Self-Deceit versus Things Actually Happening

[tania]

Interesting thoughts. Thanks for that Allunova.

[Bacn]

Okay, here’s something I want to say, a penny for your thoughts. I think that the main thing Tulpae truly need to work on is independent thinking, what some call parallel processing. Perhaps, when Irish and FAQ_Man yapped away at their supposedly mute Tulpae (No disrespect intended, I understand why they did what they did), those Tulpae had to figure out how to think for themselves and break through to their hosts all on their own, resulting in a fully independent and ‘alien’ consciousness at the start of vocality. If that is true, then our current, ‘liberal’, viewpoint of host-deafness and such, and our motivated attempts to breach through the wall protecting us from insanity ourselves, do not give our tulpae anywhere near the time needed to develop full independent thought. They rely pretty much entirely on our own thoughts to speak and voice opinions yet are still undeniably /there/. Basically, our tulpae exist, but have absolutely no experience thinking on their own. As far as they can tell, they exist only when you’re thinking about them (To varying degrees and all that, but that is the essence of the problem).

 

Interesting idea. It would make a lot of sense that tulpa development time would decrease and more hosts would have trouble accepting the sentience of their tulpas if they were 'pushing' their tulpa to talk. Older guides give off the impression that they thought of tulpas as something you pump time and energy into until it grows on its own, at least that's how they feel to me.

 

Maybe for anyone who doubts their already vocal tulpa the best thing to do is to try and return to narrating while resisting the urge(which may even be highly automatic in some hosts) to help/force/listen to their tulpa speak. If it's true that older, slower guides build stronger tulpas than having faith in the sentience of a tulpa that a host is helping to talk may lead to them being weaker because of the crutch their host's support gives them.

[Lacquer]

So the solution is to use conservative tulpa making methods? I can agree with that. I always did think something was up with tulpa made with new methods that are created almost instantly. They are too close to their hosts and the only way for them to act differently is if they force (not tulpaforce) that difference.

[ThatOneStupidIdiot]

Maybe for anyone who doubts their already vocal tulpa the best thing to do is to try and return to narrating while resisting the urge(which may even be highly automatic in some hosts) to help/force/listen to their tulpa speak. If it's true that older, slower guides build stronger tulpas than having faith in the sentience of a tulpa that a host is helping to talk may lead to them being weaker because of the crutch their host's support gives them.

 

Yes, that's essentially what I've been saying. Parroting DOES become automatic when you do it that much while thinking you're not doing it, or at least it did for me. It takes a little effort to remember not to do it and to just wait to see if you can hear a response. And hearing real responses is definitely more rare for me now, but I know she'll get better at speaking/I'll get better at hearing. Of course, some would argue that the automationification of parroting is actually your subconscious taking over and therefore your tulpa, but like I said, it's comparable to mastering a skill such as playing a piano song. Eventually, it takes less thought for it to happen, but you're still causing it. There's a reason Fede's method says to eventually lay off the parroting and allow the tulpa to speak for itself. People like me seem to have skipped that step.

 

So, yeah. Ask your tulpa how her day was, don't focus on a response, and if you can't hear anything, just take in the silence as if you're talking to a kid who's refusing to speak to you. That's what I've been doing. I still parrot occasionally since then I can actually have conversations, but I'm pretty sure those fake responses are at least partially influenced by her even though I'm the one effectively speaking. But I'm also dedicating time to letting her try and speak for herself.

[Nobillis]

Ok, reading this thread has me wondering:

 

It >appears to me< like the prevalent belief is that Tulpa just "pop" into existence (sentient or not) from nothing once you start to force. Would it not make more sense for a tulpa to actually be a part of your own mind that has been further refined into a independent entity?

 

After some research into "multiple minds in one brain" and my own introspection, I came to my own conclusion that most people already have multiple different "selves" that mostly lack separate identities or parallel processing. Different selves that manifest based on the situation a person is in. You are a different person when you are alone vs being with X person or being with Y person.

 

So regarding forcing:

 

Instead of making up an entity on the spot and trying to talk to it, would it be more effective to understand better your own psyche and then target a specific part of your mind to narrate to? You would be talking to a part of your mind and treating it as a separate entity. Eventually it would develop into a separate mind. Children are born from a (small) piece of there parents, cells split, heck even ideas spawn from the development of earlier ideas.

 

So in closing:

 

Caps for emphasis: I KNOW THIS SORT OF THING HAS BEEN BROUGHT UP BEFORE, BUT WHY IS THE COMMUNITY NOT DISCUSSING IT MORE? THE CONCEPT OF A TULPA'S BIRTH SEEMS LIKE A VERY IMPORTANT IDEA TO UNDERSTAND WHEN WORKING ON A TULPA.

