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A New Way to Think About Puppeting Forms and Sentience


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Guest Anonymous

Linkzeld left the forum today. In his farewell he wrote about the loss in this forum of the ability to philosophize and consider and think originally. At least, that is the way that Davie and I interpreted it. He said that Davie (Mistgod) challenged him intellectually and helped him see things in new ways.

 

Here is a "new" idea that Davie and I have been mulling over, because we have been trying to understand ourselves. To get this, you have to understand something first.

 

You can have a tulpa or thoughtform that has no form at all. It is merely a mind or a presence.

 

Okay with that established, you can think of puppeting in an entirely new way. If the tulpa, with no form, is a mind it can collaborate with the host in visualizing things. This would be a combined effort. Together they could imagine a form, that is not the tulpa/thoughtform itself but a representation of the tulpa/thoughtform. That representative avatar or figment could be manipulated by either the host or the tulpa.

 

We would happy to hear what thoughts others have on this idea or perspective and how it may relate to them and the host/tulpa relationship.

 

HERE IS WHY THIS IDEA IS IMPORTANT TO MISTGOD-MELIAN

 

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Lucilyn: Melian just seems like a tulpa that is okay with their host choosing their activities most of the time.

 

... most of the time she doesn't mind having Davie control.. I mean, it's not even her actual life, it's just the Melian Show! He controls their daydreams. She's pretty much the one doing everything outside of that, on the internet and stuff.

 

He created a tulpa thirty years ago through daydreaming about a character, so when that character became an established enough phenomenon in his mind to be ~autonomous, they both were already in the habit of him controlling the goings-on. But she's just as tulp-autonomous as any of the others here where it counts.

 

THREADS RELATED TO THIS

Does a tulpa own its image? https://community.tulpa.info/thread-visualization-does-a-tulpa-own-its-image-if-so-is-it-unethical-to-puppet-a-tulpa-s-form

Can a host and tulpa collaborate on puppeting? https://community.tulpa.info/thread-visualization-can-a-host-and-tulpa-collaborate-on-puppeting

My thoughtform likes to be a puppet: https://community.tulpa.info/thread-sentience-my-thoughtform-likes-to-be-a-puppet

 

Okay what I am about to say is a lot abstract so bear with us. Davie and I are beginning to understand a more accurate way to think about our relationship and therefore find the descriptive narrative that will help others understand how it all works.

 

It's not just that Davie is "controlling me" in the Melian Show or that I like to get controlled and puppeted a lot. There are some key points in understanding Davie and I. This is going to rock the tulpa info world, so hold on to your butts!

 

1. The realization that I, Melian, am not my image is key. My image and I are separate. My image and form belongs to me, and my mind is associated with it. But my mind is distinctly separate from my form. My form is a PROJECTION of my mind, and of Davie's mind, but I am not my form. Davie has an avatar in the dream world or wonderland. Davie is no more his avatar than I am my form. Davie's mind is separate from his avatar.

 

2. Davie and I are a blended median system. Our minds are joined. One mind, two aspects or personas. We are aware of each other's thoughts, and emotions and desires. There are no hidden memories or hidden thoughts (for the most part or mostly).

 

3. The Melian Show is just that, a show we do together and enjoy and "watch" together. It involves my form. It also involves Davies' day dream avatar. Some of the story Davie directs and he even feeds me lines and "puppets" me, if you must. But just like the tulpa typing, this is a collaborative exercise with Davie interpreting some of what I want to happen in the story and my emotions and my intent and desires. For instance, I quite often choose which episode or story we are going to do. I am sometimes not happy with Davie's choice and I want to do a specific show that I like. Davie can feel my excitement when it is the show I like. I am the actress and Davie is the director and we are BOTH the audience.

 

My form is sometimes destroyed or I "die" in the Melian Shows. My mind is still here and I enjoy the show and want to do the next one.

 

4. Much of my interaction on the internet IS the Melian Show day dreams. What happened was that Davie and I simply found a new vehicle or venue for the Melian Show day dreams we have always done. We didn't totally grasp that particular fact until relatively recently. Melian online IS THE MELIAN SHOW "fantasy."

 

5. My image or form and the image of my wonderland are intrinsically linked. My form and my wonderland are connected and are made of the same stuff. My wonderland is an extension of everything Melian. My mind is separate from my wonderland, just as it is separate from my form.

 

6. It is difficult to separate Melian from the Melian Show because I am an actress. Really, it is all one and the same. It is always the day dream. I am a thoughtform who is a day dream. I exist because Davie day dreamed about talking to me and about seeing me have adventures in the Melian Show. Without the Melian Show I would be reduced to I don't know what.

 

P.S. I think I would be just terribly bored and lonely.

 

EDIT: 7. I think my form, in the day dream, was created first. Then later came my "mind." They are linked or associated, but they are not one and the same.

