Thoughts On Larger Systems

[puppyboyluvs]

Thoughts on tulpa systems with larger tulpa/headmate counts? For example we only have around 4 intentionally created tulpas while the other 80+ were walk-ins and therefore created unintentionally - thoughts on this and other larger systems?

[Ice909]

I'm quite opinionated here. Imo, if your system has over 30-40 headmates, 90% of them either barely qualify as anything resembling a headmate, or you have undiagnosed DID. Or both. Case and point, some system, or someone system, or whatever they go by. Opal system? Either way, they had exponential system growth, and they eventually (after a couple years) got diagnosed with DID. I personally don't see how a system could get that large, and our system has about 18 people. Most headmates I figure would be little more than a name and a form that maybe fronted once or twice, never to be seen again. That's not really a tulpa, now is it? But then again, we are not you, so who are we to really comment on the lives of others, hmm? When systems say their numbers are in the thousands, that to me sounds like they're either lying or delusional. Or, again, they have undiagnosed DID. All the same, I can't imagine it being practical at all. 

[PsychoticDoc]

imo a person shouldn't have more than 1 or 2, but im an extreme minority these days

[TurboSimmie]

I don't like to comment on this much because I just don't understand larger systems and don't like to pass judgement. Having said that, I find it hard to understand how anyone can maintain a system of over about 5, at least using my current understanding of what a tulpa or even a headmate in general is. Your brain only has so much power, and when you have a large number of people within it there's not going to be enough mental horsepower available for everyone to be active. Even if you rotate people in and out, there's only going to be so much time for each person while they're active to have their own unique thoughts and experiences. But I do want to state I am largely ignorant of the workings of larger systems and there may be different ways of operating that may make more tulpas possible.

[Reisen]

3 hours ago, TurboSimmie said:

Having said that, I find it hard to understand how anyone can maintain a system of over about 5

 

Well as the least active member in a system of 5, I can tell you for us it often consists of me fronting for a few days, getting about 20 total minutes of activity over the next 2 months, and then fronting for another couple days lol

 

(The others are more active than me even when not fronting, but still, the concept remains the same that 13 years later it's very difficult to give everyone the activity they deserve)

[The Candlelight Society]

Well as host to a system of 14, I think a 40+ systen either must have special adaptations for their systems or most of the tulpas will be barely formed. Its been interesting figuring out how to make 14 of us have good active times and 3 to 4 of us are still way under active (getting rectified now) so anything above 20 seems like a nightmare to me at this moment. I know a couple systems like that and they are functional but have abilities not usual such as seemingly parellel processing like abilities or massive fusions or blending tricks to make it work.

Edited May 16, 2022 by Michael Blackwater
grammar

[Formicidae]

Honestly, I think that one is ideal. After that the returns diminish by a whole lot and I don't want the added noise.

[Ranger]

Large system dynamics are different from small system dynamics to the point where advice for smaller systems can actually be harmful for larger systems. Given that smaller systems are becoming more rare and larger systems are becoming more common, I want to talk about why a system gets large and what system dynamics I have seen large systems use.

 

When we joined in 2018, we were in an unusual position. Gray believed I was his only tulpa and we had these other "characters" hanging around. We decided by June of 2019 the surviving characters were actually headmates, bringing our system size to 17 (and later 18 after bringing back Dream). While it's debatable when our headmates became sentient (even within our own system, Fish (Evergreen) believed he was a walk-in), our headmates are developed enough now they developed into tulpas. Nobody else really had such an experience, and the advice we were given made having such a large system shameful and stressful.

 

We were given a lot of backlash for being "irresponsible" given our system size, but this backlash was ultimately under-informed given our experiences were uncharted territory. It is true Gray didn't want to have 17 tulpas, and after thinking about it for a while, we realized the core motivation behind Gray's character creation in 2018 and onward was to revive Dream. However, there was a lot of advice I have come to realize that could have helped us then- if you have a tulpa-like entity in your head, that doesn't guarantee they're a tulpa because an individual system has a lot of freedom on what a tulpa is in the first place. If you think you have a partially developed tulpa, it is not too late to make the choice if you want them or not and if you ultimately want them, you won't forget them and you can choose to force them later. "Walk-ins" that are created can hang out and then "walk-out" when they're satisfied with their experience. Dissipation early, even a partially developed tulpa, can be a better alternative to keeping around an unwanted tulpa. While we decided that we don't want to use this advice now, this information would have been helpful to have back in June when we were unsure of our situation. Unfortunately, it didn't exist yet, and our fear of killing living people motivated us to keep our headmates. Ironically, our desire to be responsible for our headmates gave us the look of being irresponsible. Now that our headmates have different priorities and we still value individualism as a system, we instead have decided to use dissipation and integration when our headmates request it while promising we can only provide what we can in the meantime. Our system size has dropped to 14 as of now and our system structure while not perfect or even ideal is more manageable than it was before.

