Perspectives on heaven and hell

[Guest Anonymous]

A while back, I was talking with a priest. Naturally, we weaved our way into discussing religious topics, eventually heaven and hell. I asked, “What is heaven like?”

 

His response was simple. “A state of love.”

 

I prodded a bit deeper, asking, “What is love, then?” He claimed love is sacrificing for others. His example – Mother Teresa.

 

“She is always happy. She has nothing, visits some of the absolute worst places, yet her smile persists. She is close to heaven. She is selfless. She is in a state of love.”

 

Continuing, the priest went on to say, “Hell is a state of complete selfishness. Being utterly absorbed in one’s self. If you were to take someone from hell and put him into heaven, he would run back to hell.”

 

 

 

This struck me. I have always imagined heaven being, well, a reward of sorts. My mental image was not one of clouds, but rolling hills with verdant grasses. Perhaps those I have loved, those of my family, friends would appear there. Though, of course, the actual person’s heaven might be quite different, to them I might not be there. Their heaven being of their perspective, a personal heaven of sorts. However, with what this priest has said, perhaps my vision of heaven is more like hell. It’s selfish, it revolves around myself instead of others.

 

What do you imagine heaven like? And hell, if you believe in one?

[Discord]

A while back, I was talking with a priest. Naturally, we weaved our way into discussing religious topics, eventually heaven and hell. I asked, “What is heaven like?”

 

His response was simple. “A state of love.”

 

I prodded a bit deeper, asking, “What is love, then?” He claimed love is sacrificing for others. His example – Mother Teresa.

 

“She is always happy. She has nothing, visits some of the absolute worst places, yet her smile persists. She is close to heaven. She is selfless. She is in a state of love.”

 

Continuing, the priest went on to say, “Hell is a state of complete selfishness. Being utterly absorbed in one’s self. If you were to take someone from hell and put him into heaven, he would run back to hell.”

 

 

 

This struck me. I have always imagined heaven being, well, a reward of sorts. My mental image was not one of clouds, but rolling hills with verdant grasses. Perhaps those I have loved, those of my family, friends would appear there. Though, of course, the actual person’s heaven might be quite different, to them I might not be there. Their heaven being of their perspective, a personal heaven of sorts. However, with what this priest has said, perhaps my vision of heaven is more like hell. It’s selfish, it revolves around myself instead of others.

 

What do you imagine heaven like? And hell, if you believe in one?

 

According to my beliefs, there is no Hell. But there will be paradise. Those who need to be punished will be punished though.

[Raxter]

The concept of heaven and hell address a very crucial question: Does life have meaning?

 

If life has meaning, then what we do will follow us to the next life. If it doesn't, then the life we're currently living is all there is, and heaven / hell do not exist.

 

If heaven exists I doubt it will be like how many people picture it. White clouds, harps, peering down on the earth, etc. Christianity specifically seems to gloss over the whole bit about carnal pleasures and whether sex is something you're capable of having while in heaven. After all, what other activity do you find as pleasurable? Yet it's just a "given" that this won't be occurring? What about harp playing? I can't play a harp, I certainly can't sing! Will I be expected to sing amongst the TRILLIONS of other souls there? What a racket it would be.

 

Hell? Punishment for eternity? I don't get it. You can get used to anything after a long enough time and I doubt there's a Hell Bureau being run by imps and goblins that are coming up with new ways to make people hurt, burn, or be dismembered. The concept seems just as ludicrous as heaven and supposedly these two "realms" are at war with each other? Where can I sign up to be a demonlord or archangel?

 

No. I remain unconvinced that there's something after this life. Mother nature has evolved us to do everything we can to pass along our adapted genes and that's all we can hope for. If there was life after death then reproduction would be meaningless (despite "go forth and prosper") and this realm of existence we're currently experiencing would be a pointless waste of time. It's not like we're given an instruction book straight out of the womb that explains everything. It's not like the earliest humans (cavemen, not Adam and Eve) "downloaded" the information from the air and instantly knew how to lead spiritually fulfilling religious lives.

 

Religion is a human construct developed to control the largest amount of people with the minimal amount of effort. It's typically for profit and hides behind the guise of love, acceptance, and good faith. Yet a vast majority of followers and leaders do the exact opposite of this making it not only a human construct but an extremely fallible one at that.

 

When I die I will cease to exist. I will not "float in infinite nothingness". I won't burn for eternity or try to earn my angel wings. I won't be reborn as a cockroach or a bean plant. I'll simply cease. I'll be at peace with no disease, mental anguish, or lustful thoughts plaguing my every moment. I'll experience nothing, I'll be nothing, I'll want nothing.

