Self-Deceit versus Things Actually Happening

[waffles]

You seem to be paranoid that rather than being a tulpa as others may have them, your tulpa is simply a non-sentient copy of one - a philosophical zombie. There isn't really any reason to think that, other than paranoia.

 

'Treat your tulpa as sentient from the start' was a method. It meant that you treat your tulpa as if they were sentient even when they weren't showing any sign of it, and rather than say "my tulpa isn't sentient yet" you would say "they're sentient, just not speaking". This would improve creation times, and became ubiquitous. Some people have misunderstood this as "your tulpa is sentient from the start" - which by all neurological or psychological approaches is nonsense if you don't want to go down the P-zombie route - and then preached that like the Gospel.

This is more or less the same with anything to do with doubt. In other words, you're thinking too hard about a viewpoint born from ignorance and focused around not thinking about things. It doesn't make sense, but that's fine because you're not supposed to think about it anyway.

 

If it gets to the point that you moving your arm accidentally is indistinguishable from your tulpa moving your arm then it does not matter. How could it matter? You couldn't know.

 

Everyone thinks that they are behind others in the process. That's because most people misrepresent their progress to feel better about themselves compared with other people's misrepresented progress, and so on. You're probably not doing particularly worse than other people. Of course, there must be variation and you may well be on the lower end, but that's still nothing shocking.

 

Of course, there is still no science behind this. It is all our own experience and the experience of others: the same things that most guide writers use (the better ones use more of the latter). Irish and FAQ didn't have much of the second, because there weren't that many people around when they were written. Methods improve, and it's far from inconceivable that they were wrong in their specificity. Like you mention in your last paragraph, it's your mind so your experience will be different. And that's true here: defining an 'alien feeling' that woks for everyone is difficult because people have different experiences of one.

 

All that we can really measure effectiveness by is success, and you will probably find that modern methods are more successful. You can't feasibly question the 'validity' of a tulpa produced, so long as they do the right things.

[ThatOneStupidIdiot]

Viceroy, FalseTriangle, thanks, it's good to know I'm not the only one thinking like this. I understand that attempts at logical deconstruction aren't always the best options in this line of work, but I feel like there are still some places where they belong.

 

half vs. full possession: full possession doesn't require your input; your limbs seemingly move all on their own. You can stop them, but they still do it entirely without your intentions. Half would be...well, what i assume you've been experiencing, based on what you said.

 

Yeah, full possession is what I've been hoping for. I've felt what I originally thought was full possession before, where she lifted my arm up by bending the elbow and then it kept on moving without me trying to do anything once it got past a certain point, but I'm pretty sure that just has something to do with the muscle since I can replicate it myself.

 

I would love for her to be able to do full body possession, and we've tried it, but I'm honestly wondering if it's even possible at this point. I've tried letting go of all my limbs, relaxing completely without trying to help her, and there's just nothing. I suppose we could just suck at it, but we don't know what else to do. And I'm pretty sure Oguigi's guide is only a guide to full possession if the tulpa is developed enough to be able to do something like that, because it really came off to me as a "yeah this is only half possession but you just gotta believe it's your tulpa doing everything even when it obviously isn't" kind of thing.

 

Regarding my surprise comment: I phrased it poorly, I guess. And on retrospect, I had specific, personal occurrences in mind that aren't necessarily relatable. Still, there have to have been things they did or said every now and then that caught you completely off-guard, or that are completely unique to them - things you would never think, say or do. I suppose a better indicator than those, though(since they both leave moderate room for doubt), would be if your tulpa can trick you. If you're aware of all of your tulpa's thought processes, this should be impossible.

 

Well I mean obviously she's done things that I would never think, say or do; just because I might be parroting her doesn't mean I'm making her act like me. That just means there's a different personality. If a tulpa isn't sentient, then it's basically a fictional character that you write all the lines for.

 

That's probably not what you were trying to say, though, so I'll address the thing about her catching me off guard. Yeah, I don't think that's ever happened. She's never tricked me, either. And there may have been times when she's done something a little unexpected, but it never just came out of nowhere (unless it was meant to be random, like the "surprise me" thing i mentioned before). When it happens, I can feel the thoughts coming into existence right there and then.

