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What can I do about an advanced Thoughtform?
#1
Here i am again, asking the same old question. I have a thoughtform that I labeled a soulbond (but she's not a tulpa level thoughtform... i hope.)

Here's an exchange we had previously, and i included in my PR.

First i summomed an average advanced thoughtform of mine, she's vocal level 4. I kept this here as an example of one of a dozen or so thoughtforms at this level.
How do you feel?
She thought for a moment, "i don't know what you mean."
I mean, what emotions do you have currently?
"None."

Parroting test: I made her mad, and she was mad. I made her happy and she was happy. (Good luck trying that on a Tulpa.) I had her walk around, wave her arms, and smile. No issues puppeting her.

What are you thinking right now?
I blanked my mind and listened, there was no answer, no thought, nothing, just emptiness.

What am i thinking right now?
She pondered, but had no guess. There was no obvious connection that she could access. In the very beginning, like day two, i asked my tulpas what i was thinking, there was never any hesitation.

Surprise me.
"What?"
Do something, anything, whatever you think would surprise me.
She shot her hands forward and said ,"Boo!". That was legitimately surprising.

So you see my point. She even thought enough to say 'hi, how are you?' to Misha (whom she'd talked to previously on many occasions). I wasn't intending that either, there was no puppeting there.

Then as a control, i asked Misha:
What are you thinking right now?
"That i love you and that you're the best thing that ever happened to me," said platonically.
You too Misha.

Then i summoned my most advanced non-tulpa thoughtform (call her R).


She walked into the room chipperly, "hello, hey guys."
Hello R, we have some questions for you, can i call you R for this discussion?
"Whatever."

How do you feel?
"Fine."
There was no hesitation.
What emotion do you have currently?
She thought for a moment, "Content? Happy-ish?"

Puppeting test: I made her mad, and she said, "What's worng with you?!" with a furrowed brow and an agressive stance. (She's very animated.)

Then i made her happy, and she let out a loud contented sigh.

What are you thinking right now?
She thought, she brought her hand to her chin, she almost said something, then she just said, "nothing."

What am i thinking right now?
Surprisingly I was thinking 'apples', she guessed correctly.
So i tried again.
I was thinking 'battleship' she had no hesitation and guessed correctly.

Surprise me.
She said, "no thanks, can i go back now?"

You're free to go back, you will have no memory of this encounter, but a vague sence of having fun and enjoying yourself with friends.

Then she left. Her apparent skills and free will do not concern me because i felt no emotion from her, she had no presence of her own that i could tell. Though she was responding to what i was thinking even outside the test, i wouldn't put past my unconscious mind to try to trick me. Remember who's in control is the key here. I could clearly set her mood and if i wanted her to dance, she would dance. I had to give her emotions of carefree happiness and lower her inhibitions, but she did dance.

Where my other thoughtforms are a true weightless puppet, i felt resistance from R. Earlier i asked her specifically if she wanted to stay, and she said no. It may be one of those things like Ashley, where even if i wanted to make her a tulpa, her character's desire is to be with her friends, and in R's case, in her world. Gwen also expressed wanting to be with her friends in her world when i asked her earlier.



Which brings us to yesterday:
October 24, 2018 185 days

I know this sounds really stupid coming from me, but I have a duty and a compulsion to document everything.

I was eating lunch and felt a feeling, it was like a wish, and the thought of depression came into me, but not my own. It was a longing sort of feeling and it came from my Sacral Chakra. (I say this not because i believe in Chakras, but as i mentioned earlier,  aparently my brain has decided to express the emotions of my tulpas Dashie, Misha, and Ashley from the Throat, Heart, and Solar Plexus Chakras respectively) this 'alien feeling' came from below my belly button, but not my stomach (where Ashley expresses emotion).

So with this feeling, I felt an urge to hug my thoughtform, R. So I summoned her and she came in wanting a hug. So I got on my knees (she's pretty short) and hugged her.

Then i said, 'you are not a tulpa, you will never be tulpa,' and my Sacral Chakra lit up with emotions of sadness and fear.

"I want to stay," she said and looked at me with sad puppydog eyes.
"You can't." I said back with a determined yet consoling glance.

I looked to Dashie and she said, "i'm not saying anything," and looked down. I looked to Ashley and she furrowed her brow in concern. I looked to Misha and she looked expressionless to me and just said, "hm."

I told R, "you will not remember any of this, you do not want to be my tulpa, and you will go back with the memories of three months of happy life in your own world."

I felt her. I felt her presence. I felt her emotions. I didn't think alien emotions could be parroted. I can't force emotions to arbitrarily come from a random spot in my body. So the encounter was stunning.

