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Should you ground your Tulpa on emotional states that you experience more often, rather than what you want them to be?


neo

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So I have been learning a little about DID and how those alters come about, and I started to wonder if I have made a mistake while starting to form my tulpa.

I realized that the alters are kind of a symbolic representation of an already existing feeling, or part of their minds.

(I'm not 100% sure that's the case but it certainly seems to be.)

If that it's true, and tulpa formation is somewhat similar, then this means the tulpa formation depends upon you feeling their "core" emotion on a daily basis. Which can be a problem if you pick something like "playful" or "loving", if you don't feel those emotions on a daily basis on your own, you're not going to be able to summon those emotions out of nowhere to "feed" them that emotion.

 

( Or in other words, they aren't representing anything that's really there, they're representing an emotion that you want them to have rather than one emotion that you do have) 

 

This seems to be the case for me, I chose something like kind, chill and loving. And just now I realize that I can only talk to her consistently on the days that I already feel like that, and on the days I don't, it's very hard to get responses other than "yeah" or "I guess so".

 

That makes me afraid of not being able to summon her whenever I actually need her, because at that time those positive emotions will be even more scarce.

 

So would it be a good idea to pick an emotion that's closer to my "default emotion" so that I'll have plenty of that for her to feed upon? (or at least that I won't have to force myself into remembering a feeling I'm not used to feeling all the time)
I'm also hesitant to pick something too neutral because it could go the other way and amplify the boredom somewhat.

 

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

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1 hour ago, neo said:

I realized that the alters are kind of a symbolic representation of an already existing feeling, or part of their minds.

(I'm not 100% sure that's the case but it certainly seems to be.)

 

I'm far from an expert, but I have heard some alters are fragmented parts of a person rather than a whole person. A singlet has multiple versions of themselves, like the version that goes to work, the version that hangs out at the club, the version who's angry with their spouse, etc. With some alters, these different versions split and become separated by amnesia barriers. I don't know if this is happens for a general emotional state or not.

 

1 hour ago, neo said:

That makes me afraid of not being able to summon her whenever I actually need her, because at that time those positive emotions will be even more scarce.

 

I think assuming your tulpa will have any particular emotion is a self-limiting trap. A tulpa is going to feel how they feel, even if they had prior personality forcing. Even though in general I was a "happy-go-lucky" type of tulpa when I was younger, I still had other emotions I expressed including frustration, fear, and sadness.

 

If your tulpa is having trouble when you're feeling down, that could be for a number of reasons. Some tulpas keep some distance between themselves and their host's depression while others are very involved and take on guardian roles. It's also possible your tulpa doesn't have anything to contribute or they don't know how to help you.

 

1 hour ago, neo said:

So would it be a good idea to pick an emotion that's closer to my "default emotion" so that I'll have plenty of that for her to feed upon? (or at least that I won't have to force myself into remembering a feeling I'm not used to feeling all the time)
I'm also hesitant to pick something too neutral because it could go the other way and amplify the boredom somewhat.

 

I don't think her personality has to be changed, but you can force her when you're not feeling great. If she's not super engaged, you may want to do a neutral activity or use a vocality resource like Indigo's work sheet so you can distract yourself or at least give yourself something else to think about and work on.

Edited by Ranger

I'm Ranger, GrayTheCat's cobud (tulpa), and I love hippos! I also like cake and chatting about stuff. I go by Rosalin or Ronan sometimes. You can call me Roz but please don't call me Ron.

My other headmates have their own account now.

 

If I missed seeing your art, please PM/DM me!

Blog | Not So Temporary Log | Switching Log | Yay! | Bre Translator | Art Thread

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It's curious to me that you think an sentient identity should have a core emotion at all. Emotion should be a response to outside stimulus, not an intrinsic part of why they exist. If you're aiming for a sentient identity it should be questioning itself, and if it doesn't, I think that's you're job to push it to do so. Also DID alters, are problematically limited constructs precisely because they are often only partially rational in the way that your singlet ego isn't. I would not try to base your ideas of tulpas on the concept of an alter, personally. They're fundamentally formed differently, even if on a base level they may be like any other identity in the mind, including singlet egos and tulpas.