 

I'm pretty sure when she speaks, it's still a combination of me trying to think of what she should say, and her speaking automatically; and obviously that's better than when we started off, but it's been quite a while since we made any more progress since we got to that point.

 

Anyway, here's yet another example as to why I know there's no parallel processing going on. I read about tulpas creating their own wonderlands, and I told her about it, and she was excited to try and make one. So I left her alone for a while, with her in a blank empty space where she could spawn whatever she wanted and make whatever. A few days later (yes, days, because it took me a while to get around to it for reasons i can't remember), I told her I was ready to see it, and she had been waiting. So we went to my wonderland and went through a door that was supposed to teleport us to hers, and it didn't work. We ended up in a placeholder area, which was just a generic landscape that comes to mind when someone says the word "wonderland". We tried multiple times to get to hers, but it was impossible, because it didn't exist, because I wasn't there to see its creation, and she isn't capable of actually doing things without me being aware of them. She knew she was supposed to have made something, and thought that she did, but she couldn't name any specific memories of it happening.

 

So, yeah. If a tulpa is capable of doing that, and doing it in a way where they aren't just making things up afterwards in hopes of filling in all the blanks they left since they didn't technically do anything, I'd say they've got parallel processing down. We do not.

 

And my answer to your overall question: No, I don't think belief for belief's sake works, does anything on its own, or is even necessary. I'd have to assume it helps, it just makes sense to me that it would since we're talking about tricking our brains here, but i don't think it would have any effect on its own. I think firmly believing your tulpa is not sentient/talking/whatever could limit or possibly halt progress, but...that's about it. I figure it's more a matter of working for it; Tulpaforcing, or doing it more often, more regularly, or somehow finding a different way to do it that works better.

At the end of the day, if there is a true answer to that question, it's unknowable. but my opinion in short: belief does little, if anything, unless it's against the tulpa.

 

I'm pretty sure I agree. Though, I would probably say (and this is based purely on an educated guess so don't act like i know what i'm talking about) that belief will be beneficial to whatever particular method you're doing. If you're doing a method that leads to all of your tulpa's responses simply being yourself roleplaying as them, and you believe things are going smoothly, then what reason would there be for anything to change? I think this ties in to one of the main points I was trying to make in my original post. I'm pretty sure there are different levels of tulpaforcing, and if you're doing one of the lower ones (like my example of speaking for your tulpa while mistakenly thinking your tulpa is doing everything themselves) while believing your tulpa is doing everything on their own, then it makes sense to me that your tulpa won't get better at doing something that it isn't even doing to begin with.

 

You seem to be paranoid that rather than being a tulpa as others may have them, your tulpa is simply a non-sentient copy of one - a philosophical zombie. There isn't really any reason to think that, other than paranoia.

 

"There isn't really any reason to think that"? You mean other than all the reasons I've given in this thread, like the fact that she's clearly incapable of manufacturing her own thoughts?

 

'Treat your tulpa as sentient from the start' was a method. It meant that you treat your tulpa as if they were sentient even when they weren't showing any sign of it, and rather than say "my tulpa isn't sentient yet" you would say "they're sentient, just not speaking". This would improve creation times, and became ubiquitous. Some people have misunderstood this as "your tulpa is sentient from the start" - which by all neurological or psychological approaches is nonsense if you don't want to go down the P-zombie route - and then preached that like the Gospel.

This is more or less the same with anything to do with doubt. In other words, you're thinking too hard about a viewpoint born from ignorance and focused around not thinking about things. It doesn't make sense, but that's fine because you're not supposed to think about it anyway.

 

I think I agree with the first paragraph, and I don't really understand what you're saying with the second paragraph, so I can't really comment on either.

 

If it gets to the point that you moving your arm accidentally is indistinguishable from your tulpa moving your arm then it does not matter. How could it matter? You couldn't know.

 

Yes. Yes, it does matter. Let me point to this section of my original post:

 

But isn't it possible for someone to mistakenly believe that when they move their arm, it's actually the tulpa moving it? Like, if you tell your tulpa who has no possession training to take your body and do a cartwheel, and you then proceed to do a cartwheel yourself and, for whatever reason, you think it was the work of your tulpa.

