes. I won't chastise you for expecting me to hold true to any statements or claims I make in public if you wish me to do so, because I always try my best to refrain from saying things I don't mean or don't believe or can't defend, and I hold others to the same standard. also, is it customary to research the person you are arguing with's profile? this is my first forum i ever registered for, im more of a IRC guy. i see that you wrote "singature, profile..." I couldn't tell you. All I can tell you is that I hate hypocrites, and I don't understand how someone who says that they're a christian and believes that "the body is a temple" can turn around and make an analogy that puts living, breathing human beings on the same level as a simple "push button, get bacon" system. "Give a man a Truth, and he will think for a day. Teach a man to Reason, and he will think for a lifetime." -Phil Plait Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motorheadlk November 9, 2012 Share November 9, 2012 Can you give an example of reason why a sane person would care for a memory when he was bullied? Whether or not they learn to do something is between the tulpae and their host, we shouldn't impose any requirements on them and at best we should avoid forcing ourselves (or others) to be part of the decision altogether. I don't know, maybe the love of his life was there to treat his wounds or something, anyway, tulpas can decide on something the host doesn't want for what SHE perceives as a benefit, even if the host doesn't agree with it. Everything I've experienced, even if painful, is by itself useful and I wouldn't want anything that I remember deleted, be a bad or a good memory. There are people who don't want to remember X, and that's fine, the problem is if the tulpa wants to delete Y because she thinks that's alright, imagine if a tulpa who don't even have a stable personality simply decide to do something stupid as to delete a memory of the host without his consent. That could happen, and the mere possibility of this happening should be at least warned at a tag. There is absolutely no reason to take the risk of people having memory deletions without they wanting just because you don't like to put a tag on a thread. If this were true then you would know that it is not possible for human memories to be well and truly "deleted". They are not deleted, the connections to those memories are simply lost or removed. If another connection is found or made, then BAM the memory comes back. There's your mythical ctrl-Z that you're so fanatical about. Yup, there is no way a memory could be deleted OH MY GOD AMNESIA WHAT I'M I SAYING WHERE I AM. Yes, maybe a memory can't be deleted, but hey, if you don't even know you had it, what are your ways to remember it? If a tulpa deletes your memory, then how would you even know that? Asking your tulpa? If she already deleted, then there would be no point of telling you she did. And shit, maybe there's research somewhere that says that memories can actually be deleted, and not just lost. If there is, then I haven't read it, and as far as I know, no such research exists. Oh yeah, right. And where is the research that points that memories can't be deleted again? You don't remember everything, either because you don't have access to it or because you don't record everything, doesn't matter. Either way, if you don't have access you still can't remember, being deleted or not. Being able to actually bring the memory back is something that could only happen if you had a memory of having this memory, and if your tulpa deleted it (I'm using "delete" as "blocking your access") you can't recover because you don't even know that you want to recover it. There is simply no plea here. Putting it in a succinct way, your tulpa may do things you don't agree. By trying this, you are giving her the power and knowledge to be able to erase a memory. Therefore, your tulpa can erase one of your memories even if you don't want to. And of course, you wouldn't even know. Now, you guys tell me, why this stuff should be avaiable for everyone to see and try at their own risk, if risks could be avoided by placing a warning in the title and in the thread? We don't live in portal 2, we're not in the aperture laboratories website, we're definitely not Cave Johnson, we don't need to take risks just for the fun. A person should at least be warned of the risks, because he or she could as well not want to try this if she knew if beforehand. By the intelhunter's pill analogie, it's like telling a friend to swallow a pill and only later telling what it does, and mainly saying that you don't even know. I'm brazilian and my english is not really good, I'll do every mistake you imagine, but I'll try to avoid them. Tulpa: Kuruminha Age: Began on the middle of october. Form: My avatar. Sentience: Confirmed. Mindvoice: Not yet. Working on: Visualization and Mindspeaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intelhunter November 9, 2012 Share November 9, 2012 If this were true then you would know that it is not possible for human memories to be well and truly "deleted". They are not deleted, the connections to those memories are simply lost or removed. If another connection is found or made, then BAM the memory comes back. There's your mythical ctrl-Z that you're so fanatical about. And shit, maybe there's research somewhere that says that memories can actually be deleted, and not just lost. If there is, then I haven't read it, and as far as I know, no such research exists. Since you insist on wearing it on your sleeve, Yes. I won't chastise you for expecting me to hold true to any statements or claims I make in public if you wish me to do so, because I always try my best to refrain from saying things