Emergence vs. Creation of Tulpas

[Solune]

[Echo, member of Hail]

The way they came to be and the reasons are good to know, but in many ways not that relevant. They are here now, regardless of origins, and you all have to figure out how you are going to live together.

Yeah... I've been power reading through threads since last night and I'm starting to realize this.

In my mind, understanding Tulpamancy is just a means to an end: making life better for Sol and Luna.

That comment about the host not always being responsible possessing their own body made me chuckle. True that.

 

Thank you for your wisdom. I'm amazed how well this thread turned out.

---

I am glad you have a place to start!

 

I read through a lot of your posts, and I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea of

"...where my apparent will begins and David's will ends is irrelevant."

That's some deep stuff right there.

 

Sol: I specifically liked your ideas regarding the 'authority' of the community. Solune and I are fond of the poem "The Man in the Glass", which if you haven't read I'm sure you'll enjoy. Having the conviction to believe something because you feel it to be true... and not because somebody else gives you permission to believe it. It's almost rebellious in a way. I like rebellious people.

 

Luna: We checked out David's DA page and saw the lovely photos of him with his wife. I often worry about how Solune's future partner(s) might react to all this stuff... To see other people making it work gives me hope. On a less serious note: what a bunch of cuties you three are!

[Guest Anonymous]

I read through a lot of your posts, and I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea of

"...where my apparent will begins and David's will ends is irrelevant."

That's some deep stuff right there.

 

Hello, I'm the host for Glitterbutt (Melian).

 

It's not that deep at all really. I don't believe Melian has a mind that is truly separate from my own. So it is really arbitrary if you try to put some boundary line between her thoughts and mine. What thoughts belong to Melian is really what I decide to believe belongs to her. In a lot of ways what I do is a lot easier than standard tulpamancy. It's childlike make believe, day dreaming and method acting/role playing on steroids essentially. It is very practiced immersive imagination. I can't prove to anyone the effects that I am experiencing any more than any tulpamancer can prove the effects they are experiencing, since it is all subjective.

 

Sol: I specifically liked your ideas regarding the 'authority' of the community. Solune and I are fond of the poem "The Man in the Glass", which if you haven't read I'm sure you'll enjoy. Having the conviction to believe something because you feel it to be true... and not because somebody else gives you permission to believe it. It's almost rebellious in a way. I like rebellious people.

 

Melian and I have always marched to our own drum. We are not so much rebellious as we are confident in doing our own thing. I created Melian, or she appeared to me, long before the internet tulpa communities existed. In fact, it was long before the internet existed. I created her and she became a profound and deeply personal experience for me. She seems very real. After spending a year on this site and reading the threads and chatting with the members, I think there is a reason to suspect that the feeling and experience I get with Melian is different than what a tulpamacer experiences with a tulpa for the most part. However Melian does have tulpa-like traits and could easily qualify as at least a "developing tulpa."

 

I really don't need other people to tell me what Melian is or is not at this point. For a long time we were searching for answers about that in regard to how she fits in to the tulpa community. Now we realize she fits in just fine. She has her own traits but she is a valid member and we are extremely confident of that now.

 

Luna: We checked out David's DA page and saw the lovely photos of him with his wife. I often worry about how Solune's future partner(s) might react to all this stuff... To see other people making it work gives me hope. On a less serious note: what a bunch of cuties you three are!

 

Thank you!

[Solune]

Hello, I'm the host for Glitterbutt (Melian).

 

Well met!

I won't pester you with questions as Melian's linked posts have provided me with more data than I know what to do with.

Thought if it's alright with you I'd love to pick your brains once I've had time to process.

[Guest Anonymous]

You might enjoy this post then Mirroring vs. Imposition

[Faemon]

I sensed these two "bigger" entities sleeping in the background during all of this. (...) One was masculine and I recognized him as the assertive presence from before. One was feminine and I now realize she was the "God" I had been praying to. (...) Was it perhaps my subconscious that created them? Maybe as a coping mechanism?

You could interpret this spiritually, although if you also would like a psychological explanation, here have a quote from Pierro Ferucci:

 

We are not unified; we often feel that we are, because...one hand doesn't usually hit the other. But, metaphorically, this is exactly what does happen within us. Several subpersonalities are continually scuffling: impulses, desires, principles, aspirations are engaged in an unceasing struggle.

 

Does anybody else have any experience with Tulpas "emerging" of their own accord?