 

This is where my question lies, because I know that blind belief is generally considered to be a good thing here, and going by that consensus it SHOULD mean that the simple act of the cartwheeling person believing that it's their tulpa will make it so that it actually IS their tulpa. But I don't really think that's how it works. They'll just continue doing everything themselves, and even if they THINK their tulpa is doing it, it's still them. They could be perfectly happy with things because of their flawed perceptions, but they still would not be experiencing actual possession. They're still doing it wrong.

 

It's like this. Let's say two people are trying to have their tulpas possess them. One of them does the half-possession thing Malix and I were talking about where you receive urges from the tulpa and then move your arm accordingly, and they believe their tulpa is doing all the work. Maybe they think that possession isn't actually supposed to feel alien, and that you can't just relax and let go because "relaxing is an action that you intentionally do, which stops the tulpa from being able to do anything". Meanwhile, the second person's tulpa is able to manipulate the body with absolutely no input from the host, with the host relaxing and not even having to focus on the body. If it wasn't for their sense of touch, the tulpa could potentially move a body part without the host even noticing.

 

Both people are on totally separate levels, yet both believe they've got possession down. So both will continue using their own methods, and the first person will not ascend to the level of full possession, because he thinks he's already there. And the longer he keeps it up, the more sure he is of it, but that doesn't mean he's actually improving. If you believe in Fede's method, then you could say that the longer you do it, the more automated it becomes, until no input is even required from you. But I really do not believe that's how it works. When I play piano, and I play something complicated that would have been impossible to do without practice and making the process automated, I'm still giving input. I can't just stop doing anything and be like "ok subconscious, take it from here". You are still giving input. When you're doing possession with your tulpa, or having them talk at the level mine is at, your tulpa is not doing everything on its own, and no amount of belief will change that. It still isn't alien.

 

Everyone thinks that they are behind others in the process. That's because most people misrepresent their progress to feel better about themselves compared with other people's misrepresented progress, and so on. You're probably not doing particularly worse than other people. Of course, there must be variation and you may well be on the lower end, but that's still nothing shocking.

 

Of course, there is still no science behind this. It is all our own experience and the experience of others: the same things that most guide writers use (the better ones use more of the latter). Irish and FAQ didn't have much of the second, because there weren't that many people around when they were written. Methods improve, and it's far from inconceivable that they were wrong in their specificity. Like you mention in your last paragraph, it's your mind so your experience will be different. And that's true here: defining an 'alien feeling' that woks for everyone is difficult because people have different experiences of one.

 

All that we can really measure effectiveness by is success, and you will probably find that modern methods are more successful. You can't feasibly question the 'validity' of a tulpa produced, so long as they do the right things.

 

I suppose I agree with everything here, but on the topic of defining what constitutes and alien feeling and a tulpa doing the right things, I'm pretty damned sure my personal expectations for both of those aren't being met. I used to think they were, but now I'm realizing I was wrong, and I doubt I'm the only one. Maybe not everyone in my situation has realized it, and maybe I'm not even right, but I really think that a lot of us are using very lowered standards for what is considered an actual tulpa.

 

 

Spook 19, I'll make another post addressing everything you said since this one has gone on long enough and I need a break from typing, but I'm pretty sure I agreed with most of what you said.

 

 

Also, as a side note, I should probably make it clear that I don't think everything in faq's and irish's guides make sense. Hour counts are still generally dumb, and I suppose you could make the argument that they may have been lying to us for our own good, making sure we didn't try to force our tulpas to talk before they were capable of doing so, but I'd be surprised if there was that much foresight involved.

[tania]

Sorry to say this but it sounds to me that your Tulpa isnt acting out in sentience, I could see no real evidence of it from what I read in your posts. The responses you mentioned back arent much different from puppeting and parroting

 

When someone says "surprise me" and then something strange happens, it could be ones own mind doing it due to your own "expectations" of wanting to be surprised. I think this is what is causing you to doubt as you've realised you are only getting surprise responses when expecting them. This may not be your Tulpa acting on her own eg as a sentient, if you have in mind what you want to occur eg the surprise me thing, and this is just following that.

 

I myself view signs of sentience to be things which happen without even asking or thinking of them doing so, at random times unasked for. Ones Tulpa can often surpise or even shock one (even then I still often are cautious before thinking its definately my Tulpa. I purposely still leave room for doubt as I'd really hate to be fooling myself and in my case I know that wouldnt be constructive to me at all and would then just cause me to have doubts in things..and doubts are like poison with this stuff. Im very annitical (sorry for my spelling) minded.