 

Regular, run of the mill identity models in the brain are formed there mostly through empathy. Their basic function is to make you feel things you don't feel in your own model. That's how you predict their behaviour, knowing what they want and why they feel that way. You don't need to be regularly experiencing a type of emotion to create a mental model that does. Here's an example: Do you think you felt a weakened romantic love first through empathy with fiction or do you think it was actually during your first romance? Same goes for some sort of serious sadness, were you lucky enough to have gotten to fiction before a major death in your family - you probably felt loss as a youth at something fictitious. You need to have emotions for a tulpa to have them, yes. But the quantity doesn't matter, just that you are able to feel.

 

You refer to kind, chill, and loving. But those are not emotional states, they're modes of behaviour that can reward the brain by triggering emotions. Those are exactly the kind of thing a tulpa should have, however by default they should be neutrally aware of their environment as you are, but driven to seeking out emotional fulfilment - people who are loving are driven by a need to experience more love, because on some level they understand being loving gives you love. They aren't in a perpetual state of love.

 

There's a distinct difference between that and telling a mental construct: "You feel love, you feel relaxed, you feel the sensation of giving generosity." You definitely don't want to do the that - that's a servitor rather than a tulpa, and I do actually have a servitor who is suspended in that state, and they cannot get out of it by themselves. They feel only mostly love or despair, intermittently, and when I make them. They are effectively a character with vivid enough emotions to cause emotional bleed, and they will never grow beyond that until I allow them to feel something else by becoming self-aware.

 

Also if they're giving you very curt responses, to me that's a sign they're not actually thinking particularly consciously, if at all (it's possible to think reflexively) and I'd say to push them on it - presuming they're fully vocal in that state? Ask what they're feeling and thinking; ask them to think about what they want to be feeling; ask them what you should do together - whatever really, just ask them questions that require real thought to answer. Then if they continue to give you curt responses or dodge. Simply ask "Why is that?" or some variation of that. Also avoid showing any judginess from deviation from their normal state. I would say unless for whatever reason they're being extremely negative you want to respond to them developing complex thought with excitement of your own if you can, and make them aware that development away from their initial state is totally fine, and generally encouraged.

Zen - Host.

Mika - Tulpa. The eldest, and a homegrown tupper made with tulpamancy.

Rhys - Tulpa. Initially a Literary Thoughtform of my own creation.

Asterion - Tulpa. Literary, I suppose? Mythological egregore, maybe? He's The Minotaur.

If text is uncoloured, presume Zen is talking. We go by he/him.

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(edited)

Tulpas aren't alters, so...

 

A tulpa is whoever you make them. If your brain has any idea whatsoever how they should act/think, they'll act/think like that just fine. (Versus say, making a "computer genius" tulpa when you have no idea how computers work - won't work out so well)

 

My first tulpa was an extremely positive force in my life as a young teen who was really negative myself, she believed in the good of all people when I was very cynical, et cetera. Not only did that work fine for her - she ended up influencing me to be more like her over the years, and I've got a much more positive outlook on life now. So yeah, "base" your tulpa on whatever you want.

 

Do note that they will still develop as people over time regardless of how you start them out, though. They likely won't change too much, but they should become more mature and a little more grounded maybe, as they get to know themselves and the world.

Edited by Luminesce

Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.

Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.

My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us about tulpamancy stuff there.

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Thanks for the helpful response. So lets see...

 

8 minutes ago, Ranger said:

I think assuming your tulpa will have any particular emotion is a self-limiting trap. A tulpa is going to feel how they feel, even if they had prior personality forcing. Even though in general I was a "happy-go-lucky" type of tulpa when I was younger, I still had other emotions I expressed including frustration, fear, and sadness.

She has expressed those kind of emotions before too, but I have purposefully blocked her from helping me with that during creation, because she tried to be more helpful and involved once when I was feeling down, and it ended up spreading to her and making her feel worse, instead of me feel better. So it became a self reinforcing depression loop so to say. And it hasn't been a time like that since so I don't know what will happen next time.

So I thought that was because she was new and I made it a rule that she should only deal with that kind of situation once she's completely formed so there's no danger of it influencing the development. I'm afraid of her becoming a representation of something pathological or negative (as that seems to be the most common type of alter)

 

13 minutes ago, Ranger said:

If your tulpa is having trouble when you're feeling down, that could be for a number of reasons. Some tulpas keep some distance between themselves and their host's depression while others are very involved and take on guardian roles. It's also possible your tulpa doesn't have anything to contribute or they don't know how to help you.