I don't mean or don't believe or can't defend, and I hold others to the same standard. I couldn't tell you. All I can tell you is that I hate hypocrites, and I don't understand how someone who says that they're a christian and believes that "the body is a temple" can turn around and make an analogy that puts living, breathing human beings on the same level as a simple "push button, get bacon" system. As motorheadlk wrote, you can actually have amnesia, and you cant just make new connections like *BAM*. It is so damn intricate, so you have to be very lucky if your brain makes new connections when every single connection is gone for that memory, because there are a lot of synapses needed for a memory. and yes, im pretty sure you can delete a memory completely, just as you can dissapate a tulpa i believe that you can force a memory away for good. im cool with you bringing my religion into it, i was just a bit surprised. and why am i a hypocrite? when i say that the brain is like a computer, im not saying the brain is "push button, get bacon", im saying that the brain is a "feel need, ponder existential questions, get revelation, make beutifull and meaningfull art, ect, ect, ect." so yeah, im still saying that we should show caution when approaching theese things, and we should be good rolemodels and show responsibility. Ayo grill how you be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purlox November 9, 2012 Share November 9, 2012 it works like this then: tulpa deletes host, tulpa acts like host and severs all ties slowly and then starts anew. Could you say how it works when it comes to the brain? In the sense how exactly would a host get "deleted" without brain damage caused by an external factor etc. humans are computers, just ultra-super-duper-über complex ones. and you cant just boot up a tulpa(new personality), we have to program them carefully(read: tulpaforce them), and treat them with love and accept their flaws and forgive their mistakes. also, some times people go waaay over their limits. Depends on what you consider a computer. Either way though what applies to a computer doesn't have to apply to a mind or brain, so the above analogy doesn't have to work. all im saying is that we should approach this as pharmacologists approach a new pill they are making, we shouldnt gulp it down to see what happens, we should start to look for pointers, and last time i checked "MEMORY DELETION WITH NO CTRL+Z" is a clear sign of something that you dont want to gulp down. First someone has to test it before you can know any potential dangers, so why not let us and other people test it? How do you know we can't un-forget a memory? Have you done enough tests on that to conclude this or do you have any papers that confirm it's impossible? tulpas can decide on something the host doesn't want for what SHE perceives as a benefit, even if the host doesn't agree with it. Everything I've experienced, even if painful, is by itself useful and I wouldn't want anything that I remember deleted, be a bad or a good memory. There are people who don't want to remember X, and that's fine, the problem is if the tulpa wants to delete Y because she thinks that's alright, imagine if a tulpa who don't even have a stable personality simply decide to do something stupid as to delete a memory of the host without his consent. That could happen, and the mere possibility of this happening should be at least warned at a tag. There is absolutely no reason to take the risk of people having memory deletions without they wanting just because you don't like to put a tag on a thread. If a tulpa does stuff that affect the host without his consent or even against the host's will, then the problem is that and not that they can change memories. What is a stable personality? Yup, there is no way a memory could be deleted OH MY GOD AMNESIA WHAT I'M I SAYING WHERE I AM. As motorheadlk wrote, you can actually have amnesia I've just looked at types of amnesias and their causes and memories in most of them are either repressed (in other words they are still there, just can't be recalled) or they were lost due to brain damage. Can you tell me which type of amnesia you are talking about? Yes, maybe a memory can't be deleted, but hey, if you don't even know you had it, what are your ways to remember it? If a tulpa deletes your memory, then how would you even know that? Asking your tulpa? If she already deleted, then there would be no point of telling you she did. There are some reasons why a tulpa could tell you if they manipulated with your memory. If you want to know if someone manipulated with it, then you could make a servitor that tells you. Oh yeah, right. And where is the research that points that memories can't be deleted again? You don't remember everything, either because you don't have access to it or because you don't record everything, doesn't matter. Either way, if you don't have access you still can't remember, being deleted or not. Being able to actually bring the memory back is something that could only happen if you had a memory of having this memory, and if your tulpa deleted it (I'm using "delete" as "blocking your access") you can't recover because you don't even know that you want to recover it. You can try to recall a memory without knowing you had it. E.g. you don't have to remember that you went to a cinema last night as long as you try to remember something that will lead you to the memory like trying to remember what you did last night. Now, you guys tell me, why this stuff should be avaiable for everyone to see and try at their own risk, if risks could be avoided by placing a warning in the title and in the thread? We don't live in portal 2, we're not in the aperture laboratories website, we're definitely