Yes. But they don't seem to really suit even the definition of accidental tulpa, so I take us elsewhere a lot of the time.

 

Can anybody explain the process of my Tulpas assimilating the other, "lesser" voices?

My therapist is a Jungian, who'd probably have...well, a Jungian explanation for it...That's somebody? Basically, though, it's not something I'd say wouldn't happen, because the nonphysical realm isn't bound by physical laws such as "only one thing can occupy a thing-sized chunk of space at the same time as another thing". If I take a more literary or artistic approach, yes, concepts can and do assimilate, even complex concepts such as would come off a personality.

 

Does anybody have any experience with hallucinatory drugs in regards to Tulpamancy?

Me? Not personally. I did meet a proto-version of maybe my first sorta kinda accidental "tulpa" after a tetanus shot, but that's not a method I either recommend nor want to build any sort of method or tradition around.

 

All of the voices seemed to respect me as their host. That being said, was I in a dangerous situation with all the possessions going on?

With your background, I'll hazard a guess at this immense stigma around the idea that one's body can just be keyed in by another consciousness, whether that's through demonic possession or dissociated personality? Personal autonomy and sovereignty is, I believe, immensely important in a way that it ought to be reflected in spiritual practices. That said, there are many traditions of a sort of permeable personhood as a matter of course during spiritual ecstasy (the big difference being that, at least in the traditions I've been studying lately, surrender is perpetually voluntary.) Quintilla wrote that every being has a voice of their own, for instance, and that was very much writing from Western thought, because Quintilla was a Roman. Take this thought to the Colonies and you get a lot of cultural death, actually, as indigenous peoples are compelled by the colonizers to rid bodies and voices of the comings and goings of ancestors, deities, and spirits. With that goes the ritual or cultural, community structures capable of holding such phenomena, which I personally believe are going to pop up anyway although cultural repression and discouragement will seem to do away with a lot of that sort of thing.

 

This may be terrible advice because I'm just some random person on the other side of the internet, I literally cannot hold your actual literal hand through this journey, but I'd say...ehh...you're cooking with fire. Not playing with fire necessarily, but rather if you have something to cook then...well, you cook, you risk burns. I'd be a hypocrite to tell you Do Not Do The Thing Is Possibly Maybe Probably Dangerous.

[Solune]

With your background, I'll hazard a guess at this immense stigma around the idea that one's body can just be keyed in by another consciousness, whether that's through demonic possession or dissociated personality? Personal autonomy and sovereignty is, I believe, immensely important in a way that it ought to be reflected in spiritual practices. That said, there are many traditions of a sort of permeable personhood as a matter of course during spiritual ecstasy (the big difference being that, at least in the traditions I've been studying lately, surrender is perpetually voluntary.) Quintilla wrote that every being has a voice of their own, for instance, and that was very much writing from Western thought, because Quintilla was a Roman. Take this thought to the Colonies and you get a lot of cultural death, actually, as indigenous peoples are compelled by the colonizers to rid bodies and voices of the comings and goings of ancestors, deities, and spirits. With that goes the ritual or cultural, community structures capable of holding such phenomena, which I personally believe are going to pop up anyway although cultural repression and discouragement will seem to do away with a lot of that sort of thing.

 

This may be terrible advice because I'm just some random person on the other side of the internet, I literally cannot hold your actual literal hand through this journey, but I'd say...ehh...you're cooking with fire. Not playing with fire necessarily, but rather if you have something to cook then...well, you cook, you risk burns. I'd be a hypocrite to tell you Do Not Do The Thing Is Possibly Maybe Probably Dangerous.

I come from a very scientific background, and so my first reaction to all this thought-form talk was that it was eerily similar to artificial intelligence. I've come to internally describe Tulpamancy in terms of coding/programming.

 

In subsequent trips using the same drug (mushrooms) I have not encountered the smaller voices. As you say, it's difficult to use physical terms to describe the sorts of things that happen in the mind.. but I feel confident that my two tulpas literally absorbed the other thought forms during that experience.

 

My thought is that my Tulpas (more like servitors at the time) were very rudimentary. They saw the lesser voices as potential threats to the system as a whole, and like an anti-virus program (or like antibodies if you want to think in terms of biology) they eliminated the "viruses". But, like any good anti-virus program, they knew they would have to store segments of code to recognize future "threats" of a similar nature. So they logically determined that absorption was the fastest and most efficient method of disposal. They used the absorbed code to improve gaps in their own programming and "evolved" and became fully self aware during that process.