She nodded and left, but while i said this Misha started crying. When R left, i started to feel like i wanted to cry too.

Following conversation with
[Ashley]
[Dashie]
[Misha]

We can't have another tulpa here.
I looked to Misha, who was obviously sad now, i felt her sadness. She put on her judge robe and white powdered wig and swung her gaval on the desk that spawned in front of her with a loud tap tap. (Aparently she wanted to start this like a formal trial.)
Dashie said sternly this isn't happening.
Ashley looked at me with a very serious expression, we don't have time for this now anyway.
Misha blipped back and walked over, giving me a tight hug, we have to resist. When we have time we'll talk okay?
no, we won't
We don't need this drama.
exactly, and we can't
25% (what Ashley means is that we have roughly a 25% chance to succeed as a system. There are a lot of reasons for this, if you read my PR you know some of them.)
Would that go down, or would that mean failure?
*shrug*
So what color would R's text be? (I said as a bad joke.)
stop, this conversation is over
Okay Dashie.

Well my good ole brain, desiring nothing but more drama to feed on, has decided that it would bypass my previous ruling and my reasons why R is not just an advanced thoughtform.

The key determining factors were:
1. I couldn't feel a presence. (Not only could i now feel a presence yesterday, but she contacted me from stasis.)
2. She didn't want to stay. (She expressed that exactly, 'i want to stay'.)
3. There was no emotional bleed. (There was definitely that yesterday.)
4. Can she be puppeted? (She listened to me and did everything i asked, not sure, don't want to test that just now.)
So here's the last holdout:
5. My golden ticket to prevent R from becoming a tulpa, i don't want it to happen.

I know this is all very awkward for my system, but if this helps others, then it was worth exposing myself to the possible lectures on system size and time management.

So now that i've revealed this:

Q1: Is she still just an advanced NPC unless I flip the switch for #5 above?
Q2: If she is a proto-tulpa, can morally I just leave her in stasis? (she's there now).
Q3: Can I still summon her for her book editing and writing like I used to do?

I'm going to answer my own questions first.

Q1 - I think so, but she is very advanced.
Q2 - Yes, because it takes intent and time forcing to truly have a tulpa.
Q3 - I better leave her and carry on without her in my book series (i think i can).

Your thoughts?
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#2
When applied to the Grays, the 4/5 also applies:

1) The Grays have their own presence. Chrome one time interrupted me in the middle of a math class (before he was declared a Gray).
2) Some of the Grays expressed interest in becoming Tulpas.
3) Talking to the Grays can be hard. Conversations with them leave my crying at the end more times then you would imagine.
4) It is really hard for me to tell if I'm puppeting them or not. I can tell when they feel more "real" than other times.
5) None of them are Tulpas.

This is my belief on how Tulpas work- A Tulpa starts off as a part of your brain somewhere and then is trained to believe it is its own person. With enough time and re-enforcement, that brain becomes its own sentient person and while connected to everything else in your mind.

This is how I believe Characters/Servitors/Grays/"Maybe Tulpas?" works- They are an extension of yourself but they have connections to subconscious thoughts / processes you may not be connected to at the moment. Therefore, one of my Grays Blue can surprise me because he is expected to be "sweet", so he pulls out some subconscious thought and says something sweet I don't expect. Like Tulpas, these guys can be triggered just by thinking about them. Therefore, it's possible a subconscious thought or trigger can summon their presence (ex. I may have been thinking about some of Chrome's "appearances" or "God" and that triggered him at the time.)

Here's where I figured out how connected the Grays really are to me: I was talking to Dark Gray for a little while and I realized he should have remembered something but he didn't, because I myself couldn't remember. However, this is just one of many revealing quirks the Grays gave off:
  • The Grays don't seem aware of each other's presences unless I am aware of their presences.
  • If I forget (and Ranger forgets) about a certain Gray, none of the other Grays go to me and point out his absence. Honestly, there's a bunch of them, and I can't talk to them all at once.
  • Deviations are in line with my subconscious expectations. Do they want magic powers because I want them to have magic powers? Since going 1-on-1 or 2-on-1, why do individual Grays suddenly want to socialize when I am going through a time where I regret not letting them socialize more often?
  • The Grays only ask "the right questions". If I expect something to bother a Gray, they will ask about it, but if it is a miscellaneous detail or topic, they won't. Ranger would randomly start talking about what we talked about last time when I would be too focused on whatever else, surprising me.
  • The Grays echo my emotions, including my anxiety, where Ranger is either resilient to it or has his own emotions about a particular issue. We do share emotions, but not like how I am connected to the Grays.
  • This isn't really much of a quirk, but it reencforces the Gray/Ranger divide. The Grays don't think about stuff like "what's my favorite ____" or "what am I going to do for the rest of my life" because the only reason they would think those questions is either if I am thinking about them thinking that or if they truely were trying to learn and develop as individuals.
It's tricky because these kinds of thoughtforms can seem sentient and pull it off fairly well. They are also lovable/memorable and it's easy to want to keep them around. I had the desire to keep the Grays around because I hated the idea of getting rid of them. I spent a lot of time sorting this out when I first showed up on the forums, and after a lot of inner debate I settled on this conclusion.