not Cave Johnson, we don't need to take risks just for the fun. A person should at least be warned of the risks, because he or she could as well not want to try this if she knew if beforehand. People should be able to realise the risks of what they are doing on their own, we shouldn't hold their hands and protect them from even the smallest of small risks. This information should be available to everyone, so they can decide if they want to risk anything that goes with it, instead of making it available just to few people, because it's their lives and they are the ones that are usually the best at deciding whether or not they want to risk it. By the intelhunter's pill analogie, it's like telling a friend to swallow a pill and only later telling what it does, and mainly saying that you don't even know. Are you saying that we are telling people they have to do this and we aren't telling them what this stuff does? It's pretty obvious to understand what this does just by looking at the name and if you want to know any possible dangers before you do it, then wait until more people test it out. and you cant just make new connections like *BAM*. It is so damn intricate, so you have to be very lucky if your brain makes new connections when every single connection is gone for that memory, because there are a lot of synapses needed for a memory. Why does it matter how many synapses are needed for creating a memory, when you are making or removing connections? and yes, im pretty sure you can delete a memory completely, just as you can dissapate a tulpa i believe that you can force a memory away for good. I think you can only get rid of tulpae (and memories) by slow death not instantly. I think so because many tulpae reported living after they were "killed" or ignored for a long time. 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intelhunter November 9, 2012 Share November 9, 2012 Could you say how it works when it comes to the brain? In the sense how exactly would a host get "deleted" without brain damage caused by an external factor etc. Depends on what you consider a computer. Either way though what applies to a computer doesn't have to apply to a mind or brain, so the above analogy doesn't have to work. First someone has to test it before you can know any potential dangers, so why not let us and other people test it? How do you know we can't un-forget a memory? Have you done enough tests on that to conclude this or do you have any papers that confirm it's impossible? If a tulpa does stuff that affect the host without his consent or even against the host's will, then the problem is that and not that they can change memories. What is a stable personality? I've just looked at types of amnesias and their causes and memories in most of them are either repressed (in other words they are still there, just can't be recalled) or they were lost due to brain damage. Can you tell me which type of amnesia you are talking about? There are some reasons why a tulpa could tell you if they manipulated with your memory. If you want to know if someone manipulated with it, then you could make a servitor that tells you. You can try to recall a memory without knowing you had it. E.g. you don't have to remember that you went to a cinema last night as long as you try to remember something that will lead you to the memory like trying to remember what you did last night. People should be able to realise the risks of what they are doing on their own, we shouldn't hold their hands and protect them from even the smallest of small risks. This information should be available to everyone, so they can decide if they want to risk anything that goes with it, instead of making it available just to few people, because it's their lives and they are the ones that are usually the best at deciding whether or not they want to risk it. Are you saying that we are telling people they have to do this and we aren't telling them what this stuff does? It's pretty obvious to understand what this does just by looking at the name and if you want to know any possible dangers before you do it, then wait until more people test it out. Why does it matter how many synapses are needed for creating a memory, when you are making or removing connections? I think you can only get rid of tulpae (and memories) by slow death not instantly. I think so because many tulpae reported living after they were "killed" or ignored for a long time. you make a lot of decent points, but my stance remains the same: Caution is strongly adviced, this has not been thouroughly tested before. keep in mind, that we are in a way pioners in the field of tulpa yeah, i know, monks where here first. Ayo grill how you be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motorheadlk November 10, 2012 Share November 10, 2012 If a tulpa does stuff that affect the host without his consent or even against the host's will, then the problem is that and not that they can change memories. The problem is that a host might try this thinking it could be harmless, since there is no warning. If the problem is on tulpas doing things the host doesn't consent, then everyone here has a problem and we should acknowledge it. Don't go asking "where do you get this from" because I already told you, the surveys. If tulpas can do something without the hosts consent, that's bad, but there's no need to go on and give your daughter a shotgun if you know that, right? Or like you say, you would only say "the problem is my daughter that might use the shotgun without my consent, not the fact that I gave the shotgun to her", the thing is that is hard to make a tulpa not do anything you don't consent to, but is easy to put a tag on a thread. What is a stable personality A personality that the hosts