But does that apply to the creation process or only after reaching a certain level of sentience? If I ask her why she's inactive now she'll say something like "I dunno" or "I'm here but I don't know what to say". And only get really involved whenever we're doing something very interesting that involves those core emotions. But I want her to be able to exist daily and not just whenever I'm really excited about doing something. (because those days are becoming more and more rare)

 

20 minutes ago, Ranger said:

I don't think her personality has to be changed, but you can force her when you're not feeling great. If she's not super engaged, you may want to do a neutral activity or use a vocality resource like Indigo's work sheet so you can distract yourself or at least give yourself something else to think about and work on.

Thanks I'll take a look on those resources and see if anything changes. I don't intend to change her per se, it's more like giving her access to an emotion that I feel all the time in order for her to "exist" more easily if that makes any sense. Sorta like a change of diet.

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(edited)
18 minutes ago, neo said:

So I thought that was because she was new and I made it a rule that she should only deal with that kind of situation once she's completely formed so there's no danger of it influencing the development. I'm afraid of her becoming a representation of something pathological or negative (as that seems to be the most common type of alter)

 

You aren't required to share your troubles with her, but she won't be harmed by them if you do. If you notice "her" acting out or saying things that are out of character or over the top dramatic, it's possible you're dealing with an intrusive thought and it will go away after some time or you ignoring it. I don't know how intrusive thoughts work in a traumatic system. At the very least, our extreme anxiety and mild trauma has manifested in more extreme ways than the typical experience with intrusive thoughts, but my development was not harmed by it. The important thing was figuring out how to identify what was an intrusive thought and what was me.
 

18 minutes ago, neo said:

But does that apply to the creation process or only after reaching a certain level of sentience? If I ask her why she's inactive now she'll say something like "I dunno" or "I'm here but I don't know what to say". And only get really involved whenever we're doing something very interesting that involves those core emotions. But I want her to be able to exist daily and not just whenever I'm really excited about doing something. (because those days are becoming more and more rare)

 

It doesn't surprise me she doesn't have much to say. In fact, if she's spending time being positive and not engaging in other things, it could simply be she doesn't know how to contribute to situations not related to positivity. It also doesn't surprise me she doesn't know why she's inactive- that's a tougher question a tulpa probably won't immediately know the answer to.

 

In general, I think it's more helpful to show a young tulpa something rather than ask them if they know something. For example, instead of asking what their favorite color is, show them the different colors and observe their reaction. In this case, I think it would be helpful to show her various neutral things and ask how she feels about them or if she has any questions about them.

Edited by Ranger

I'm Ranger, GrayTheCat's cobud (tulpa), and I love hippos! I also like cake and chatting about stuff. I go by Rosalin or Ronan sometimes. You can call me Roz but please don't call me Ron.

My other headmates have their own account now.

 

If I missed seeing your art, please PM/DM me!

Blog | Not So Temporary Log | Switching Log | Yay! | Bre Translator | Art Thread

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10 hours ago, ZenAndMika said:

Regular, run of the mill identity models in the brain are formed there mostly through empathy. Their basic function is to make you feel things you don't feel in your own model. That's how you predict their behaviour, knowing what they want and why they feel that way. You don't need to be regularly experiencing a type of emotion to create a mental model that does. Here's an example: Do you think you felt a weakened romantic love first through empathy with fiction or do you think it was actually during your first romance? Same goes for some sort of serious sadness, were you lucky enough to have gotten to fiction before a major death in your family - you probably felt loss as a youth at something fictitious. You need to have emotions for a tulpa to have them, yes. But the quantity doesn't matter, just that you are able to feel.

 

That does make a whole lot of sense to me, but I think there may be a difference between the emotions that I use to summon the whole visual, audio, touch etc. Those are emotional states that I have to be in personally. And the part about empathy is a different thing, I expected to feel those empathetic feelings, but from the experiences that I'm having from those visual and audio perceptions and not prior to them.

For instance, let's say I'd start to visualize and get into the state of mind that I visualize in, then from the visuals I perceive empathically that she is looking a little quiet or maybe has an expression that visually indicates that. Then I feel that empathetic response, but before seeing her like that and those expressions, I wouldn't.
Maybe I'm doing it in reverse IDK. Am I supposed to interpret the whole thing using empathy? I have used it partially but it's sorta confusing as to what am I supposed to do exactly. So I'm just doing all of it a little bit. It would be better to have a concrete idea of what it should be done instead of me vaguely sorta guessing and throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks.