 

THAT is more comforting to me than any sermon or heaven.

[Discord]

The concept of heaven and hell address a very crucial question: Does life have meaning?

 

If life has meaning, then what we do will follow us to the next life. If it doesn't, then the life we're currently living is all there is, and heaven / hell do not exist.

 

If heaven exists I doubt it will be like how many people picture it. White clouds, harps, peering down on the earth, etc. Christianity specifically seems to gloss over the whole bit about carnal pleasures and whether sex is something you're capable of having while in heaven. After all, what other activity do you find as pleasurable? Yet it's just a "given" that this won't be occurring? What about harp playing? I can't play a harp, I certainly can't sing! Will I be expected to sing amongst the TRILLIONS of other souls there? What a racket it would be.

 

Hell? Punishment for eternity? I don't get it. You can get used to anything after a long enough time and I doubt there's a Hell Bureau being run by imps and goblins that are coming up with new ways to make people hurt, burn, or be dismembered. The concept seems just as ludicrous as heaven and supposedly these two "realms" are at war with each other? Where can I sign up to be a demonlord or archangel?

 

No. I remain unconvinced that there's something after this life. Mother nature has evolved us to do everything we can to pass along our adapted genes and that's all we can hope for. If there was life after death then reproduction would be meaningless (despite "go forth and prosper") and this realm of existence we're currently experiencing would be a pointless waste of time. It's not like we're given an instruction book straight out of the womb that explains everything. It's not like the earliest humans (cavemen, not Adam and Eve) "downloaded" the information from the air and instantly knew how to lead spiritually fulfilling religious lives.

 

Religion is a human construct developed to control the largest amount of people with the minimal amount of effort. It's typically for profit and hides behind the guise of love, acceptance, and good faith. Yet a vast majority of followers and leaders do the exact opposite of this making it not only a human construct but an extremely fallible one at that.

 

When I die I will cease to exist. I will not "float in infinite nothingness". I won't burn for eternity or try to earn my angel wings. I won't be reborn as a cockroach or a bean plant. I'll simply cease. I'll be at peace with no disease, mental anguish, or lustful thoughts plaguing my every moment. I'll experience nothing, I'll be nothing, I'll want nothing.

 

THAT is more comforting to me than any sermon or heaven.

I agree about churches being constructs made out of greed. Which is why pagans don't even have churches (I know there's the fact that Christians will persecute those churches, but I know there are many pagans who wouldn't be scared so easily). They realize that religion is a personal thing, and everyone should discover their spiritual journey alone, while doing research. Although many pagan religions do have covens, or something similar. Just so people can socialize, and help each other gain a higher understanding of magick, and be out in nature to honour the god and goddess.

 

I believe in a form of Gnostic Luciferianism. I believe there is someone named Lucifer who is an angel of light. But instead of him giving orders and dogma, he wants us to instead, find the divinity within ourselves. I think that is true spirituality, looking within. Lucifer is still there to be a friend, mentor, guide, etc, but he wants us all to look within ourselves, because we were all made with the spark of the divine. I also believe in Zen Buddhism. I believe that one can only achieve enlightenment through meditation, and not deeds. Yes, good deeds are also very important, but those alone will not help one achieve enlightenment. So I believe that we are all cosmic students, and we will keep being reborn until we finally find the spark within us, and achieve enlightenment.

 

Edit: Also, the possibility of not existing is a scary thought. Sure, we'll never again cry, but we'll never again be happy, never laugh, never have hope. I for one, WANT to live. I want to feel emotions. I want to have something to strive for. If I don't exist, I'm simply not there and can't feel anything.

[Semi-Nomadic]

If heaven exists I doubt it will be like how many people picture it. White clouds, harps, peering down on the earth, etc. Christianity specifically seems to gloss over the whole bit about carnal pleasures and whether sex is something you're capable of having while in heaven. After all, what other activity do you find as pleasurable? Yet it's just a "given" that this won't be occurring? What about harp playing? I can't play a harp, I certainly can't sing! Will I be expected to sing amongst the TRILLIONS of other souls there? What a racket it would be.

 

Hell? Punishment for eternity? I don't get it. You can get used to anything after a long enough time and I doubt there's a Hell Bureau being run by imps and goblins that are coming up with new ways to make people hurt, burn, or be dismembered. The concept seems just as ludicrous as heaven and supposedly these two "realms" are at war with each other? Where can I sign up to be a demonlord or archangel?