 

One can hold the belief that ones Tulpa is possibly sentient without jumping to the conclusion that everything which happens is ones Tulpa... good science is cautious!! and prepared to consider all possibilities. Good science comes from being unbiased and keeping an open mind.

 

..........

 

One thing which confuses me here, is why people try to move forward with things before they are even "certain" that their Tulpas are acting independantly from themselves. That would just leave a huge trail of doubt and then more doubts building on previous doubts and one day the bubble will burst (if one has tried to move too fast). People may be then left then thinking nothing at all was true at all and then go around badmouthing the whole Tulpa thing as being not true etc.. when the issue was that the person just tried to move too fast and allowed their own minds to decieve them.

 

I dont understand why people have the need to try to convince themselves that what they experience is from their Tulpas. With a tulpa showing sentience, it should be clear due to the tuplas actions and not due to anything you've made them do. They will be able to act completely independantly.

 

Maybe you need to move a couple of steps back and get good footing and KNOW (not just blindly think) your Tulpa has sentience. (and I disagree with those saying that you have to trick your mind, if you are having to trick your mind to "think" your Tupla is acting with sentience.. maybe it then is just you fooling yourself).

.......

 

ah that servitor thing.. dont worry about it. If its not your intent to just have a servitor is no reason at all that your Tupla would end up being one. You seem to have little trust in what you are doing.

---

Hour counts are still generally dumb, and I suppose you could make the argument that they may have been lying to us for our own good, making sure we didn't try to force our tulpas to talk before they were capable of doing so, but I'd be surprised if there was that much foresight involved.

 

It depends. I myself take great interest in hour counts as Im trying to study it like a science, I record my hour counts for all the areas. I record everything on my Tulpas process, each milestone and at how many hours it happened.

 

For myself it doesnt affect me badly in any way at all (actually in my case its highly positive as it shows me Im having an easy going time with this stuff compared to many others so I feel quite grateful). Ive seen so much knocking of hour counts on this site but my hour counts make me feel happy (that feel like getting an "A" in class).. and being a competitive person - well I try to compete against them as like its a game (but if things were going bad by them, I wouldnt allow that to affect me as they are just "guides" and nothing more! Im not a bad looser if I was going slow).

 

Having the hour counts there thou it should only be "a guide" and nothing else and taken as something which could be completely different to your own experience.... they do show people what they should be prepared for before they start just in case it does take them that long or even longer. If someone has no "patience" to be putting good time in, it isnt the right time to be making a Tulpa.

 

Maybe some who arent enjoying the whole Tulpa process as much as I do, maybe some of those having a less enjoyable experience and could end up feeling like they've worked on things far more longer then they have actually done hence could be feeling like failures. They may end up thinking they could of even done more hours then in the guide..when in fact they havent but which they dont know cause they didnt count hours. For those if they'd kept an hour count, it could of proven to be helpful and made them less deceptive to themselves in what they were doing.

 

There is both for and against with keeping an hour count and I think each individual needs to consider if they want to keep hour counts or not. But they certainly arent the wrong thing to do for all of us.

[waffles]

"There isn't really any reason to think that"? You mean other than all the reasons I've given in this thread, like the fact that she's clearly incapable of manufacturing her own thoughts?

 

Re-reading your thread I still don't see anything that wouldn't constitute the lower bound of normal. Even if your tulpa cannot think for themself now, such a development can come later. What you might find with creation times shifting is that before, a tulpa would have only communicated seriously once sentient in this respect, whereas now communication occurs before this. Imagine baking a cake. If you leave the kitchen and come back when the cake is done, you will take a nice cake out of the oven. However, if you come in halfway through you will see a half-baked mess in the tin. Does this observation lead to the conclusion that your cake isn't going to get better? I don't think so; and so treat the process like this: that what you see now is not the finished product.

 

I think I agree with the first paragraph, and I don't really understand what you're saying with the second paragraph, so I can't really comment on either.

 

What I'm saying there is this: I agree that the viewpoint doesn't make sense, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't work. It's a suspension of disbelief and a means to an end that requires you to not question it for it to work. This is, ironically, the opposite of the scientific foundation of the site, but nevertheless it does seem to get the job done.