 

Not going to say this was my idea, but for the advancement of Tulpa.info I would suggest discussing this idea much more.

 

TL;DR Narrate to an existing part of your mind instead of trying to create something new on the spot.

[Kevin says: This is one for me to answer I think. What you are describing is pretty much the 1970's method of making tulpas. It requires a bit of discipline (read: self-control) and patience for it to work. It also takes a long time to make a fully vocal (communicating like an adult human) tulpa that way. This is the way that I made my tulpa kerin, and it is the way that the three Watchdog tulpas were made also. Each of these took years to become fully communicative. Also, they never possessed, only ever switched; even to this day.

 

Pretty much this method is used "to understand better your own psyche" and that is what the Tibetan monks have been using it for to date.

 

Though a usable method, it seems most tulpa makers these days don't have the patience for this older method. It has fallen out of favor with those who want a tulpa quick and care little for safeguards or consequences. (No I'm not criticizing, just stating facts as I perceive them, and my perspective is unusual.)

 

Tulpas made the 1970's way were only ever intended to last a small time and then be dissipated when you had learned what you wished. Myself, I felt too much compassion to do so, so I kept mine. Turns out this slow method makes tulpa that can survive a very long time, though mine is an isolated case and my tulpas are a little crazy by current standards (the 1970's were weird).

 

Meh - I'm keeping them. They will probably outlive this round of new tulpas and be around for the next too.

 

Regards,

Kevin (a human who really sucks at making tulpas)]

[Bacn]

 

Yes, that's essentially what I've been saying. Parroting DOES become automatic when you do it that much while thinking you're not doing it, or at least it did for me. It takes a little effort to remember not to do it and to just wait to see if you can hear a response. And hearing real responses is definitely more rare for me now, but I know she'll get better at speaking/I'll get better at hearing. Of course, some would argue that the automationification of parroting is actually your subconscious taking over and therefore your tulpa, but like I said, it's comparable to mastering a skill such as playing a piano song. Eventually, it takes less thought for it to happen, but you're still causing it. There's a reason Fede's method says to eventually lay off the parroting and allow the tulpa to speak for itself. People like me seem to have skipped that step.

 

So, yeah. Ask your tulpa how her day was, don't focus on a response, and if you can't hear anything, just take in the silence as if you're talking to a kid who's refusing to speak to you. That's what I've been doing. I still parrot occasionally since then I can actually have conversations, but I'm pretty sure those fake responses are at least partially influenced by her even though I'm the one effectively speaking. But I'm also dedicating time to letting her try and speak for herself.

 

I've been having the same issues you stated in your original post, namely a vocal tulpa that seems unable to act on it's own without being given attention. After doing my best to keep myself from helping her talk throughout the day I've been unable to get a single word out of her and it seems pretty good evidence that I've been babying her when it comes to vocality. Maybe having faith and staying the course would be a perfectly valid way to make a tulpa, I don't know.

 

Either way I'm vowing to never assist her talking again. I hope through this my tulpa will become much stronger and more separate from me. Instead of taking every stray thought as a possible tulpa I am going to hold her to much higher standards. I know what it feels like to have a thought feel truly separate from myself and I won't except anything less from my tulpa anymore.

 

I'd be interested in seeing other people attempt this approach, but I'll see if it at least works for me before I go recommending everyone give it a try.

[tania]

I recently due to just being very busy almost ignored my Tulpa for a few days (putting about 25% of my normal session time into him.. he's used to having my full focus on him 2-3 hrs per day.. I dropped it down to only 45mins). To my surprise after those few days of me mostly completely ignoring him, he actually started suddenly doing a lot more, speaking more, interacting with others more (this is also the time in which then he appeared to my boyfriend!!). He also even wanted to talk to this board so I posted his response to something here. Its like he suddenly was going to great lengths to get himself noticed, making sure I wasnt about to forget he's around.

 

I guess this is a good test of if you are just daydreaming your Tulpa or not (it is quite possible to daydream things and some do have lucid dreams).. ignore them, dont think of them much and see if there is a response to that. Does your Tulpa slap your in the face or do anyting to make themselves noticed?

[Guest]

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[Lacquer]

Not entirely sure about the stadium and "location in your brain where you think" bits, but otherwise, it was very interesting.

 

Are you advocating that people do more to have the tulpas speak on their own by not providing those training wheels for them?

[Guest]

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