 

Just a note, but what you're describing (harps, fluffy clouds, demons, wars...) is definitely not something that religious people actually believe. It's just a visual shorthand out of a cartoon or a comic strip. This book offers some description of the Catholic view of heaven/hell, and if you seek a little you'll find plenty of writings like this one (though they will inevitably disagree with each other.)

 

If there was life after death then reproduction would be meaningless (despite "go forth and prosper")

 

Why? If there was no reproduction then there'd only ever be a handful of people in existence, and why allow that when you can have so many more friends?

 

and this realm of existence we're currently experiencing would be a pointless waste of time. It's not like we're given an instruction book straight out of the womb that explains everything. It's not like the earliest humans (cavemen, not Adam and Eve) "downloaded" the information from the air and instantly knew how to lead spiritually fulfilling religious lives.

 

Who knows, maybe they did *shrug* If you believe in heaven, you might as well believe that people regularly had chats with God back in the stone age, or something like that.

[Raxter]

 

Just a note, but what you're describing (harps, fluffy clouds, demons, wars...) is definitely not something that religious people actually believe. It's just a visual shorthand out of a cartoon or a comic strip. This book offers some description of the Catholic view of heaven/hell, and if you seek a little you'll find plenty of writings like this one (though they will inevitably disagree with each other.)

 

The fact that there's so many different people all saying different things about ONE concept I think furthers the argument that heaven isn't really a place. Some say it's a personal heaven, everything you like or enjoy will be there. Others says it's basking in God's everlasting love and you'll not mind the other souls next to you doing the same thing.

It's not the visual aspect of heaven I was getting at but more so the activities of what would be occurring there. Ditto with hell. Without any more evidence than religious figures or books (written by man, mind you) all we have to go on is our own sense of common sense and reason.

Mine tells me that it's unconvincing. It will probably stay that way until there's more evidence to change my mind.

 

 

Why? If there was no reproduction then there'd only ever be a handful of people in existence, and why allow that when you can have so many more friends?

 

We would indeed have so many more friends, and that would also increase the chance of the world being populated by sinners, rapists, murderers, tyrants, pedophiles, and a slew of other "hell worthy" people. The fact that this planet has gone to such extremes to adapt every animal on it to survive at least gives us some indication that there most likely isn't something past this life. That's just the evidence that I see.

 

 

Who knows, maybe they did *shrug* If you believe in heaven, you might as well believe that people regularly had chats with God back in the stone age, or something like that.

 

I won't get too far into belief since that's about as personal a topic as you can get. If God exists along with heaven and hell then it shouldn't matter if early man "believed" in him or not, the information should still be sent down from on high as there would have been no way for early man to know about him unless God personally made himself known.

Maybe they did have a concept of an afterlife but I see no reason why it wouldn't have come about any different than in modern times.

[Semi-Nomadic]

We would indeed have so many more friends, and that would also increase the chance of the world being populated by sinners, rapists, murderers, tyrants, pedophiles, and a slew of other "hell worthy" people.

Remember, you are on a forum dedicated entirely to the practice of creating new beings just for the hell of it. :cool:

 

The fact that this planet has gone to such extremes to adapt every animal on it to survive at least gives us some indication that there most likely isn't something past this life. That's just the evidence that I see.

Not really. Evolution isn't some kind of an intelligent process which is supposed to "tell us" something, it's just the simple fact that organisms which don't happen to be fit for the environemt, die, and organisms which just happen to fit, survive. It's simple, logical, and can tell us nothing about the nature of reality itself or the existence of gods.

[Raxter]

Not really. Evolution isn't some kind of an intelligent process which is supposed to "tell us" something, it's just the simple fact that organisms which don't happen to be fit for the environemt, die, and organisms which just happen to fit, survive. It's simple, logical, and can tell us nothing about the nature of reality itself or the existence of gods.

 

Of course it can. It means that whatever "death" is, is not something that we come back from or recover from. This is it. From a ones-and-zeroes mindset you are correct, things live and die, but all along the way they are trying to survive longer than their predecessors. There is a reason for this and a part of that is that this current existence ends with death.

 

We are given no orders or information from on high, our natural instinct is to survive as long as possible. Even barring reproduction in order to ensure our continued existence. If the concept of religion had not been invented we would be putting our combined resources towards that goal or at least not wasting it building massive and intricate buildings with materials that could be put to use in a much more efficient manner than simply making "a nice quiet spot to think about heaven / hell".