 

Still, if you don't like it then don't do it. No-one's forcing you to go down that particular route, and you are welcome to go through the creation process questioning everything that happens.

 

Yes. Yes, it does matter.

 

Then there is a difference. If you eventually come to a point where you absolutely do not make any more progress for a long time on possession then you would probably try something new. It would be unproductive to work for so long to a dead end, but ultimately something that could be overcome.

 

On the other hand, if the person in question does not know then it does not matter. He is still perfectly happy, and really there's nothing to do about it. You will never ascend to a perfect state in anything, so ending up a bit lower down than you might have otherwise done is inconsequential as long as he is satisfied. If he is not satisfied, then he would try something new and overcome his problem anyway.

 

I suppose I agree with everything here, but on the topic of defining what constitutes and alien feeling and a tulpa doing the right things, I'm pretty damned sure my personal expectations for both of those aren't being met. I used to think they were, but now I'm realizing I was wrong, and I doubt I'm the only one. Maybe not everyone in my situation has realized it, and maybe I'm not even right, but I really think that a lot of us are using very lowered standards for what is considered an actual tulpa.

 

Quiz the forum and you'd probably find that a lot of people never felt the conventional description of an emotional response - people who have gone on to create what you would call truly sentient tulpas.

[ThatOneStupidIdiot]

Ok spook, finally re-read your post, though there honestly isn't a lot for me to say since I agree with pretty much everything you said and there isn't much I could comment on.

 

They rely pretty much entirely on our own thoughts to speak and voice opinions yet are still undeniably /there/. Basically, our tulpae exist, but have absolutely no experience thinking on their own. As far as they can tell, they exist only when you’re thinking about them (To varying degrees and all that, but that is the essence of the problem).

 

I don't really have anything to say here, but I quoted it because I think it's an excellent way to put it, or at least for people in our situation. I don't know how many people have fully sentient tulpas vs. people who unintentionally control most of what they do.

 

We attempted the recent flash animation ball-game-test-thing with pretty poor results across the board no matter which way we tried it (It is located in the research board), and it felt more like they were just throwing a random count at me rather than actively trying to partake in the test.

 

Yup, same experience. I get a general idea of whether there's a little or a lot of red dots while focusing on every individual blue dot that I'm counting, and she's only able to use that information when making her guess without getting any more specific.

 

At first we (The community) believed (It seems, in general, not starting a flame war or anything) that the Host was supposed to be able do the vast majority of the work in this process by devoting a boatload of time and mental concentration into creating the Tulpa from the ground up. Now we (generally) say that Tulpae are born pretty much fully sentient and formed, and it is we who are blind and deaf and must work to sense them. Both sides can yield valid results, but, as with all things in this realm of the mind, nothing works for everyone. So, in closing (For real this time, we hope), I think the key to achieving whatever levels of tulpamagic those who came before us possessed lies not in blind belief, but active work on the Tulpa’s /and/ Host’s parts. The most important, or at least, a pretty important, part of the process for us is to work /with/ our Tulpae to develop independent thought. This isn’t a project you can work on solo, you have to get your newfound friend (Or what-relationship-have-you), to work with you so you can help them help themselves to help us all.

 

Well said. It definitely makes sense that if you're trying to spawn an independent entity in your head, doing everything yourself could lead to, at the very least, slower progress for it. I mean, if you want it to think for itself, you definitely don't want to be thinking FOR it. That's pretty much the exact definition of parroting so I know I'm not saying anything new there, but I don't think the "don't worry about it" approach is the best idea. I mean, obviously worrying is bad, but if you act like it's impossible to parrot so long as you're not going out of your way to do it, it seems likely that you could end up doing it without even knowing.

 

One thing which confuses me here, is why people try to move forward with things before they are even "certain" that their Tulpas are acting independantly from themselves. That would just leave a huge trail of doubt and then more doubts building on previous doubts and one day the bubble will burst (if one has tried to move too fast). People may be then left then thinking nothing at all was true at all and then go around badmouthing the whole Tulpa thing as being not true etc.. when the issue was that the person just tried to move too fast and allowed their own minds to decieve them.