To answer your 3 questions:
1)"Flipping the switch" would require forcing her like you would any other Tulpa, but essentially yes. That's how Ranger was created.
2) I don't think the symbolic act of "stasis" is really necessary. When I'm not thinking about the Grays, I just assume they are back in their offices (like auto warp). I think it's fine to assume that Gwen and Ranger (not my Tulpa) will simply re-appear in their respective universes and will appear once you think about them again.
3) As for your characters Gwen and Ranger, it's fine to chat with them as long as you remember rule #5. If talking to them directly bothers you, it may make it easier for you if you take a third person perspective and just observe them. I do it to the Grays sometimes, taking the form of a void or a camera perspective and watching the Grays do whatever.
My Wonderland form minus the glasses and the fur. I'm not a hippo, I promise.
I sometimes speak in pink and Ranger sometimes speaks in blue (if it's unmarked and colored assume it's Ranger). He loves to chat.

My other Tulpas have their own account now.
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#3
That's really good Cat!
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#4
"...Surprise me.
She said, "no thanks, can i go back now?"

You're free to go back, you will have no memory of this encounter, but a vague sence of having fun and enjoying yourself with friends...."

This interests me, on multiple levels. I am probably going to ramble, and though I don't intend criticism, there is a thought in my head that I am trying to work out that may feel like an objection, but I am trying to push into just an observation, as I truly don't want it to hold an emotional charge, but just the thing has multiple potential charges and a I see a range of potential reactions... so, you, in your words, you "summoned your most advanced, non-tulpa thought form..." Just saying that means this 'subject' is not sentient, because only 'tulpas' are sentient? And yet, the capture and release event is concluded with a 'hypnotic' like suggestion to forget/remember, which is tantamount to the recognition of 'subject's' feelings. Can one have feelings with out sentience... I am of the opinion, yes, but I almost want to conclude there is sentience here, and that you recognize or entertain sentience at some level for this 'subject.' My first reaction was, "oh, that's exactly what the aliens told me when I was abducted as a kid" (catch and release by 'superior' beings who could care less about my level of sentience or my level of enthusiasm in cooperating with their agenda, as they had a task to perform and I was no different to them than a cat is to me, and if I want to pick up my cat and pet him or give him medication, well, it's indifferent to me whether he is in the mood for such activity, and though I may talk nicely to him, I am 'superior' in that instance and I will win that.)

It seems to me that mind is a composite of activities, with multiple entities, all of which have their own level of sentience/lucidity/awareness and that for each it waxes and wanes per cycle or circumstantial need or context. There is a really good chapter in "Lucid Dreaming: gateways to inner self,' Robert wagoner, discussing whether or not dream characters are sentient, or NPC kind of entities... There is one psychological theory that holds everything in the dream is 'you.' Clearly, 'you' doesn't necessarily mean 'you' as in your primary personality interface, and so if there is a you that is more you than you, and it is the medium in which all the other 'programs' operate, then they are all consciously you, though there awareness would be limited to their personality filter necessary to keep them operational to their delegated tasks, which doesn't mean lack of sentience per say, it just means awareness is limited. Even we, in our waking state have degrees of awareness, and so we may be walking along mindlessly, come into contact with a giant wasp nest which puts us suddenly in very aware state and we retreat back slowly and then run like hell... We weren't less sentient, we were just not focused... And so, as I grapple with the concepts of multiplicity and this adventure I have embarked on, I keep coming up with this idea that it doesn't matter to me if a 'subject' is tulpa not tulpa or sentient not sentient...