 

Is this not evidence enough to convince people of the nature of reality or the (non)existence of gods? I find comfort knowing that I've been given this glorious chance to experience the universe, yet others are so preoccupied with what comes after that they forget about that they are indeed consciously able to make heaven a real thing, here, now, in this plane of existence. This tells me more than anything that this is our chance to do fantastic things! Why concern yourself with the unknowable? Until we die we won't know, so why not deal with what we can currently know?

 

Until Patient Zero lurches from the operating table and provides convincing evidence to the world that there is indeed something after this, then I can only keep my skepticism on the matter. I live (what I consider to be) a "good" life, and if I'm judged in the next life how can any God worth a damn tell me I'm wrong for doing what I thought was right?

[Strangelove]

If life has meaning, then what we do will follow us to the next life.

If it doesn't, then the life we're currently living is all there is, and heaven / hell do not exist.

How does life having a meaning equate to the existence of heaven or hell?

 

Hell? Punishment for eternity? I don't get it. You can get used to anything after a long enough time and I doubt there's a Hell Bureau being run by imps and goblins that are coming up with new ways to make people hurt, burn, or be dismembered.

Punishment doesn't include only physical torture.

 

If there was life after death then reproduction would be meaningless (despite "go forth and prosper")

 

Why? You should probably explain yourself.

 

and this realm of existence we're currently experiencing would be a pointless waste of time.

Again, why?

 

Religion is a human construct developed to control the largest amount of people with the minimal amount of effort.

Now this I disagree with. There are some people that turn to religion for comfort. People that live a real shitty life may take comfort in knowing/believing that there is a much better life awaiting them.

 

Now, im not saying religion hasn't been used to control people, but i am saying that such a thing hasn't always been the case, nor will it always be the case.

 

It's typically for profit and hides behind the guise of love, acceptance, and good faith.

And I suppose you've single handedly experienced this claims of your, yes? Or would I be incorrect in assuming that you're using generalized and quite broad stroke in this picture you're painting?

 

Yet a vast majority of followers and leaders do the exact opposite of this making it not only a human construct but an extremely fallible one at that.

Well of course it's a human construct, it was made by humans, unless you know of one that wasn't. And of course it's fallible; we are just as susceptible to temptation as anyone else. Any human construct is, if given enough time, just as fallible as any other.

 

When I die I will cease to exist. I will not "float in infinite nothingness". I won't burn for eternity or try to earn my angel wings. I won't be reborn as a cockroach or a bean plant. I'll simply cease. I'll be at peace with no disease, mental anguish, or lustful thoughts plaguing my every moment. I'll experience nothing, I'll be nothing, I'll want nothing.

 

THAT is more comforting to me than any sermon or heaven.

Congratulations, you found an answer that comforts you, just like the people that choose religion have.

 

If the concept of religion had not been invented we would be putting our combined resources towards that goal

Ah yes "religion is the reason we dont have X" You could have saved time and just posted this from the start.

 

or at least not wasting it building massive and intricate buildings with materials that could be put to use in a much more efficient manner than simply making "a nice quiet spot to think about heaven / hell".

What a shame that we don't follow ideas like this one. Who needs things like philosophy or law or literature, or art , or anything of the sort? Why waste time just sitting around trying to better understand the world and the people in it right?

 

It's not like religion has ever helped anyone, so why waste time on it right?

 

Is this not evidence enough to convince people of the nature of reality or the (non)existence of gods?

Nope.

 

I find comfort knowing that I've been given this glorious chance to experience the universe, yet others are so preoccupied with what comes after that they forget about that they are indeed consciously able to make heaven a real thing

Everyone's version of heaven may be completely different, if not downright impossible, so no, heaven on this plane is hardly achievable.

 

Why concern yourself with the unknowable? Until we die we won't know, so why not deal with what we can currently know?

because people fear what they have no knowledge of, and so they fill in the blanks as best they can. But clearly this is bad because you dont like it.

 

I live (what I consider to be) a "good" life, and if I'm judged in the next life how can any God worth a damn tell me I'm wrong for doing what I thought was right?

Because what you thought to be right, may not be what is right. Not that this is my belief mindyou. Ignorance of the law is no excuse and whatnot.

[Raxter]

How does life having a meaning equate to the existence of heaven or hell?

It's a question of if our actions affect us in any way after we die. If there isn't a heaven or a hell then our actions right now are meaningless. If our actions are indeed meaningless then that debunks a good chunk of what religion tells us about post-death.

 

Punishment doesn't include only physical torture.

Please explain this more so I may understand what you mean.

