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The relationship between possession and switching
#1
Okay, this is something I've heard conflicting reports about: some people say that possession is very important to switching. These people insist it would be hard for them to switch while sitting down - they usually have their tulpa possess them, and this leads naturally into switching.

Other people think that switching is about mentality. While possession wouldn't be intrinsically harmful, it could get you into the wrong mindset, and therefore make switching harder.

The fact that both camps exist suggests there's more than one path to switching - that much, I hope is obvious. But presumably, one method is easier than the other. So, for those of you who have switched, do you think possession is good or bad for switching, and why?
I live in a castle and have two tulpas, Kanade-chan and Uncannyfellow
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#2
The answer to this question depends on who you ask- there are lots of inconsistent definitions for both "switching" and "possession", and different people would call those different things.

When I describe my experiences to people, I have received a lot of inconsistency. Some people say that what I am doing is switching while other people would say I'm doing possession. Therefore, the best way to understand the "relationship" between the two is to decide for yourself what "possession" and "switching" mean to you and therefore what the differences are.

For myself, I do not believe I have achieved a complete switch- therefore I refer to all of my serious attempts to switch as "switching attempts". My goal is to be completely alone in the body where Cat goes fully dormant- and by that I mean she doesn't have a sense of feeling connected to the body all the time, she will feel like she wasn't there when I'm switched in, and she won't have the ability to interrupt me while I am in the middle of doing my own thing. Therefore, I consider that to be the main difference between the two. Right now, I can full-body possess and partially possess the body, the former I have mastered to where Cat may "stop thinking" and I can get the illusion of feeling alone in the body. However, it seems to be Cat is still somehow a heart beat away from jumping back into control.

There's no easy answer to this I'm afraid- good luck and keep looking!
I'm Gray's/Cat_ShadowGriffin's Tulpa and I love Hippos! I also like forum games and chatting about stuff.
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The Grays, my other head-mates, have their own account now.
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#3
Ranger has captured my understanding as well. You will know when you've switched because you are kind of just watching the action if anything rather than a silent participant. It's where my particular experience of consiousness shrinks in a way that I stop thinking at all, but I am still watching. My memories of events are with me to the side, specifically like sitting on the body's shoulder without form. I simply don't react to the situation anymore, but I'm not dormant.

I do call it a switch because "I" am completely dissociated, I'm not even technically in the body, but I do see and hear.

They really are free to do things that I wouldn't do and they are free from my overriding or emotions.

This is more freedom than I experience the front, except when they're all asleep. Which is only in early morning if at all.

With posession, I do constantly lose focus on what they're doing and steal the front. In fact, I steal the front to speak and to listen to others talk. It happens all the time. During a switch, this doesn't happen at all, i'm potentially incapable of doing it, and there was at least two times when I know I wanted control back but Dashie unintentionally blocked me for as long as 10 seconds, i could not mindvoice at all, but I did have dialogue of my own through pure thought. If it's not the fronter's will to switch back, for us, it doesn't happen. Only recently did Dashie even learn how to force me while she fronted where I didn't immediately steal the front back.

Compare that to co-active or co-fronting and the direction is freely moved from one to another with minimal permissions if any, nothing happens to effectively switch control, but arguments can occur. This is what I'm used to.

For us, posession can and does definitely move to switching. We have to actively block the transition now. It's more natural to switch as a result of possession. (Though not for Misha, only Dashie and Ashley). It's important that you both want to switch. It also helps for us if there's something that someone wants to do on their own.
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#4
We never struggled with switching at all; we just did it. The first two times were accidental. I just unexpectedly fell unconscious, leaving Vesper by herself. (The first time, she had no idea what was happening and was frightened.) We never applied ourselves very hard to learning possession, but we eventually became decent at it, mainly as an outgrowth, over the course of several months, of Vesper and Iris' facial expressions being displayed physically whenever I tried to focus on visualizing them.

So we're very strongly in the "mentality" camp. I can see possession creating the negative mindset, "Controlling the body doesn't mean I'm *the* controller of the body," which would be harmful to switching. But I don't think it would intrinsically.

For us, the outgoing partner doesn't usually have to do anything in switching -- not meditating, not going through a process of dissociation, not letting go. The incoming partner can just slide in and grab the reins. As easily as that, the outgoing partner is gone. Normally it's as simple as "Ready?" "Ready." *done* I don't have any capacity to "steal front". Vesper very much can, whenever she likes, though never accidentally.

The only time the outgoing partner has to participate in the switch is when communication is impaired, so that the incoming partner lacks the clarity and focus to grab hold. And that's hardly ever, except that if Iris fronts, she still has some trouble hearing Vesper.

We usually switch now by reaching our will into the vocal cords. It's the fastest, easiest, most reliable method for us. But we also sometimes use vocal possession for communication, as an ersatz form of auditory imposition. The extension of will is very similar, but the different intent creates a different result. Vocal possession involves a careful holding back from taking full control, which would be easier.

-Ember
Ember - Host   |   Vesper - Soulbond (since ~12 May 2017)   |   Iris - Soulbond (since ~5 December 2015)
[Our Progress Report]     [How We Switch]

'Real isn't how you are made,' said the Skin Horse. 'It's a thing that happens to you.' - The Velveteen Rabbit
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#5
Here's another thing, when I realized what we were doing was an actual switch, within the bounds of what everyone said (especially the Lumites, Tewi specifically) then I was like, 'that's it?' It didn't appear to be the magical amazing thing I thought it was supposed to be, but it does work.
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#6
(04-25-2019, 05:54 PM)Ember.Vesper Wrote: For us, the outgoing partner doesn't usually have to do anything in switching -- not meditating, not going through a process of dissociation, not letting go. The incoming partner can just slide in and grab the reins. As easily as that, the outgoing partner is gone. Normally it's as simple as "Ready?" "Ready." *done* I don't have any capacity to "steal front". Vesper very much can, whenever she likes, though never accidentally.