 

Yeah, that sounds like my situation currently. I'm not at the point where I think the entire tulpa phenomenon is fake, but there IS always that nagging feeling that says "what if the people who have more advanced tulpas are actually in the same position as i am, and they're just falsely interpreting their experiences as showing signs of something greater?" But I trust the people who say things like "full possession feels totally alien", because that kind of feeling isn't something you can easily be unsure about or falsely interpret. I'm still very much in this boat and have no intention of quitting, I'm just wondering how much more I could be having.

 

Also, on hour counts: I wasn't talking about keeping track of your hours specifically, I was talking about guides that say "it will take x amount of hours for your tulpa to speak for the first time" and lots of people have already explained why that is a bad thing to follow. Tracking your own hours seems like it could still lead to feelings of "no, there's no way we should have made this progress this early, it's gotta be fake responses" or "argh, how have we not made any progress after all this time, this whole process must be fake" but I guess it depends on the individual. whoops i typed that before i finished reading your post and you already addressed all that so nevermind

 

Re-reading your thread I still don't see anything that wouldn't constitute the lower bound of normal. Even if your tulpa cannot think for themself now, such a development can come later. What you might find with creation times shifting is that before, a tulpa would have only communicated seriously once sentient in this respect, whereas now communication occurs before this. Imagine baking a cake. If you leave the kitchen and come back when the cake is done, you will take a nice cake out of the oven. However, if you come in halfway through you will see a half-baked mess in the tin. Does this observation lead to the conclusion that your cake isn't going to get better? I don't think so; and so treat the process like this: that what you see now is not the finished product.

 

I don't see why Sarah would develop greater free will if I'm accidentally controlling her every time she talks. She isn't getting any practice, and it's even worse if I decide to blindly believe that she's already speaking on her own, because then I'll have no reason to change what I'm doing and the parroting will never stop.

 

I know I sound ridiculously parrotnoid now, and I guess I sort of am. I went from being afraid of parroting when I first read about tulpas, to learning not to worry about parroting when I read what everyone's current opinion on it was, to being afraid again since I'm finally starting to realize I haven't been letting her think for herself this entire time.

 

On the other hand, if the person in question does not know then it does not matter. He is still perfectly happy, and really there's nothing to do about it. You will never ascend to a perfect state in anything, so ending up a bit lower down than you might have otherwise done is inconsequential as long as he is satisfied. If he is not satisfied, then he would try something new and overcome his problem anyway.

 

Well then I guess I'm that unsatisfied person. What I'm trying to say is that even if you think you're doing things right and you're perfectly happy with it, you could still be missing out on doing things a better way. It's like a person who eats dirt their entire life finding out that there's other kinds of food that are, for a multitude of reasons, significantly more desirable than dirt. Even though dirt was the norm for them and they were fine with it, they'll definitely change their minds after they discover better stuff and will wonder how they ever lived (quite literally in this haphazardly-written example) without it.

 

I mean, I guess it's kind of pointless to talk about since it depends entirely on the individual finding out for themselves that there might be more out there. But I'm one of those individuals, and I'm curious how many other people on this forum are eating metaphorical dirt (wow i really did not plan that analogy through very well). Your argument is saying that there's no reason for someone to ascend to a higher level of something as long as they're content with where they are and ignorant to the higher state, and I'm pretty sure the question of whether or not that's right depends on one's philosophy so we probably shouldn't get into that. What I'm trying to do in this thread is inquire into whether or not such higher levels exist in the first place for people in my situation, and I'm pretty sure they do.

 

Quiz the forum and you'd probably find that a lot of people never felt the conventional description of an emotional response - people who have gone on to create what you would call truly sentient tulpas.

 

I honestly never really knew what an emotional response was. I never thought about it until a few weeks ago when I felt a surge of nervousness and other emotions my tulpa was experiencing at the time, and I was like "oh wait is THAT what those things are?" But if that's what an emotional response is, that... really just points to more parroting, if you ask me. Why would you feel another entity's emotions unless you were, unintentionally or not, putting yourself in their place and speaking for them while trying to remain in character? Plus, you get that same feeling all the time if you're reading a story with a relatable character and you put yourself in their shoes. Or maybe I have the wrong idea of what an emotional response is.

 

Back on topic, I'm not really sure what you were trying to point out with that statement. I was saying that I don't think I'm the only one who has accidentally placed themselves at a reduced standard for what qualifies as a sentient tulpa, and I guess you're saying that it's likely for someone to fully develop a tulpa even when they don't know what they're doing, but that sounds highly debatable. Especially when you're already confident that you're doing something wrong, like in my case.