 

10 hours ago, ZenAndMika said:

however by default they should be neutrally aware of their environment as you are, but driven to seeking out emotional fulfilment - people who are loving are driven by a need to experience more love, because on some level they understand being loving gives you love. They aren't in a perpetual state of love.

So in a way it's the emotion of needing more love that guides the behavior rather than being loved.
I just remember that about a year ago I tasked her with swatting down all my negative, intrusive and repetitive thoughts and replace them with whatever she wanted. But I think she just did the job too well and now I don't experience those intrusive thoughts anymore. But she also is less active because that was something for her to do that's not necessary anymore, and it's now just there like whatever, hanging out. The only feeling I perceive is sorta like "I did my job, I don't want to make my life more complex, but I also want to progress and be more active". So she's a little bit conflicted between progressing and staying like that. Because she's going to have to step out of the comfort zone so to say.

 

10 hours ago, ZenAndMika said:

Also if they're giving you very curt responses, to me that's a sign they're not actually thinking particularly consciously, if at all (it's possible to think reflexively) and I'd say to push them on it - presuming they're fully vocal in that state? Ask what they're feeling and thinking; ask them to think about what they want to be feeling; ask them what you should do together - whatever really, just ask them questions that require real thought to answer. Then if they continue to give you curt responses or dodge. Simply ask "Why is that?" or some variation of that. Also avoid showing any judginess from deviation from their normal state. I would say unless for whatever reason they're being extremely negative you want to respond to them developing complex thought with excitement of your own if you can, and make them aware that development away from their initial state is totally fine, and generally encouraged.

I'm gonna try that out and see if it yields results, I did that about a year ago but I just sorta assumed I was done with it and moved on. Apparently not.

 

Thanks for the thoughtful response. It's given me a lot to think about.


10 hours ago, Luminesce said:

Tulpas aren't alters, so...

Sorry I didn't mean to imply that. I'm only interested in the process of tulpa creation, I don't particularly mind if they're alters or not. To me the definitions don't really make any practical difference. I used it more like an analogy rather than saying that's what it was.

 

10 hours ago, Luminesce said:

A tulpa is whoever you make them. If your brain has any idea whatsoever how they should act/think, they'll act/think like that just fine. (Versus say, making a "computer genius" tulpa when you have no idea how computers work - won't work out so well)

Well sure but then I try to decide she's active and it's around all the time and it just doesn't work. It takes more than just deciding it to be so for me to keep it consistently working on a daily basis. It's not that this doesn't work, it's more like those decisions don't stick around further than the sessions or shortly after. Then she returns to being more aligned to what I do on default mode.

 

10 hours ago, Luminesce said:

My first tulpa was an extremely positive force in my life as a young teen that was really negative, she believed in the good of all people when I was very cynical, et cetera. Not only did that work fine for her - she ended up influencing me to be more like her over the years, and I've got a much more positive outlook on life now. So yeah, "base" your tulpa on whatever you want.

Sure I believe that, but what I'm wondering is, do I have to believe in "the good of all people" in order for her to believe that also? Didn't you believe that prior to having a tulpa?

 

10 hours ago, Luminesce said:

Do note that they will still develop as people over time regardless of how you start them out, though. They likely won't change too much, but they should become more mature and a little more grounded maybe, as they get to know themselves and the world.

I hope so but learning more about life has only made me more jaded, I hope that doesn't happen to her also as she develops.

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(edited)

Sorry if I wasn't clear - before my tulpas, I was depressed in general, and believed that humanity was corrupt and doomed to just die out some time in the near future. My tulpa Reisen really makes a case for tulpas being able to be nothing like their host ever has been, even though in any other time I would say someone probably couldn't make a tulpa so different from them. But to be fair, I didn't create her on purpose, she came into existence gradually as I hyperfixated on the character she was based on for months. While I did see her as an unconditionally loving entity with a pure heart, I can't say there was much room in my brain for beliefs that humanity was anything other than corrupt and doomed to destroy itself - it sort of just followed as part of who Reisen was to think and believe what she did. But it was inspiring, and comparing myself to her, I couldn't justify my own ways of thinking anymore, as logical as they seemed.