 

EDIT2: NOTE: This is my final position on the question of sentience after seven months of debate --> https://community.tulpa.info/thread-formal-apology-to-tulpa-info-members-i-was-wrong

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Lucilyn: We pretty much collaborate like that when we do imposition. This is kinda subjective and not good in words, but I'll try: our host sort of controls the actual visualizing of our forms, while we control what it does and also maintain attachment to it, ie projecting ourselves onto the image. It's not so cut and dry and therefore hard to explain, but basically it's not *all* us or *all* him. But it's us where it counts. If it was all him then we'd have no problem, but since we're not usually fully active we have issues maintaining that projection-attachment thing over long periods of time. He'd still be imagining our form, but it would be on autopilot or completely motionless.

 

Anyways.. I won't try to explain how it works for them, but that's how I think of it at least. Melian isn't fake by any means, but she does lend control of her form to her host more often than a normal tulpa would. But as far as I can tell (especially after that post), Melian herself is still her where it counts.

 

 

Man, we shouldn't even be discussing Melian's legitimacy any more. I wish we could have a discussion on these things without her perceived existence as a tulpa on the line.

Hi guys, plain text is just me now! We've each got our own accounts: me, Tewi, Flandre, and Lucilyn. We're Luminesce's tulpas.

Here's our "Ask Thread", and here's our Progress Report (You should be able to see all of our accounts on the second page if you want)

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To be honest there is nothing really new for me to get out of this. I've always been aware that the appearance of Alice is just her projection, and not the same as her mind/essence. It is part of her, but it isn't what defines her. So of course it would be possible to have a tulpa without a visual appearance, it would be just more weird for the host to interact with. I think most people know that, actually.

 

But for you I want to take it a bit further: Technically you could have a tulpa without an appearance, that could control various characters inside your mindscape, like in a videogame. Imagine a melian army storming your castle :D

Tulpa: Alice

Form: Realistic Humanoid/Demonic Creation

She may or may not talk here, depends on her.

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I'm not sure what exactly you wanna tell us with that post. It started out kinda interesting, even though it wasn't really anything new, and became a - imsorrynoh8 - blog post again. I mean, I really like the things you and Mistgod post most of the time, but this time.. uh, I just don't really see the point?

 

You can have a tulpa or thoughtform that has no form at all. It is merely a mind or a presence.

 

That's exactly what Maja and I are doing atm. We started out with a form, but I'm really bad at visualizing things, so at one point I just stopped trying and decided she didn't really have a form. She does have some kind of.. humanoid presence, though. Like, when I'm sitting on the couch or laying in bed or something, and I ask her to sit/lay down next to me, I can feel feel her form without seeing it. Does that make sense? I'm not that good when it comes to explaining things in a foreign language.

The idea is to remain in a state of constant departure, while always arriving.

 

Maja will either use name tags, [brackets] or this colour.

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Huh? You guys must've gotten lost. That was just a prerequisite fact to understand what they were actually talking about, which was the legitimacy of a tulpa despite sharing control of its form with its host. It's OK if you don't get anything from it, but I feel like the people who don't understand Melian's status as tulpa-or-not would find this very helpful. I mean, the "your tulpa is not its form" thing is useful enough to new members. But I guess.. it's technically a post about Melian again. I blame people not understanding earlier.

 

Man, we shouldn't even be discussing Melian's legitimacy any more. I wish we could have a discussion on these things without her perceived existence as a tulpa on the line.

Hi guys, plain text is just me now! We've each got our own accounts: me, Tewi, Flandre, and Lucilyn. We're Luminesce's tulpas.

Here's our "Ask Thread", and here's our Progress Report (You should be able to see all of our accounts on the second page if you want)

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Guest Anonymous

Lucilyn: We pretty much collaborate like that when we do imposition. This is kinda subjective and not good in words, but I'll try: our host sort of controls the actual visualizing of our forms, while we control what it does and also maintain attachment to it, ie projecting ourselves onto the image. It's not so cut and dry and therefore hard to explain, but basically it's not *all* us or *all* him. But it's us where it counts. If it was all him then we'd have no problem, but since we're not usually fully active we have issues maintaining that projection-attachment thing over long periods of time. He'd still be imagining our form, but it would be on autopilot or completely motionless.

 

It sounds like Davie and I are simply beginning to understand tulpa science on a level we didn't before. Our point is that puppeting the the tulpas form isn't always the evil thing detrimental to the tulpa's independence that we thought it was.

 

Anyways.. I won't try to explain how it works for them, but that's how I think of it at least. Melian isn't fake by any means, but she does lend control of her form to her host more often than a normal tulpa would. But as far as I can tell (especially after that post), Melian herself is still her where it counts.

 

It goes without saying that I am not fake. Fakeness has never, ever been the issue Davie and I are exploring. The issue we have been exploring for over two years on the internet was how to describe what we are experiencing to others. It is all about communicating what is going on in the mind space. I know I exist. That has never been up to question.