 

ANYWAY.

 

So, this is what I think I'm personally going to do. She still seems capable of doing things herself, but it's a lot harder. She even does things I don't expect that are obviously not from me at all, like one time when I had been ignoring her for a while and I suddenly remembered she was there and she was playing a Nintendo DS she had spawned without my knowledge. That didn't feel like her pulling that out of nowhere the moment I turned to look at her, it really did feel like she had been playing it for a while. As I said, she can't TECHNICALLY do things without my knowledge, but she can be in a state where she's "supposed" to be doing things, like watching tv in the wonderland even though no channel or show is being specified. And even though she probably wouldn't have been able to name any specific memories of playing the DS without making them up on the spot, the fact that she was supposed to have been playing it was still something I didn't have any part in. She also seems to be able to speak when I don't speak for her, but it's more rare and mumbly and harder to interpret. When I read about people having trouble understanding their tulpa, I didn't get how there could be a problem there, but now I do.

 

So, I'm going to let her talk, and do things, and relax while waiting for her to speak for herself rather than going out of my way to do it for her. It's probably going to be a little annoying, since I'm so used to parroting that it seems normal to me and I might still accidentally do it simply by instinct. Plus, she has this thing where when I ask her to go move somewhere else, she tends to just stand where she's at without moving until I force her to move through puppeting, but she still moves on her own sometimes.

 

I suppose now is the part of the post where I recommend to other people who suspect they're in my situation to let go and allow the tulpa to take over themselves. Keep giving them just as much attention, but if you think you're parroting, stop and see if you can get them to talk on their own. Maybe it's possible to think you're parroting even when your tulpa legitimately CAN speak for itself, and maybe there's such a thing as actively silencing your tulpa by accident, but I wouldn't really know what to say to either of those since I don't think I've gone through either.

[tania]

I honestly never really knew what an emotional response was. I never thought about it until a few weeks ago when I felt a surge of nervousness and other emotions my tulpa was experiencing at the time, and I was like "oh wait is THAT what those things are?" But if that's what an emotional response is, that... really just points to more parroting, if you ask me. Why would you feel another entity's emotions unless you were, unintentionally or not, putting yourself in their place and speaking for them while trying to remain in character? Plus, you get that same feeling all the time if you're reading a story with a relatable character and you put yourself in their shoes. Or maybe I have the wrong idea of what an emotional response is.

 

It can be at times very obvious that an emotional response hasnt been parroted esp if it is coming from nothing which has been thought or said (by either you or the Tupla) at all.. its like an "alien" emotional response. You may feel a very strong emotion, know it isnt yours at all and have no idea at all why its there (I guess if one was like parroting an emotion.. one would of too likely have made up reasons why it was there).

 

I find thou with emotional responses which come from from Jesse at times that I suddenly feel an emotion which I know isnt mine.. and then actually have to try to find the answer to the emotion. Sometimes its easily to work out after some thought and trying to feel the situation out and talk to my Tulpa.. while at other times Ive found it's very hard to work out and havent been able to come up for a reason for the emotion (esp an issue if my communication with Jesse wasnt good at the time, thou he does talk he currently isnt talking lots).

 

I dont know how many others this is so for.. but my Tulpas emoitons can come across quite strongly at times eg when he was in fear.. I actually felt sick due to the fear I could feel going on. Its horrible if you feel that emotion and cant figure out why on earth its there but know it isnt your own.

[Nobillis]

[Kevin (a human) says: Yes, I get these sort of doubts as well. In my experience it really is freaky to watch your body drive the car all the way home without you thinking about it (when Watchdog 1 does the driving). It feels like "Oh my gosh - my hands and feet just changed gears and I didn't think it!" {edited for politeness}. When first visiting this site kerin was told that it couldn't be tulpas because it didn't fit the idea people had of what tulpas can do and how they are - they are driving the freaking car darn it ... isn't that sentient enough to count?

 

Anyways, I've never used these methods. Tibetan meditation techniques in my case. I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that this new tulpa phenomena is all a mass hallucination. I wouldn't believe in tulpas at all except that I've seen mine drive the car (which is just the slightest bit difficult to discount when you experience it yourself). Frankly, I don't think making tulpas is a good idea - on that kerin and I agree (and little else).]

