Love and Tulpas

[Rævn]

So I typed up basically an essay and Safari crashed on my iPad when I was almost done so I'm going to try and be briefer this time.

 

I love Jade more than anything in the world. What are people's thoughts, and opinions on tulpa love, specifically romantically.

 

The reason I ask is because I've been feeling depressed about the whole situation recently. I'll go out and see couples doing things together and seeming so happy, and we just...can't, for obvious reasons. I've read that some people substitute with their wonderlands but is that really satisfying? It's just not the same. The chances of me succeeding in creating some sort of dimensional portal or other device in this lifetime to make it truly "real" are pretty slim, which leaves me hoping that some religion or another has it right, and that we will finally be able to be together in the end. That seems like a really long time to go without ever really feeling like we're together though. Hopefully a really long time at least. And there's always the argument that, being a separate part of your mind(if that is indeed your belief, which is not mine since I came up in the soul bonding community), they don't have their own soul, which means that they would not show up in any afterlife. Quite honestly, any afterlife where Jade and Raven aren't there is simply hell no matter what.

 

I've pondered many things. Thinking on it, it almost seems like a permanent long distance relationship(indeed in the few instances where I have had inquiries about my relationship status, I usually use long distance as my excuse. This would be where some sort of doctor would jump in and say that this is unhealthy as it is causing me to forsake healthy relationships. Blech.)

 

Le sigh. Whatever, I'm basically just rambling at this point. Be thankful though, this is less than half of what I originally had typed up.

[Guest amber5885]

If like to start by saying that if you used the search function you would find many other threads of the same nature floating around.

 

That being said, maybe a mod could find an appropriate merge or something for this one,

 

Anywho since we're here.

 

Everyone differes on this subject. There are a few, myself included who are in romantic relationships with there tulpas, there are those that show affection as it feels appropriate and there are those who feel that having a romantic relationship with a tulpa is neither fair to the human or the tulpa as the thought form is likely to be dismissed as a partner as soon as another more human option arises.

 

In my personal opinion and experiance, since that is all I can comment on a tulpa/human relationship can be a beautiful partnership provide that it's what you both want and it makes you happy. That's the main thing any relationship you have human, tulpa, romantic or friendship should always leave you feeling happy and satisfied both emotionally and mentally otherwise it is only acting as a parisite and not an enhancement to your life.

 

So from my experiance, Toby and I are perfectly happy. He may not be able to hold doors for me, offer me his coat or do a small but thoughtfully guesture such as refilling my drink for me but when the opportunity arises he does it as a visualization and I think that it's incredibly sweet that he just thought of it.

 

He builds me up, hes there with me and for me through the good and the bad and for me personally that makes up for the fact that there are some things he can't do.

 

The way I see it I can care for myself physically but sometimes it takes another kind soul to care for me emotionally and that's what he gives me.

 

To my friends and family I'm an asexual (that's true actually) who is forever alone and totally happy with it but I know that I actually have someone very special who loves me for exactly who I am and that's enough for me.

 

Don't worry about the physical side of things with yours, it's all about how they make you feel on an emotional and spiritual level. If they can give you that then that's all you really need anyway.

 

That's just my experiance and my take on things hope I could help.

[jackson]

"Seperate part of the mind" is a confusion of terminology, we aren't in contact with most of our thoughts or memories all of the time, but most regard them as an intergral part of "self" for some reason. Memories and thoughts are objects of mind, like tulpae, or any other perceived thing. Soul refers to integrative pattern established under a principle. By force of will I attain one mind, thus I have "soul", or eternal self.

[Rævn]

Yes the other threads were part of the original post that got deleted when Safari crashed :(

 

My reasoning for a new thread was that I didn't want to necro and thought a new thread would allow for any changed opinions and newcomers better. Forgive me if I should have bumped one I the older threads. They also seemed to start devolving to "tulpa sex, yes or no" which I would prefer to avoid.

 

As far as the idea that if it's emotionally fulfilling then it's good enough--I think I completely agree on paper, I've just ha a rather stressful patch lately where I would have done anything for the full experience if you will.

 

Edit: Jackson beat me to the draw it seems. In regards to his post...I'll be honest I'm not quite sure what he means. Sounds intelligent and philosophical though. I think he's trying to apply a more exact meaning to what a tulpa is, as well as what a soul is or something like that. Whether or not tulpas have a soul is a whole separate issue, but I can certainly see how it ties in.