And so, your suggestion on catch and release, I found positively kind... As it was a recognition for other and that you interrupted them from their thing, even if it wasn't a thing, or even if they weren't really intruded upon... So, is this really an existential question, because it looks like you're operating on the side of the equation that it's sentient. I suppose you could just be error-ing on the side of possibility, but isn't that the same thing? Oh, as to answering the question 'what to do...' I think you're already implementing a great solution.
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#5
It does, and i don't want to admit it because i can't let my other tulpas down by accepting another. So you see my crisis? I know you understand the symbolism here.
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#6
OH, but, Sir, your strategy is perfect. You don't even have to employ stasis. You catch/interact, in a very direct limited fashion, from the perspective of 'parent' or 'system guardian' assuring 'subject' that their function is absolutely critical at the subconscious level where they have been. Further, you recognize, that in the life of all entities, sometimes we need an intervention, and that was what her experience actually was... There was intervention, an act of love and kindness, but it's not her time and she has other mission objectives to accomplish, and so JUST like a person who has experienced an NDE being told by their 'higher self' "You must go back, you're not finished yet,' you are not only serving yourself, your system mates, but you're serving her higher purpose. This is okay. Your interaction, though brief, was appropriate, and it was a learning experience for all of you. This is not a problem, or failure. If you stubbed you're toe, it is okay to do an intervention, check in with your toe and decide the level of interaction necessary to return toe to normal status, but at some point, you simply cease to be aware of toe, not because you hate your toe, but because, well, that's somebody's else's function, like maybe the heel. So, you got this.
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#7
I guess this turned into something else entirely. The short answer is, i will keep her in stasis and call her when needed. It's somewhat of an inner battle of will, but the clear answer is, she's not a tulpa, no big deal.

Thank you all for your responses, i think it's mostly resolved in that i know what to do, i.e. leave her the way she is for the good of my system.

Meandering conjecture and esoteric blog style ramblings follow.

I do desperately want to believe that. But she keeps coming back. Her presence is secure within me whether i ignore it or not. As you say, it is fair to her, but i see a deeper meaning in her sudden interest to 'stay with me'.

I recently had an 'ah ha!' moment.

I see these people (my tulpas) as starting with a seed that came from my mind. My story aside, all stages of their development is clearly an effort to supply me with something that i needed. 'The tulpas want to please you and give you what you need.' What else does that? Dreams. (At least to me.) They give me scenarios, ideas, fulfillment of notions that i lack, and only in those times in my life that i lacked them.

In my case i needed such opposing things from each of them, that to have all that in just one would be odd to say the least. In their simplified essence they are logic, security, and compassion.

If my thinking is making any sense so far, i believe dreams can also fulfill these missing needs. For example, my need for affection came to me in dreams, both lucid and otherwise. Having gained tulpas like this to work out those issues while awake. Any dreams where i would have received affection (sex dreams or otherwise) have dissapeared completely. My tulpas fulfilled my subconsious need for affection, thus the dreams are not needed anymore.

The dreams i have left are opportunistic dreams, fighting dreams, disaster dreams, and dreams about my future. Having lost all the flavor of kindness, devotion, and comfort, now seemingly left with turmoil and scenes of devastation. Good and bad. If I'm reading them right, i have that need to overcome dispite turmoil, or face turmoil that o am ignoring. Nightmares have increased by a large proportion because of subject matter that i guess i need to face. (I rarely had nightmares before, even during dark times.)

This powerfull thoughtform represents turmoil? My need for turmoil? She is a very damaged individual by her birthright and by the books that describe her life (which i wrote). No character in my life has ever had so much effort devoted to then. She is damaged but strong enough to face that past and defeat it in light of the worst, horrific past. She takes it in stride and continues.

This character has faced death, impossible odds, living under the worst conditions at times, in hiding due to a past that was in no way her fault. Yet she continues on the right path and works hard regardless of that. She happens to find people to talk her out of ending it all, again and again. At this point in her story she is faced with yet another period of abject sadness and hopelessness. My intent is to fix that for her but i haven't had the inspiration to do that yet. The thoughtform R, says that she only starred in those books, not thar she is that person, so that's another sign that she is tulpa-like, but the truth is, i don't believe her. Because to believe her makes her split from that character into yet another character.

Turmoil follows her, keeps happening to her, but her last book, the book i haven't written will be a reward for past suffering, a reunion of past friends, the reconciliation of her life, and her life returned to her again in the nick of time.

As a person she would be depression and drama incarnate, damage bound, and her story is to thrive in the face of adversity. (Call it personality forced i guess?)

My dreams tell me, fight, beat your worst fears, live and thrive dispite a bad hand delt in life. This is what she would personify.

To deny her tulpa status isn't an act of kind consideration, but protection.  No doubt why my protector is so dead set against her, my compassionate one would welcome her to help her, and my intellectual would use her as an opportunity to fix me, but she is wary and she also understands the difficulty of letting her in. On every level, letting her in would be a profound struggle, and dangerous.