knows and doesn't changes like a bipolar one or as a matter of fact a not fully developed one. A personality that the hosts either believes that the tulpas is unable to do what he doesn't want to (like having a loyalty or submissive trait), or a personality that the host believes that the tulpa won't simply put in her head to erase a memory no matter the situation, something one can't be sure with a tulpa with a unstable personality or one not fully developed. I've just looked at types of amnesias and their causes and memories in most of them are either repressed (in other words they are still there, just can't be recalled) Can you tell me which type of amnesia you are talking about? I'm talking about the ones that are repressed. They are repressed and sometimes a person can never recover them fully. It's not easy to recover them, and the risk should of course be avoided especially if the person is unaware of it. There are some reasons why a tulpa could tell you if they manipulated with your memory. Yes. And there are reasons why they would not. If you want to know if someone manipulated with it, then you could make a servitor that tells you. It's not like a memory repressed by a tulpa can simply be put back in place by a servitor, someone with less "mind power" than a tulpa. And this is only a hypothesis untill people actually try to make a servitor to recover the memory. Even if someone is able to do it though, it could be because the tulpa didn't try her best to repress the memory. There is nothing that could make one sure that a memory can always be easily recovered. You can try to recall a memory without knowing you had it. E.g. you don't have to remember that you went to a cinema last night as long as you try to remember something that will lead you to the memory like trying to remember what you did last night. If the memory is repressed, then you are obviously unable to simply remember what you did last night. You will go like "Oh, I was at the street, and the last thing I remember from there is a memory of me going home", if the memory is repressed, then it is hard to recover, as it is with amnesia, you can't just think "What I did yesterday" if your memory is repressed to the point of which you can't remember. People should be able to realise the risks of what they are doing on their own, we shouldn't hold their hands and protect them from even the smallest of small risks. This information should be available to everyone, so they can decide if they want to risk anything that goes with it, instead of making it available just to few people, because it's their lives and they are the ones that are usually the best at deciding whether or not they want to risk it. I don't see your point. There are risks. Putting a tag won't censor the knowledge of this. The tag and the warning should be for those who are willing to TRY it, not those who read it. It's not like everyone will think "Hey, maybe it's not a good idea to let my tulpa erase my memories", most people would think something like "Oh, cool, let's see if my tulpa can do it". The point of the warning is to let these people know that there are risks. Not wanting them to know however is something that you can't plea for. There is simply no good reason to say a warning shouldn't be put in threads like this. Are you saying that we are telling people they have to do this and we aren't telling them what this stuff does?! No, we are just saying them to try this and report what happens, without letting them know that this could have risks. A person won't simply imply there are risks because there are several research threads asking guys to try X and they are almost all harmless. One would see this and think it's something interesting and give it a try, even if his tulpa doesn't have a stable personality. It's pretty obvious to understand what this does just by looking at the name and if you want to know any possible dangers before you do it No, it's not. You are asking a person to do something. This person might or might not see the consequences of this. That's why said person should be warned before trying. Is it that hard to understand? then wait until more people test it out. So, let people try this and see if there is risks to be able to tell if there are. Let's make a person jump on dark hole to see if he survives? I know the analogy is strong, but hey, letting someone take a pill to be able to tell if it's dangerous shouldn't be the way to do it. You should AT LEAST warn the guy that there might be some risks on the process. I'm brazilian and my english is not really good, I'll do every mistake you imagine, but I'll try to avoid them. Tulpa: Kuruminha Age: Began on the middle of october. Form: My avatar. Sentience: Confirmed. Mindvoice: Not yet. Working on: Visualization and Mindspeaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous February 1, 2013 Share February 1, 2013 This was last week, so my memory (which you will see has lapses) may not be totally accurate. I had a notebook with the sentence written down, I had it well remembered, or so I thought. Three hours later, I realized that I had forgotten what I had written, and also that I had wrote anything until I opened up the notebook for another reason. We were going to modification. I was distracted, but I was the first time we attempted this as well, months ago. I thought I recorded my first venture into memory editing. The sentence was Adam is idle. I remembered it as I initially wrote it. I'll have to do more testing in this area. While I'm more interested in memory retention and recall, learning to forget is important, and might give insight into remembering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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