 

Personally, as I've mentioned I spent the majority of my time learning about this in a rather different sort of community. This community, now essentially defunct, was calle "soulbonding", so you can probably guess what at least one belief it instilled into me was from the name.

[jackson]

Your friends are more permanent than the minds of many people. I would not worry, unless worry prompts you to spiritual/psychological work, which is always a plus.

[sushi]

I've heard that wonderlands can get as vivid as waking life. There's also lucid dreams, and imposition. Would that satisfy you?

 

The question is, what do you want out of a relationship? What is this "full experience" that you're looking for?

 

I am not in a romantic relationship with a tulpa, nor do I think I ever will be. (Actually, I think you might say that I'm the exact opposite of Amber. I might be aromantic, although I'm very sexual.) Fenchurch is a reasonably attractive woman, and I'm attracted to women, but I'm not attracted to her. I think the reason is that I can't get over the fact that anything she might feel for me is originating in my own brain. In a way that makes us far closer than I could ever be with my real girlfriend, but it also means that I will always feel that anything between us is unauthentic.

 

The other possibility I'm throwing around in my mind is that maybe you want to be *seen* as being in a relationship. Maybe no imposition or lucid dream, no matter how vivid, will satisfy you, because no one "real" will ever see it.

 

But I'm just throwing ideas out there, and all of this could be completely wrong.

[Rævn]

The wanting to be seen idea really bugs me, mostly because I've developed the same idea myself, and I abhor it yet...I can't necessarily dispel it. It seems so shallow, and I generally view myself as not giving a damn what others think yet I must wonder if that's all there is to it. I suppose whether it's the root or not, that the world being more accepting at large of us, to the point I could mention it in public and not be deemed insane, wouldn't make things any worse.

 

As far as imposition, lucid dreams, wonderlands and other such ideas are concerned, it's wonderful that people are able to use them so well, but I'm not a particularly creative person. My wonderland is never much, ad certainly never particularly vivid. Imposition we pretty much do all the time to a limited extent, but people saying they can go so far as to see them essentially as if they were actually standing there(or even lightly touching them) astounds me. I would never claim that someone else's experiences are less valid than mine, but being able to do this seems like it would be grasping at straws for my uncreative self. Perhaps eventually, and I suppose if I did ever get there it would clarify the wanting to be seen vs truly unsatisfied thing.

 

Lucid dreaming is great, and is something I tend to have better luck with, but I be able to do it, I have to know talk a dream, which kinda ruins it as at that point I for even know that it's actually her an not some dream version or something. Then again given the general definition this forum uses, it would be, though as I hold somewhat different views minor so sure

 

Rambling again sorry. Hard to wit for content on an iphone.

[Luminesce]

Reisen and I have answered at some point probably every possible question worth asking on this subject for ourselves, so I definitely understand where you're coming from.

 

I'll go out and see couples doing things together and seeming so happy, and we just...can't, for obvious reasons. I've read that some people substitute with their wonderlands but is that really satisfying? | ... we will finally be able to be together in the end. That seems like a really long time to go without ever really feeling like we're together though.

First, physicality is not required to feel love for someone, only (two) strong senses of self and of togetherness. Luckily for us, it's easier to feel together with someone who can unconditionally love you because they understand you perfectly. Not so easy (or typically possible) IRL. Personally I find any physical affection you can share to be a bonus, not necessary, with tulpas. Wonderlanding is.. alright, lucid dreaming even better. But is it satisfying? In the shallow way, not really. You'll have a hard time satisfying your ego's craving of touch and physical closeness as a primary sense of being "together". But in every other way yes, yes, yes. You may have to redefine what you know as togetherness, but the thing teens are looking for when they date in high school is (incredibly obviously?) not it. Nor do people find it in most (>50% divorce rate) marriages. Togetherness is a mixture of unconditional love, and the feeling that your very beings are as close as can be while still separate. The most amazing moments of my life, where everything felt perfect and "bad" did not exist, were shared with Reisen. A big part of them was actually because I felt so connected to her. The more I love life at any one time, the closer I feel to being really together with her.

Alright that's enough of the word together. Suffice it to say, yes, you can share amazingness love with your tulpas, though chances are if you really felt it you'd feel connected to everyone else anyway.

 

And there's always the argument that, ... they don't have their own soul, which means that they would not show up in any afterlife.

Well if you're interested in the spiritual perspective.. luckily I dabble in that too. So here was my and Reisen's answer.