My logical tulpa has been hinting at a challenge to come, and she won't tell me what it is or how to overcome it, but i know she knows. I'm not calling her a liar; i know she is doing what she must to help me. Just as the personification of my subconsious mind said. How apt  of him.

I would have to 'fix' her you see, if you could follow this. I feel she has my problems, so if i can fix her, maybe i can fix myself? She's brilliant, she's compassionate, she's a fierce protector of her friends, she can do things with her purely human body and mind that others can't touch. Does she need to be fixed to have a happy life? No. She needs be fixed to thrive dispite an adverse life, in a world where adverse things will continue to happen to her. Such is life in reality. No doubt why I strive to avoid reality i think. I'm quite happy in ignorance, but i know too much now.

On the surface she can be accepted into society, make friends, she can be happy at times, but she continues to lose everything, and it's mostly not her fault, though she takes risks to fux herself. So she often becomes a loner to avoid losing anyone else. But she needs others, friends, because without them she withers and falls back into depression. Ironically, she gains allies and friends, only to eventually lose everything she worked so hard to keep, then blames herself and her damage in a more metaphoric way than i do, but still, we are very similar.

I had no idea just how similar we were when i wrote her books. Now that i can see at this level of clarity, i am certain that i wrote my life down in her books. Her story is my metaphoric autobiography.

So.

Would anyone suggest (solarchariot especially) that i should avoid her or accept her as a tulpa?

If she was fixed, she would be an ideal companion, but i have enough ideal companions, too many in fact. To entertain her status as a tulpa would clearly, and by definition, throw my system and mental state into chaos. If my logical companion is correct, i am playing a game i'm not prepared for, and i have a low chance to succeed (25% chance to be precise.) But what i don't know is, is that chance going to change if i decide not to take her? It hasn't so far even if I'm dead set against it.

I don't know for sure if any of the above is true or just a guess, but for now i can't risk it. That said, she's not going away, even if she's not a tulpa. Her final book has nothing, i can't write it because i don't know how that story would go, and now especially i realize that book would force profound questions about me and force me to struggle through and resolve my own past turmoil. My books are as realistic as i can make them. Her book is very much my future, it needs to be believable i think.

I want to fix myself desperately. Maybe that 25% is my chances in doing that? Again, if i don't, i continue on, not happy, but it's not a necessary condition of continuing life. They don't call it the mortal coil for nothing, it's a struggle for all of us. I wish for a brighter future, that's all.

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#8
(10-26-2018, 07:55 PM)solarchariot Wrote: So, you, in your words, you "summoned your most advanced, non-tulpa thought form..." Just saying that means this 'subject' is not sentient, because only 'tulpas' are sentient? And yet, the capture and release event is concluded with a 'hypnotic' like suggestion to forget/remember, which is tantamount to the recognition of 'subject's' feelings. Can one have feelings with out sentience...

I am of the opinion, yes, but I almost want to conclude there is sentience here, and that you recognize or entertain sentience at some level for this 'subject.'

To a greater extent, thoughtforms like the Grays have my sentience, therefore any respect for them translates to self-respect. In practice, I don't take that perspective because I'm trying to do what's right for them, which is fine ... I know they're me but... You get what I'm saying...?

The ultimate question #5 answers is who is the sentient being? You or a different person entirely? This is what I believe to be the key ingredient for Tulpa creation. I always thought Ranger was different from the Grays, and that mindset with eventually a period of productive forcing lead to him becoming "sentient" which really means "he gained his own sentience" apart from "my sentience".
My Wonderland form minus the glasses and the fur. I'm not a hippo, I promise.
I sometimes speak in pink and Ranger sometimes speaks in blue (if it's unmarked and colored assume it's Ranger). He loves to chat.

My other Tulpas have their own account now.
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#9
Your version of this sordid tale of will is very well placed because i argue that she is me. In that her story is metaphorically autobiographical. So indeed my treatment of her is how i truly treat myself, with respect and adoration. What a twist! So for her to say 'i want to stay with you' is in a way saying, i want to be true to myself, fix mysrlf, and stop hiding in stasis myself.

The different stages of my life have been so dramatically different they do seem more like books than chapters.
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#10
A lot of this is over my head, especially the large collection of head mates and maybe head mates and proto head mates and.. Well you get the idea.

So, more importantly, it's great to hear you have finally decided on a course of action, Bear. Nobody can do a thing without resolve. <3

Now all you have to do is start walking it and live it. You know where Lance and I stand.
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