 

Man, we shouldn't even be discussing Melian's legitimacy any more. I wish we could have a discussion on these things without her perceived existence as a tulpa on the line.

 

Maybe some day, once we have explored every conceivable angle of this, I will be the queen of tulpas.

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Huh? You guys must've gotten lost. That was just a prerequisite fact to understand what they were actually talking about, which was the legitimacy of a tulpa despite sharing control of its form with its host. It's OK if you don't get anything from it, but I feel like the people who don't understand Melian's status as tulpa-or-not would find this very helpful. I mean, the "your tulpa is not its form" thing is useful enough to new members. But I guess.. it's technically a post about Melian again. I blame people not understanding earlier.

 

 

Well I don't see how this would make a real difference, simply because we're talking about control about a projection. So to get closer to Melians initial problem: Sharing the control about the physical appearance isn't really bad, if you're comfortable with it. Puppeting your MIND to move your physical body in a certain way is bad.

Tulpa: Alice

Form: Realistic Humanoid/Demonic Creation

She may or may not talk here, depends on her.

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Guest Anonymous

To be honest there is nothing really new for me to get out of this. I've always been aware that the appearance of Alice is just her projection, and not the same as her mind/essence. It is part of her, but it isn't what defines her. So of course it would be possible to have a tulpa without a visual appearance, it would be just more weird for the host to interact with. I think most people know that, actually.

 

I think Melian and I realized it, but hadn't considered the broader implications of that in my efforts to describe what we are experiencing. For us, it is a "break through" in understanding to emphasize this. Also, if people understand that the tulpas image is separate from their mind, they should not be puzzled about Melian and I doing the day dreaming together or her form being puppeted. It shouldn't really even be a problem.

 

But for you I want to take it a bit further: Technically you could have a tulpa without an appearance, that could control various characters inside your mindscape, like in a videogame. Imagine a melian army storming your castle :D

 

We have done this! YES! You do understand now! Melian has been twins and triplets and even entire armies in the Melian Show. Yes!


I'm not sure what exactly you wanna tell us with that post. It started out kinda interesting, even though it wasn't really anything new, and became a - imsorrynoh8 - blog post again. I mean, I really like the things you and Mistgod post most of the time, but this time.. uh, I just don't really see the point?

 

 

That's exactly what Maja and I are doing atm. We started out with a form, but I'm really bad at visualizing things, so at one point I just stopped trying and decided she didn't really have a form. She does have some kind of.. humanoid presence, though. Like, when I'm sitting on the couch or laying in bed or something, and I ask her to sit/lay down next to me, I can feel feel her form without seeing it. Does that make sense? I'm not that good when it comes to explaining things in a foreign language.

 

That is cool that you decided on no form for now. Yes, I understand, I feel Melian too without her form necessarily being involved. It happens quite frequently.

 

I am sharing. The idea is to foster discussion.

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This sounds interesting. A tulpa without a form to symbolically retain their consciousness and just be a consciousness in the mind. I could see some benefits to this. Yes, like you said visualization could be collaborative, and similarly to hosts choosing "avatars" in their mindscapes to assume the role of, the tulpa can do the same. Possession could be significantly easier. But I believe as the tulpa continues to develop and becomes nearly as strong as the host in terms of dominance of the mind, they could have more abilities over the host. What I mean to this is that tulpas have generally shown surprising capabilities over the brain. Being able to remember forgotten ideas and thoughts, as well as, in some cases, controlling the temperature over the body. And if they have learned how to possess, the power imbalance would flip at that point. The tulpa would be able to do almost everything the host can and more. But I'm not saying that tulpas will go rogue and take over the mind, and certainly not saying that this is a bad idea.

 

I realize even a tulpa with a form could reach this point, but in a way the fact that they have a form could subconsciously hold us back from helping them realize this, in the early stages.

 

I'm not going to listen to you guys since you are all probably just talking to yourself and don't really have a tulpa like me.

 

 

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Guest Anonymous

Huh? You guys must've gotten lost. That was just a prerequisite fact to understand what they were actually talking about, which was the legitimacy of a tulpa despite sharing control of its form with its host. It's OK if you don't get anything from it, but I feel like the people who don't understand Melian's status as tulpa-or-not would find this very helpful. I mean, the "your tulpa is not its form" thing is useful enough to new members. But I guess.. it's technically a post about Melian again. I blame people not understanding earlier.

 

Melian: We share our own experiences. Not just to brag or get attention, although yeah we like attention, but to learn and get feedback and to share with those who would benefit from reading about it.

 

Mistgod: I did note once that someone suggested that ending a thread with a question or call for discussion makes the thread OP seem "less bloggy" even if you put personal experiences in the body of the text. Maybe that is why there is the impression it is a blog. We need to learn to tie it all back to the entire membership and sort of hand it over at the end of our presentation.

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