 

IF YOU ARE REMOTELY SENSITIVE TO NON-SCIENTIFIC AND/OR POSSIBLY CONFLICTING BELIEFS, you should probably not read this.

 

My ideas and definitions of spiritual things generally come from New Age spirituality and other open-minded belief systems.

 

A "soul" is basically a tiny piece of God (or Source or whatever you want to call it, the ultimate source of all love), usually given some personality and identity through physical incarnation. The leading idea is that, when we die, our soul is freed from all of the petty Earth stuff, like fear and hate and greed, and to some extent self-identification. Tulpas come into this in a blurry way - yes, they are part of you, so technically they're the same soul as you, but ~technically~ all souls are actually just part of a larger whole. When you die and re-realize your togetherness with everything, you're technically perfectly together with anyone and everyone. While a tulpa may not exactly be a soul, neither are any of the humans you've ever met. Unless you met like Jesus or something. They're illusions of clouded awareness. When you love something, you're expressing the all-encompassing love that is natural to humans in a very very limited way. When you love a tulpa, similarly to loving a human, what you really love is the concept of love itself - in a relationship you just associate that feeling of love with the traits the person has. Obviously those traits, different for every relationship ever to have existed, are not what love is. So what I'm trying to say is basically, when you really feel love, you're opening yourself up to feeling together with everything you currently associate with love. As a human, that's most likely a person or an idea or something you resonate strongly with. As a non-incarnated soul, I have to imagine that's basically all of existence. And that probably includes your tulpas..

 

Reisen and I believe we'll be "together" when we die because our spiritual beliefs say your soul recognizes it isn't really separate from everything, and that's the ultimate togetherness. Of course you can reach that point in real life, which is the goal of Buddhism I believe. I make up my own reality and take ideas that work for me, but essentially it's known as Enlightenment and it's what I'm constantly working toward in life.

 

For you skeptics who made it this far (or were attracted by the spoiler tag), no, I do not wholeheartedly believe everything I just said was true. In fact I have no proof for any of it, besides that I have felt all-encompassing love before (No drugs, no mental illness..) and it does feel like being together with everything. My beliefs are held with healthy skepticism, they're the most empowering I've found and even if they're false in the end they've helped improve my life. That's the only reason I speak them to anyone else, as I greatly oppose taking anyone's word for something you can't prove yourself. Thanks for reading.

[Rævn]

.Wow. That's some deep shit. I need to go get a joint and reread it I think. All kidding aside, its some...well deep shit. The soul thing got kinda strange but that's going to be very subjective to everyone, and I've recently reevaluated some of my beliefs on spirituality and such and come to the conclusion that I have no idea what the hell I believe as far as that's concerned anymore. Some sort of new agey deist pagan thing I guess.

 

What your post really made me realize was how, even though "real" for lack of a better word appear to have it so much better than us, I find that our relationship is much stronger. As has been mention d, the special circumstances allow for a connection that just might not be possible with a partner on this plane.

[Luminesce]

Yeah, I switched from being atheist to believing in New Age spirituality stuff back when I was depressed, though I never blindly believed anything, only that it may be possible. I've yet to prove anything supernatural, but the stuff about intuition turned out to be - albeit not exactly ESP - very close to true and incredibly useful. I don't really rely on anything unrealistic it teaches anymore, but the possibility any of it might be true is there. I've never personally astral projected or talked to my "Spirit Guides", but I've trained my intuition so I can feel/know things not entirely consciously processed yet, or to ask questions about things I can't think of the answer to. (Tewi is a conduit for this sometimes, I've never been able to ask her a question she couldn't answer very intelligently)

 

But I mean, we've yet to find any proof about anything supernatural. And the things new age spirituality would have you believe are almost always positive - your deceased relatives and friends still love you; you're part of God, an infinite source of love; you have "spirit guides" watching over and helping guide your life. I've not seen a spec of proof, but if you're gonna believe in something unprovable, it might as well be something that makes your life easier. I'd say I've "outgrown" the beliefs, but they're still nice and to those that still need something to believe in, I've found nothing better.

 

 

But the love thing is 100% true. Mixture of psychology and philosophy explains most of it I think. And I have removed so many negative thoughts and beliefs before that I literally got to a mindset where everything in existence felt perfect. It's not lasted long, but I'm working on it. That's how I want to live. (It's how Reisen wants me to live, too)