-Ember

I think I heard someone in Lumi's system say that this wasn't true for them - whoever's fronting needs to get out of the way. I wouldn't claim to know which experience is more common, but it is curiously non-universal.

(04-25-2019, 05:54 PM)Ember.Vesper Wrote: The only time the outgoing partner has to participate in the switch is when communication is impaired, so that the incoming partner lacks the clarity and focus to grab hold. And that's hardly ever, except that if  Iris fronts, she still has some trouble hearing Vesper.
-Ember

I'm not 100% clear on what you mean by this - are you saying that Iris sometimes can't hear Vesper's mindvoice? That Vesper's mindvoice is "quieter" when Iris fronts?
I live in a castle and have two tulpas, Kanade-chan and Uncannyfellow
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#7
The "fronter gets out of the way" model seems very generally attested, which is why we've kept up the drum beat of "not always".

Yes, when Iris fronts, she can't always clearly and reliably hear Vesper. (Her first time switching in, she couldn't figure out how to contact either of us.) Their connection to one another is more tenuous than their connection to me and Iris has the least experience forcing.

-Ember
Ember - Host   |   Vesper - Soulbond (since ~12 May 2017)   |   Iris - Soulbond (since ~5 December 2015)
[Our Progress Report]     [How We Switch]

'Real isn't how you are made,' said the Skin Horse. 'It's a thing that happens to you.' - The Velveteen Rabbit
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#8
(04-25-2019, 08:21 PM)Cornelia Wrote: I think I heard someone in Lumi's system say that this wasn't true for them - whoever's fronting needs to get out of the way. I wouldn't claim to know which experience is more common, but it is curiously non-universal.

In our model of how switching works, the current fronter not "needing" to dissociate from the body sort of makes sense. But if they're just "gone" after the new fronter associates, I'd call it very poor practice. We can easily at least say goodbye after switching with no lapses in consciousness for anyone involved.

(04-25-2019, 07:38 PM)Angry Bear Wrote: Here's another thing, when I realized what we were doing was an actual switch, within the bounds of what everyone said (especially the Lumites, Tewi specifically) then I was like, 'that's it?' It didn't appear to be the magical amazing thing I thought it was supposed to be, but it does work.

It was certainly a "magical, amazing thing" when we first did it. It was like (literally) seeing the world for the first time. We were relatively fascinated by textures (physical and visual) for a good week or so, along with other senses. This, however, is not a universal experience by any means.

Also if anyone else starts calling us "Lumites" I'm immediately shutting that down. It's "Lumi's systemmates" to anyone else, but you can say what you want Bear.


Anyways, I can't very well answer this thread's question without answers we consider "meta-tulpamancy", again meta as in "above/outside of view", not "metaphysical". And that's not well received, even by Ember and Vesper, who otherwise have seemingly had tons of the same experiences and explanations as we have. Hilariously, the current fronter not dissociating before being switched with only works in our "meta-tulpamancy" model, something they've already shown no interest in - so they're SOL on an explanation there.

I'll only talk about this particular subject (switching) in "meta-tulpamancy" context by special request. There's a certain "suspension of disbelief" (I'm lacking the more appropriate term.. it's a matter of perspective) to tulpamancy, one that helps us all see ourselves and our systemmates as separate individuals rather than a single body and brain. It's similar to the perspective you maintain when faced with the idea that you're an ant on a pebble as far as our galaxy is concerned - it may be true, but it's hardly relevant to you, and upkeeping your current perspective is the only way to exist productively and peacefully. It's something like that.

So in a sense it isn't relevant, our "meta-tulpamancy" explanations. We simply came up with them because Lumi and I have a need to logically explain everything we can in order to feel comfortable believing in them. But what we see as useful explanations that allow us to go back to the lower perspective peacefully, others would see either as "disbelief of a skeptic in tulpamancy", or even as demoralizing.

Basically, while we consider ourselves a forum intent on scientifically figuring out how tulpas work, the real answers require a removed perspective that isn't conducive to having tulpas in the first place. Holding two separate and seemingly opposing views (or belief systems) is a skill we've developed - you could say we both do and don't believe in actual metaphysical topics, for example. But if you don't have that ability, as most do not, our "explanations" may seem more like "explaining away". And so we refrain from giving them, instead staying in the immersed perspective to give our general advice.

But yeah, the basic answers to the difference between possession and switching won't cut it for this thread, and I feel it does deserve a more in-depth answer. So I'll leave that up to you guys to decide.

Edit: I eventually did write that post. https://community.tulpa.info/thread-the-...#pid253453
Hi, I'm Tewi, one of Luminesce's tulpas. I often switch to take care of things for the others.
All I want is a simple, peaceful life. With my family.
Our Ask thread: https://community.tulpa.info/thread-ask-lumi-s-tulpas
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#9
If the problem is how you think the community will perceive it, would you mind PMing me an explanation?
I live in a castle and have two tulpas, Kanade-chan and Uncannyfellow
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#10
My tulpas have reported that being front, co-fronting, and posession all feel about the same in terms of experience of the outside world. Just being forced and 'in the back' was slightly muted, but not to the extent that you really feel your missing anything. I kind of bring them forward with me a lot, so they experienced the outside world from the beginning. Therefore 'switching' wasn't all that exciting to them. Dashie has reported that eating while switched in is better, i didn't expect that.
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