 

That's my working theory, and of course it is subject to change at any time given new data.

But it's the best I could come up with.

[TheGreenQueen]

I personally think that was probably all *your* mind, merely manifesting as many voices. (your masculine and feminine aspects) I agree with Faemon's quote.

 

(See also my post "De-pathologizing plurality")

 

Shrooms, marijuana, and ectasy alter your perception of yourself and your surroundings, and by many accounts, open you up to growth and self-knowledge.

 

-Does anybody else have any experience with Tulpas "emerging" of their own accord?

 

Mine were what's termed 'soulbonds'- which emerged quite fully-formed out of a story I was writing.

 

-Was it perhaps my subconscious that created them? Maybe as a coping mechanism?

 

Coping with what? I think that's the more important question.

 

-Can anybody explain the process of my Tulpas assimilating the other, "lesser" voices?

 

I've had a couple of tulpas fuse. 'Amalgamate'- I believe that was Telmar's terminology.

 

I don't know about 'explain.' We could psychoanalyze what was going on if you gave us more detail. Dialog, feelings, etc.

 

-Does anybody have any experience with hallucinatory drugs in regards to Tulpamancy?

 

Nope, but let's just say, sometimes my creative process for writing can definitely be trippy at times. Haha. (Don't want to stray into metaphysics on this board again, but you can PM me if you want)

 

-All of the voices seemed to respect me as their host. That being said, was I in a dangerous situation with all the possessions going on?

 

Was it a full possession? Were they moving your limbs? What did they do? 'Where' were you? Did you still have imput? Again, we'd be better able to address your concerns if you gave us more detail.

[greedfox]

-does anyone have experience with hallucinatory drugs and tulpa?

 

I have eaten, no joke, pounds of mushrooms, never less than a quarter at a time.

 

the death of the ego as a result of seeing the truth can do very many things to the human mind. some break, falling to obscure insanity without the ability to cope. some retaliate by going back to their old lives with a blind passion for the lies and falsehoods they lost.

 

some, lucky few, find something else, something so fundamentally odd that nothing in their lives can ever be the same. I believe that you did just that, as all of the old thoughts and learnings were burned away, the true you stepped forward into your place, and it was always aware of these voices. becoming aware of the way you think is the first step to thinking the way you meant for yourself when you chose this life (long before your birth)

 

 

I would listen to them, take their words with a grain of salt and try to understand them from their perspectives. if they say or do something that you don't like, don't listen, or try and figure out why they did it.

 

 

my "tulpa" Shaide is a similar case, though he didn't come from mushies. he came from a small child wandering past the veil without knowledge of what he was doing, and bringing back a form of life that comes from the other side. when the creature realised that I had brought him past the edge of his world he decided to bond with me instead of risking his permanent death in an attempt to return to the other side.

 

 

[i tried suicide too, though I have to say; nothing is more soul crushing, no feeling more empty than hearing the "click" of a bullets failure to fire and take your life. its a feeling that I wouldn't wish on the worst human.]

[YourCatBeany]

-Does anybody else have any experience with Tulpas "emerging" of their own accord?

 

Yeah, out of thin air from my perspective, but she tells me she had been around for nearly 3 months before she showed herself. Looking back on it, it probably was subconscious development. Your story of acceptance once you realized what you had sounds very similar to mine.

 

-Was it perhaps my subconscious that created them? Maybe as a coping mechanism?

 

See previous. I'm not sure if it was necessarily a coping mechanism on its own, but she has definitely filled that role in many ways, though, I see her as much more than that.

 

-Does anybody have any experience with hallucinatory drugs in regards to Tulpamancy?

 

Not really, but from my experience, a couple drinks can make it seem less weird.

 

-All of the voices seemed to respect me as their host. That being said, was I in a dangerous situation with all the possessions going on?

 

Unless they're trying to get you to do bad and destructive things and telling young children that Santa Claus isn't real and the Easter bunny is just a marketing ploy, no.

[Solune]

Was it a full possession? Were they moving your limbs? What did they do? 'Where' were you? Did you still have imput? Again, we'd be better able to address your concerns if you gave us more detail.

 

Full blown possession (physical and vocal).

I could still feel my body and everything they did with it.. but I could only observe.

