a skeptics look into metaphysics

[abcdefg]

I asked other people, Forge has only told others to make a sigil and then it should be possible. If this getting to know the person phase is so important, why doesn't he tell everyone that is important? It was the make it or break it deal in this case, so it obviously was important. He's not telling those who want to do this a key piece of information, if this is real. Because just sigils didn't work despite people claiming that's all you need.

 

I would REALLY like to emphasize this.

And I would like to get an answer on that as well, because eventhough we talked to multiple people involved in this, Chupi is the first one who told us about the getting to know part.

[Chupi]

I *think* the "getting to know" thing was to get an "energy signature" of some sort. I'm not sure why he used that rather than a sigil that time. When he tried to come see my wonderland the first day he showed up on the IRC, he didn't ask me to place any sigil.

 

Being open-minded and gullible isn't the same thing.

 

Correct. I'm not saying it's definitely true, but I'm not discarding it out of hand either. I think there's enough here to accept a possibility that this is real. And there's two ways to find out whether it is. One is to run a sufficiently large, well-designed formal experiment and somehow select mostly people who are for real (if there are any, there're apparently a lot more who aren't). If successful, this would prove it scientifically, once and for all. If it failed, it would show that either the people I found can't do what they claim, or that the whole thing is a sham. But such an experiment is quite out of my reach. The other way is to try it myself and put a legitimate effort into it. If I succeed it will prove to me that it is real; if I fail, it will tell me either I can't do it by these methods, I gave up too soon, or it isn't real. --So this is what I'm working on.

 

Additionally, if it does prove to be real, it would greatly expand what my tulpae are capable of. This makes testing it worthwhile to me, regardless of what the chances of it working are, which I'm not sure of.

 

After all, if I weren't willing to test out improbable oddball ideas, I wouldn't be in this community at all.

 

So you're telling me if a kid comes to you telling they got this super rare, strong and awesome digayman pocket version card that's like a hologram and stuff and it can never lose, you wouldn't tell him to show it to you? You'd believe him blindly? You'd believe when your friend who probably can't tell a real card from a fake card says he's seen it, but the owner of the card still refuses to show you? You say he just doesn't want attention? Well, why the hell did he point out he had that goddamn card he refuses to show, then? You don't show the card, you don't have the card, because there's no reason you'd tell others of the card if you weren't willing to prove it, if you actually had it.

 

This doesn't make you worried at all, Chupi? How Forge had to get to know Pleeb before he could do it? I asked other people, Forge has only told others to make a sigil and then it should be possible. He wasn't able to do it with you and he didn't know you. He was able to do it with Pleeb, but only after he got to know him. If this getting to know the person phase is so important, why doesn't he tell everyone that is important? It was the make it or break it deal in this case, so it obviously was important. He's not telling those who want to do this a key piece of information, if this is real. Because just sigils didn't work despite people claiming that's all you need. I know when something stinks.

 

Do I believe Pleeb is doing this just to trick us? No, I don't think he knows. It's Forge who is tricking Pleeb. Pleeb just is simple. If you can only "prove" this with one person and can't do it again, nothing was proven. Thinking this is enough proof makes you pretty easy to manipulate yourself. What happened to "for science"? Science isn't one test that could easily be manipulated into having results you want, it's a lot of tests to notice the common pattern. And that requires more than one test subject.

 

To continue your super-rare holo card analogy, no, I wouldn't blindly believe he has the card. But I wouldn't entirely discount the possibility that he does either. But what matters here isn't so much whether he owns the card, but whether the card exists and can be owned -- that is more or less what I want to find out, and what this discussion is about.

 

In terms of proof, your analogy is good. If I can find one of the cards myself, I know that it exists. This isn't particularly easy if they're hard for most people to obtain and not that many people are looking for them, but it is possible. However, to prove that it does not exist would require searching every place the card could fit on the planet.

 

Again, this is what makes metaphysics not a science: it is not falsifiable.

[Sands]

To continue your super-rare holo card analogy, no, I wouldn't blindly believe he has the card. But I wouldn't entirely discount the possibility that he does either. But what matters here isn't so much whether he owns the card, but whether the card exists and can be owned -- that is more or less what I want to find out, and what this discussion is about.

 

In terms of proof, your analogy is good. If I can find one of the cards myself, I know that it exists. This isn't particularly easy if they're hard for most people to obtain and not that many people are looking for them, but it is possible. However, to prove that it does not exist would require searching every place the card could fit on the planet.

 

Again, this is what makes metaphysics not a science: it is not falsifiable.

 

Except that this person tells you they have it, but won't show you. It's less about if the card exists and more about them waving it in your hand and then refusing to show it. Why would they tell you they have it if they're not willing to show it? That not only would prove once and for all that the card actually exists and that he has the card, two birds with one stone. Are you going to want the proof of them separately? Why? Because obviously you could see the proof to both in one go, without having to go search for the card yourself.

 

Again, Forge apparently has also kept some extremely important information from the others while telling everyone to try it themselves if this "energy signature" bullshit is needed, because Pleeb is the only person he has done it with as far as we know. What we all do know is that he doesn't talk about it to or tell others to do it.

 

I think you're being a bit too gullible here, Chupi. You think this is evidence for, a lot think it's evidence against. Why do you think that? I can tell you it's not just because we refuse to believe, if this shit was real, it would be great. I'm sure we all want shit like this to be real. But you can't say our reasons for being against this aren't valid, can you?

[Enoch327]

Live with passion seems to be the motto of this thread. So much enthusiasm for the different viewpoints. Bravo!