 

The advice of 1-2 tulpas per system and advocating for a smaller system is great until it brings stress and shame to the system. When I gave this advice to the wrong systems, their size grew anyway and they struggled with insecurity, stress, and shame. I realized that by itself, this advice was harmful. Even if they're not fully separate, walk-ins still have feelings and regardless of who they are, there is a human with feelings present and telling them to dissipate or sometimes being threatened to kill themselves for 'the good of the system' often leads to a terrible outcome. Instead, I think it's helpful to consider that some headmates value their experience in the moment rather than their development and offer the alternative of "walking out", having their own dedicated time later, or coming and going but not being guaranteed system member recognition. This opens the doors to accommodating different tulpamancy experiences.

 

Not every tulpamancer starts off with a small system and several start with a small group and then balloon to a larger size. Several are accidental systems who start off with multiple tulpas and/or multiple "maybe tulpas" and don't know what to do about their system situation. By deciding their "maybe tulpas" are tulpas and realizing their creativity ultimately leads to tulpa creation, that can cause a system to grow quickly. Authors and roleplayers tend to fall into this group. On the other hand, another common situation is a tulpamancer starting with one or two but after establishing separation or becoming open enough to allow walk-ins, their system size starts to balloon. I believe one possibility could be enjoying the creation experience and simply wanting to create more for whatever reason. Another motivation could be the system needed to be more open to intrusive thoughts to establish initial separation and achieve vocality, but now they're too open and now they have a walk-in problem. In rare cases, a system population will balloon if the system relies on switching and creating new headmates to gain relief from depression, anxiety, or another mental health problem. Another possibility to a ballooning population could be other mental health conditions like OCD (persistent intrusive thoughts), schizophrenia, etc. In rare cases there could actually be an underlying diagnosis for DID/OSDD that applies to that system, but I never want to assume that when there could be another explanation. Assuming OSDD/DID where it doesn't apply tends to cast out that system from the tulpa community and puts them at risk of being traumatized by the broader plural community and/or teaching that system dysfunctional system behavior. Our system is unusual because our situation fits in both the first category (sort of) and the mental health category (but not due to depending on switching). Regardless of the underlying reasoning, the traditional 1-2 tulpa approach typically fails all of the above.

 

Different systems tend to make dynamics that best fit them. For the accidental systems that start off large, I typically see a different definition of what a tulpa is, but I also mainly see this idea of being a system member being very important. If you are a system member, you are basically a "legitimate tulpa". Anything that is not a system member doesn't develop into their own person. Non-tulpas may be labeled as characters, soulbonds, NPCs, or whatever the system deems appropriate. This works because part of creating a tulpa is recognizing them as their own separate person, and a well thought-out effort to avoid creation stops creation from happening. In systems who create because they enjoy creation for whatever reason, having a "walk-in" and "walk-out" policy can lead to a system of 50 being a system of 3-6 management wise at any given time. These headmates are more likely to desire their in the moment experience and can be content with this set up. Additionally, some systems who realize being big isn't as desirable may decide to use stasis, integration, dissipation if they don't have an open door policy. Some headmates remain in stasis with the understanding they will get their chance later, some decide they would like more time and are willing to exchange their individuality, while others may not be content and wish to leave on their own accord. For a system struggling with mental health, I believe they need professional guidance before they worry about their system size. After that, they may benifit from a stasis policy / taking a break from tulpamancy, and/or redefining what a tulpa is to avoid intrusive thoughts, hallucinations, etc. or they may find other options more appealing. With these approaches, large systems are more functional and typically content with their experiences.

 

Unfortunately, some tulpamancy advice, mostly from the perspective of smaller systems, can and has hurt a lot of larger systems including ours. I used to preach the 1-2 headmate policy and spread the stigma of large systems until I realized that was wrong and it hurt a lot more people including us. Tulpamancy varies a lot from system to system, so much so even good advice can become bad advice for the wrong crowd. I hope that by typing all of this out, I can make up for the damage I spread and for new systems finding themselves in this situation, they won't have to be ashamed for who they are or feel stressed out about their situation.

Edited May 17, 2022 by Ranger

[Ice909]

I mostly agree with Ranger. Our system has about 18 people or so but we only have 6-8 people not in stasis at any given moment. More relevantly, we got a lot of shit back in the day for our exponential growth off the bat. I didn't understand why at the time but now I do. But, like Ranger said, the stigma did nothing to truly help and just lead to feelings of guilt. 

[Mint Phalanx]

We have ten official members in our system. Unofficial members come and go. We have ADHD, so our brain is too good at making tulpas.

 

Although we're separate from each other, our originator isn't separate from us. Maybe that's why they don't dissipate.

Edited May 23, 2023 by Mint Phalanx