The One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge is offered by the James Randi Educational

[Dr. Faust]

 

Can you give a few examples?

 

I agree with Shui; science isn't some group of people out to get your ideas. And besides, it really does stop being metaphysics once it's scientifically accepted: you do tend to define magic and the like as 'not accepted by science'.

 

Shui's example was also the reason why I thought tulpa could win the challenge because tulpa can simultaneously be occult or scientific and a proper scientific explanation does not yet exist.

[Sands]

I don't see how Shui's example is both occult and scientific at the same time. It was what was believed to cause things and hey, if you want to hang onto that part of your tradition just because it's fun, go ahead. It will help you stay alive anyways. But science wanted to know what really happened and found a way to prove something else. Is there both bacteria and fair folk around? Who the fuck knows. But the only thing that has been proven is bacteria and every time something spoils, you can bet your ass it can be tested to have a scientific reason why it spoiled. I don't see how that exactly is occult. Or how it was "stolen" like Trace claims but hey. Trace is Trace, better not expect anything smart coming out of his mouth.

 

Just because a scientific explanation doesn't exist doesn't mean it is automatically occult, either. It's a matter of time in most cases, first something has to look legit enough and then someone has to find a way to prove it. But our mind is a pretty whack place, so will that happen during our lifetimes? Dunno. Will it ever happen? Dunno, maybe this whole tulpa thing dies and no one cares.

 

Don't know about you, but any way I look at tuppers, I see nothing that could even suggest them being something occult. Imagination, hallucinations, delusions and placebo all are actual things I might not fully understand but I know they're happening, because I have experienced them all. Multiple personality disorders and such, well, some don't believe they are actually real, but I could believe that it is. It happens often enough and there's people whose lives are being ruined because of it. Ruining your life just for attention seems weird as fuck but eh, maybe I'm wrong. Attentionwhores are a strange breed after all. None of the things I listed are seen as something paranormal. Maybe not normal in all cases but certainly not paranormal. And those all are things that tuppers use, yeah? I see no magic or demon summoning anywhere on the list.

[waffles]

About your example, in this case his ancestors saw the phenomena - bread rising, milk curdling, illness and death, and so on - and created a magical explanation. Science comes in and tells us that this explanation is wrong, and uses the scientific method to discover the true cause of these phenomena. Now, the phenomena have an accepted scientific explanation and as such aren't really occult any more. There may exist an occult explanation, but it is superseded by the scientific one. What is still occult is the idea of 'fair folk'.

 

And I should point out that science did not 'steal' anything here. I don't know if you really think that bacteria are invisible but they aren't. But the idea that the bacteriologists took or were even helped along by your ancestors' 'fair folk' isn't at all correct. What you seem to think is that, because the phenomena were first given an occult explanation, 'science stole' the phenomena by explaining them. Which is obviously nonsense.

 

And the relevance to tulpas, then. Well, you're still wrong. There's nothing really unexplained here. Yes, we do somewhat lack a complete explanation at the moment, but if you think that makes it magic then please, just stop and think about it. The JREF aren't complete idiots, and I couldn't bring them a proton and claim the prize because there are a few discrepancies in our models right now.

Let me put it another way; they're looking for phenomena that are seemingly magic, and not explanations. Anyone could make up a magical explanation of something that hasn't quite been explained by science yet, but no-one can show you telepathy or whatever. That's always been the objective of this prize, and tulpas do not display any such phenomena. Head voices? Pretty mundane. And so on with everything else. I shouldn't even have to explain it; it just seems like common sense to me.

[Dr. Faust]

I'm not trying to say science steals anything but I just thought that if something could win this challenge it'd be something on the verge of being explained.

 

Tulpae aren't quite the same as summoned entities but they could be of the same phenomena as evocations (summoning entities to talk to) and invocation (possession of your body by an entity) and the guides for these occult practices read very similarly to tulpa creation.

 

However these aren't exactly mystical demons (except in one's own imagination) but rather creations of thought. A consciousness that communicate to yours within your own mind.

 

And let's just forget the JREF and that dumb prize for a second, a second consciousness period created by your mind and imagination is amazing and challenges the normal experience of consciousness. The discovery and explanation of this is absolutely incredible.

 

However getting back to the JREF - the discussion at this point should be over. If we're to really take this seriously and move towards a completely scientific explanation then we should just aim towards solidifying our current knowledge and standardizing it. An application to the JREF does not put us in good company for scienfically viable ideas and seems to divide us as a community. By the way, I still haven't gotten a response.

 

Maybe we could try to win some lesser scientific award instead.

 

EDIT: Also, waffles, I don't even think we have a starting point within scientific literature that explains what a tulpa is. I mean we have our experiences, a few guides, but I have yet to see something ground in psychology and psychiatry attempting to explain this. I mean the concept of an Atom as a particle existed in Greece but I'm not sure it was scientifically viable as a concept at that point. Granted we can just say hallucination and schizophrenia but I have to read up on these subjects to learn about self-induced versions of these. Furthermore, if this is a self-induced illness but does not interfere with our day to day lives and maybe even improves our lives perhaps this would force us to reexamine the basic ideas of those two concepts and many others.

 

However I may have skipped over that post or topic in the forum putting forth a theory, so feel free to clue me in. I want this explanation to exist even if we have to write it out ourselves and I'm willing to write it out.

[waffles]

Actually, standard ideas about consciousness challenge the idea of a tulpa being conscious, not the other way around. It's not proven, it's questionable.

 

You can look and dig up some old research topics that put forward theories if you want. There are enough of them there in a small enough board. But let me give you a basic idea: you think about your tulpa thinking, doing personality or parroting and thus form an idea of how they are supposed to think. Through talking to them you stimulate their thinking, thereby 'learning' their thought process so that it becomes unconscious.

[Antylamon]

But let me give you a basic idea: you think about your tulpa thinking, doing personality or parroting and thus form an idea of how they are supposed to think. Through talking to them you stimulate their thinking, thereby 'learning' their thought process so that it becomes unconscious.

 

I came to the same conclusion. But who's to say that the default human mind isn't the same?

 

The question of tulpa consciousness is more and more becoming a philosophical question rather than a scientific one. For instance, it raises questions such as: What is the difference between thought and simulated thought, if any? What is the difference between knowing someone and knowing a fictional character, if any? They can be answered scientifically, theoretically, but since we do not have access to that information at this time, it is forced into the realm of philosophy.

[Sands]

I'm not trying to say science steals anything

 

Just as a heads up, no one said you did say that. I think. But Trace did in fact say that and that's what's baffling us.