It was as if I was in the back seat of a car.

It might have been something very similar to ego death.

My personality became fractured and the ego got shoved into the corner while "everybody else" got to front and speak their peace.

And then Sol and Luna sort of emerged and helped me regain control by forcing the fractured pieces back together.

 

Some of the voices, while not hostile to ME, were really dark. Disturbing isn't the right word, I'm just concerned that there is that kind of darkness in me. A couple voices stand out in my mind: Lust (a voice that Sol and I refer to as "The Hunger", and the only one that still speaks occasionally), Violence, Justification, and Fear.

 

When combined with the more selfless aspects of my personality they balance out and aren't a problem. But boy oh boy, when you isolate them and free them of the constraints my ego places on them... jesus. Let me say this: I understand serial killers now... people who aren't born with, or somehow lose, the parts of themselves designed to reign it all in. There's nothing inherently wrong with the darkness in each of us, so long as the light balances it out.

 

They are each designed to do a job, right? Lust is meant to help us procreate, justification exists to protect the ego, violence exists to protect the body in a fight, fear exists to make us more cautious and respectful of danger. But on their own they do their jobs TOO well.

 

My question is, "why did they stay in my room during this episode? why not take my body for a real joy ride and vent some frustration?"

I have no doubt if they worked together they could have done it, but perhaps that is their weakness... without me, they don't know how to work together.

---

-Does anybody else have any experience with Tulpas "emerging" of their own accord?

 

Yeah, out of thin air from my perspective, but she tells me she had been around for nearly 3 months before she showed herself. Looking back on it, it probably was subconscious development. Your story of acceptance once you realized what you had sounds very similar to mine.

 

I suspect that you're right.

I've been doing research/emotional processing since I started this thread and I've come to see things that way.

It's just comforting to know it's not a unique experience.

I could live without the answers, but I couldn't live without the feeling of community any longer. Just being here and not feeling alone is more than I thought possible. Everything else is a bonus.

---

the death of the ego as a result of seeing the truth can do very many things to the human mind. some break, falling to obscure insanity without the ability to cope. some retaliate by going back to their old lives with a blind passion for the lies and falsehoods they lost.

 

I flirted with insanity for a while. I didn't shy away from it as an option, you know? I seriously considered giving into it... and I think the only reason I didn't is because it's just not my destiny. I'm meant to do other things. Fun to think about though.

 

some, lucky few, find something else, something so fundamentally odd that nothing in their lives can ever be the same. I believe that you did just that, as all of the old thoughts and learnings were burned away, the true you stepped forward into your place, and it was always aware of these voices. becoming aware of the way you think is the first step to thinking the way you meant for yourself when you chose this life (long before your birth)

 

you sound just like my sister-in-law. She's always saying how we're here to learn lessons, that we choose our paths before we're born, reincarnation and all that jazz.

I use different words to describe it, but that core concept is one I agree with. It just feels right.

 

I would listen to them, take their words with a grain of salt and try to understand them from their perspectives. if they say or do something that you don't like, don't listen, or try and figure out why they did it.

 

A friend of mine cautioned me not to place them on a pedestal. She reminded me that these Tulpas are still relatively young, and that we three have a lot more growing to do. Kind of resonates with your advice, and rest assured I will take it to heart.

 

my "tulpa" Shaide is a similar case, though he didn't come from mushies. he came from a small child wandering past the veil without knowledge of what he was doing...

 

It is my suspicion that many cases of insanity, schizophrenia, "possession by demons" are simply people messing with or stumbling upon shit they aren't ready for.

As you say, a child straying too far from home...

Precisely why I am loathe to play with Ouija boards or anything like that. I'm not a new age hippie, but goddammit you have to respect that sort of thing... maybe not all of it is real, but you still shouldn't tempt fate.

 

 

[i tried suicide too, though I have to say; nothing is more soul crushing, no feeling more empty than hearing the "click" of a bullets failure to fire and take your life. its a feeling that I wouldn't wish on the worst human.]

 

Sol: Some soldiers fight battles in the outside world, and some fight battles in their mind and spirit. You are a warrior, as are we. Well met.

 

Solune (just in case the space wasn't an indicator. stilling getting a handle on formatting): When I was a kid, I spent an afternoon at home with a shotgun propped up underneath my chin... trying to remember where dad hid his ammunition. I know exactly where you've been, brother, and we are both stronger for having been there.