 

Why? You should probably explain yourself.

All right I see this is going to be Sisyphus-esque kind of discussion. When a child is born, according to some institutions, the child is going to be tested. For their entire life they will be watched closely and finally judged upon their death. This child has the opportunity to be a great scientist, or actor, or a fantastic sports player. But also he could be like what I mentioned. A rapist, murderer, thief, or a congressman.

I think most would agree that a person is more likely to lead a "life of sin" even if they aren't actively going about raping or stealing or killing. They do a lot of the "minor bad things", after all, no one is perfect.

So this child has now become a man and fathers a child. The child doesn't grow up as part of the institution, but he mimics his father. He isn't necessarily following the rules but he's doing what he considers "forgivable" sins.

The father dies, and he's judged cruelly since he didn't follow the rules.

The child becomes a man and fathers a child. He in turn dies, and he's judged cruelly since he didn't follow the rules. Us having children and reproducing is becoming more and more pointless as there are CERTAINLY more "bad people" in hell then there are "good people" in heaven.

 

This all being if holy scripture is to be taken as the word of God (or Gods). It doesn't matter if you've never been introduced to religion, or if you're the "wrong" religion. Nope, you don't follow religious rules and you go to hell. Your kids go to hell. Your kids kids go to hell. Ad-infinitude.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that if there's "something after this" then what we're doing right now has no purpose. There's no meaning to THIS life if there's a life PAST this one. So what if we do great or evil things? There's another realm of existence after this, who gives a shit about how we relate to others or if we're praised or shunned?

 

Now this I disagree with. There are some people that turn to religion for comfort. People that live a real shitty life may take comfort in knowing/believing that there is a much better life awaiting them.

 

If you're living a good life only because you think heaven awaits you, you're doing it wrong.

If you're tolerating evil, or a "shit life", by wrapping yourself in the blanket of "knowing" there's a better life after this, you're doing it wrong.

This world is happening now. It's going on whether you think happy or evil thoughts. If people prefer to rock in their cradles and choose to not improve their circumstance through action rather than thought then I have no way to debate that. That is their prerogative.

 

And I suppose you've single handedly experienced this claims of yours, yes? Or would I be incorrect in assuming that you're using generalized and quite broad stroke in this picture you're painting?

 

How often do you hear a preacher tell of God's Wrath and of God's love in the same sermon?

How often do you see a church built with the hands of the followers, where they do not pass around a collection plate?

How often do you ask the rifleman with a cross about his neck if he feels he's being true to his faith, or simply choosing to be specifically ignorant about certain bits of his religion?

 

"Not too often" is probably the answer to these. I'm not seeing the practice of what is being preached. When I do see it it, it's not by very many, or for very long.

 

 

Congratulations, you found an answer that comforts you, just like the people that choose religion have

 

Sarcasm is not lost on me, and you can see that the answer is sometimes in the debate against the thing. I come to my conclusion through my experiences on life. I use my own common sense and reason to come to my conclusion whereas I see others blank eyed following a book, or a sermon, that promises eternal pleasure if only they do exactly as they say.

 

because people fear what they have no knowledge of, and so they fill in the blanks as best they can.

 

Then perhaps they should stop living in fear and start investigating it more. Maybe, with concentrated effort, they can fill in the blanks even better then what they're doing right now?

 

-

The rest of your post was simply you making one word answers or little quips so I'll not address those unless you provide substance to them.

 

You're more than your few employable muscles being carried around in your fleshy vehicle of a body that you use to transport your brain to and from your "necessary" work. Maybe there is a heaven, maybe there's a hell, maybe I'm already damned to it and no amount of "good things" can make up for it.

So should I just sit about moping? "Knowing" that I'm going to be eternally damned? That's certainly what many would say. What a shit existence I would start experiencing if I truly believed that!

 

Organized religion let's people content lives, it teaches them it's okay to not be motivated for anything better than following their religion's rules. It doesn't encourage intellectual expansion, it doesn't leave room for debate, it doesn't let people think for themselves, it hardly allows it's followers to question their doctrine, it demands obedience on the fear that if you don't conform, you'll burn. Forever.

I'll hold off on the mental terrorism that implies. The only time I see change is when the organization is in danger of collapsing. Notice how fast the Roman Catholic Church has changed throughout the years? All during times they were facing serious allegations.

 

Look, this world is all I know. This life is all that I'm experiencing. Provide evidence to me that proves heaven or hell to be real and I will reconsider. Until then, they're make-believe concepts created by men.