 

She was a huge part of my overcoming depression and replacing my negative thought patterns and beliefs with positive ones. I did read a lot of self-help articles and books too, but I wouldn't have had any motivation or inspiration to do so if it weren't for her showing me it was an option to be positive like that (without just being "stupid", as I believed happy people were back then).

Edited by Luminesce

Hi! I'm Lumi, host of Reisen, Tewi, Flandre and Lucilyn.

Everyone deserves to love and be loved. It's human nature.

My tulpas and I have a Q&A thread, which was the first (and largest) of its kind. Feel free to ask us about tulpamancy stuff there.

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7 hours ago, neo said:

That does make a whole lot of sense to me, but I think there may be a difference between the emotions that I use to summon the whole visual, audio, touch etc.

That's odd to me - you shouldn't need to be in a specific emotional state to be able to imagine things. Relaxation increases vividness but personally I don't struggle to visualize at will.

 

7 hours ago, neo said:

But I think she just did the job too well and now I don't experience those intrusive thoughts anymore. But she also is less active because that was something for her to do that's not necessary anymore, and it's now just there like whatever, hanging out. The only feeling I perceive is sorta like "I did my job, I don't want to make my life more complex, but I also want to progress and be more active".

So at this point I should definitely ask if you know if you have any sort of disorder which effects intrusive thoughts, or whether these are your run-of-the-mill variety. Because I can only give good advice regarding the latter, so take this with a huge grain of salt. This is my disclaimer that if you do - do not try to use a tulpa or self-suggestion as a bandaid for your issues - get some real therapy. There's a distinct point in tulpamancy where intrusive thoughts seem to gain more vividness, gaining the power to be easily turned into new thoughtforms - which a neurotypical mind can withstand, and can even find useful for developing future thoughtforms. That said, some people with intrusive thought related disorders seem to have very negative responses to this, including manifesting full-blown psychosis, and I'm strongly of the opinion that people with those disorders should be getting their shit together, and mind under control, first - if at all.

 

Moving on though, presuming only regular-strength intrusive thoughts: Intrusive thoughts happen every once and a while for me, but they aren't the biggest deal and I just rationalize them as "Oh, that's an intrusive thought, not me or you. Moving on. Sorry if that was unpleasant."  I make no effort to prevent them from surfacing, and the common psychological advice is not to do so - intrusive thoughts should be stripped of power to effect you by acknowledging them as not real or meaningful, not prevented entirely.

 

A big part of making a tulpa for me has been understanding that random thought doesn't belong to anyone, but it plays a big part in how we develop our egos. We latch onto thoughts and we deconstruct them and possibly accept them as us. I think if you actively quiet your mind too much it's entirely possible to prevent growth that way. I would suggest opening the proverbial floodgates on thought and instead of trying to block out random thought, with your tulpa, categorize them into groups - Me, Tulpa, Both of us, Random noise/Reflex (of which intrusive thoughts are a part), Other/Don't know. Doing so will increase the scale of the tulpa's model, provided you are capable of accepting intrusive thoughts don't have to affect you without medication or therapy.

 

For me, quieting the mind also actively reduces my tulpas ability to think. When I dissipated my tulpa, I did so by forcing my mind into a state of mindfulness of the self, and emptying thought. When I brought them back we did a few experiments on this, and even by touching on that state of mind I can quiet them to a whisper or silence them completely. I actively need to be a in a state where I am open to random thought entering my mind before I can communicate with my tulpa easily.

Zen - Host.

Mika - Tulpa. The eldest, and a homegrown tupper made with tulpamancy.

Rhys - Tulpa. Initially a Literary Thoughtform of my own creation.

Asterion - Tulpa. Literary, I suppose? Mythological egregore, maybe? He's The Minotaur.

If text is uncoloured, presume Zen is talking. We go by he/him.

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53 minutes ago, ZenAndMika said:

I would suggest opening the proverbial floodgates on thought and instead of trying to block out random thought

This makes a lot of sense actually. Initially I assumed they weren't supposed to be there. So when I had the option to just quiet them I thought why not?
t's not that the intrusive thoughts I have are bad or anything it's just that I've been forcing and meditating for so long that everything it's very like, clean. But I guess I can try to do that and see what comes of it.

Is there a specific way to make them happen? Or is it just like, waiting for them to happen randomly?

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