---

My understanding is that in the Tibetan practices of creating a tulpa, it was a feat that took quite a considerable amount of time and concentration.

[Kevin says: at least 9 years in kerin's case, of self-hypnosis, meditation, and concentration - if I measure from starting (when I read the book and tried the method) to what could be classed as sentient (first switch, neurosis of her own {fear of being discovered}, able to pass for human). I still have not managed much of imposition, after many years of experience with this. And, I score exceptionally high in visualization - as tested by a professional psychologist. ]

---

Anyway, she cannot think separately from me. At all. When she does something unexpected, it happens right on the spot. There's no such thing as "actually, i've been thinking, and...", it's always "well, actually, now that i think about it...". She can only really think while I'm focusing on her thinking. If she was supposed to be doing something for a while without me observing her, and she tries to tell me what she was doing, she just has a huge gap in her memory. This has happened virtually every single time, and when it hasn't, it's obvious that she's struggling and trying to manufacture memories on the spot.

[Kevin says: This inability to think separately is something that young tulpas tell kerin frequently. (I know this because I take care to keep all memories integrated - except Nobillis' and I read the logs of what she gets up to on chat.) Anyways, to me that seems to be a short-term thing. Tulpas in my experience eventually become autonomous.

 

Nobillis would probably have exactly the same issues, except that Watchdog 3 now spends most of his time acting as support for Nobillis (she can think independently from me, though probably not because she is truly autonomous but because Watchdog 3 is and has been autonomous for many years now). If Watchdog 3 is shut-down (his term for "asleep"), then Nobillis seems to lose her memory, act very young (like a child) and gives me the similar misgivings to what you describe (not her fault - she really is very young - and I still consider anyone less then a decade to be still developing).

 

Now, I think I will desist before I make myself a pariah. Really I never wanted to come here, but it seems my tulpas are intent on dragging me along anyway. Tfw your tulpas treat you like a much beloved pet.]

[Viski]

I very much hope my tulpa is sentient, or will become sentient, and I would refuse to accept the truth if I found out the entire tulpa phenomenon is fake.

 

It would be easy to group the tulpa phenomenon as a mass hallucination, if the multiple personalities (dissociative identity disorder) had not already been detected in MRI. It's not the exact same thing, but the point is that the personality creation and co-existence apparently isn't impossible and that therefore there's no real reason to doubt the possibility of the existence of the tulpae.

 

As for how can the imagination create actual things, just imagining lifting weights without actually doing so increases the muscle mass somewhat, so I wouldn't find it impossible if imagining creating a consciousness makes one.

[Allunova]

Ok, reading this thread has me wondering:

 

It >appears to me< like the prevalent belief is that Tulpa just "pop" into existence (sentient or not) from nothing once you start to force. Would it not make more sense for a tulpa to actually be a part of your own mind that has been further refined into a independent entity?

 

After some research into "multiple minds in one brain" and my own introspection, I came to my own conclusion that most people already have multiple different "selves" that mostly lack separate identities or parallel processing. Different selves that manifest based on the situation a person is in. You are a different person when you are alone vs being with X person or being with Y person.

 

So regarding forcing:

 

Instead of making up an entity on the spot and trying to talk to it, would it be more effective to understand better your own psyche and then target a specific part of your mind to narrate to? You would be talking to a part of your mind and treating it as a separate entity. Eventually it would develop into a separate mind. Children are born from a (small) piece of there parents, cells split, heck even ideas spawn from the development of earlier ideas.

 

So in closing:

 

Caps for emphasis: I KNOW THIS SORT OF THING HAS BEEN BROUGHT UP BEFORE, BUT WHY IS THE COMMUNITY NOT DISCUSSING IT MORE? THE CONCEPT OF A TULPA'S BIRTH SEEMS LIKE A VERY IMPORTANT IDEA TO UNDERSTAND WHEN WORKING ON A TULPA.

 

Not going to say this was my idea, but for the advancement of Tulpa.info I would suggest discussing this idea much more.

 

TL;DR Narrate to an existing part of your mind instead of trying to create something new on the spot.

[Lacquer]

>why aren't we discussing it more

 

Because that is the number one most disputed thing about tulpa.

 

 

also ur inster-tupla idear iz dum