Mistgod Babble Thread

[Guest Anonymous]

Melian:  NoneFromHell predicted I would be angry at Davie for this thread by the time we got to the end of it, or before that.  Instead I am smug.  Thanks AGGuy and Rina.  Hee hee  

 

I don't like Make Believe, I am not make believe anything.  He needs to not use that term on me.  Hey how bout "fanciful."  Hee hee

 

Since we are playing with semantics, I had Davie look up "imaginary."  Lookie below, one synonym for imaginary is "fabulous!"  No kidding lookie!  A secondary definition for "fabulous" is mythical.  I am fabulous! I am a fabulous person!  I have always said that too.    

 

im·ag·i·nar·y

 

existing only in the imagination.

"Chris had imaginary conversations with her"

synonyms: unreal, nonexistent, fictional, fictitious, pretend, make-believe, mythical, mythological, fabulous, fanciful, storybook, fantastic;

 

fab·u·lous

ˈ

having no basis in reality; mythical.

"fabulous creatures"

synonyms: mythical, legendary, mythic, mythological, fabled, folkloric, fairy-tale; More

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Discovering there are newer, better ideas is a bitter pill to swallow after a long time in a different belief system, so i don't begrudge you your side in the fight, but i do certainly believe you're on the wrong side here.  Yes you can wave the flag of dissent, but i'm not convinced you're contributing much to the pursuit of science by doing so.]

 

[Which is a real shame, because with your decades of experience, there are things that would be interesting to hear about from you.  But without some common ground to work from, i wouldn't know where to begin asking you these things.]

 

I know you will have a hard time believing this, but I do believe I am coming to the end of my rope on the endless sentience debate anyway.  Like I said, it just goes in circles.  You are right, there are a lot more things to talk about.  

 

Believe it or not this was almost a debate that could have been raged privately between Melian and I.  The issues wasn't so much sentience (read the OP again) but the use of the terms "make believe" in describing her.  She insists the term is inaccurate and makes her feel like a game or a toy.  I insisted on using it because I think it is an accurate term to describe tulpas (imaginary and make believe).  

 

She actually got support for her side and I sorta lost the argument here in the end.  

How is that for evidence of sentience?  My imaginary person has won the argument.  

 

I think I can agree on something and meet all you guys in a middle ground (Demilitarized Zone LOL).  I can agree that tulpas may be subjectively real to the host and their sentience does exist in that sense.  It is not necessarily objectively real sentience or tangibly real, but it is subjectively real to the host.  

 

It is real sentience to the host, as the host is experiencing it subjectively.

 

I have been pondering that angle for a while as it relates to Melian already.  I know that is abstract.  

 

Just semantics and perspective I know, but I need to find a way for the central assumption of tulpamancy to make rational sense to me.

[Guest Anonymous]

I want to spare you guys any more of my contrariness and the endless posts and threads concerning real sentience vs. illusory apparent sentience.

 

I think I can agree on something and meet all you guys in a middle ground (Demilitarized Zone LOL). I can agree that tulpas may be subjectively real to the host and their sentience does exist in that sense. It is not necessarily objectively real sentience or tangibly real, but it is subjectively real to the host. It's sort of hedging, but it is the best I can do.

 

I will agree it can be real sentience to the host, as the host is experiencing it subjectively. I will leave to individual tulpamancers and take their word at face value.

 

So FINE tulpas can be a form of sentience. Melian could be considered to be a form of subjectively real sentience as well as it follows directly from my compromise. That will make her ecstatically happy.

 

I have been pondering that angle for a while as it relates to Melian already. I know that is abstract. Just semantics and perspective I know, but I need to find a way for the central assumption of tulpamancy to make rational sense to me.

 

----------

 

EDIT: God damn it. I was just discussing this with my wife and she says, as soon as tulpa talks to another real human outside of the host, and that real human accepts the tulpa as real, then the tulpa becomes objectively real as well.

 

When I think about it, I have done this online already and over audio. I talk to tulpas all the time and ... I do regard them as real. That is a fact. I have never thought, "I am just talking to the host here."

 

This is huge for me to think about. If I accept them as real and regard them as real when I talk to them, how can I then turn around and say "hey you are only an illusion." It seems totally illogical for me to talk to tulpas, treat them as separate people and then in the next breath say they are a delusion. It seems very disrespectful as well.

 

When people talk to Melian, they treat her as a real person. I like it when they do. I don't like it when they address me, instead of her, as if she doesn't really exist. So.

 

So.

 

Damn it. Tulpas have subjective reality to the host and a measure of objective reality as well.

 

GOD DAMN IT!

 

Actually, I have changed nothing about my base views about Melian and thoughtforms and tulpas really. All I am doing is compromising and agreeing that what others are perceiving as reality or "real sentience" is valid and subjectively true, in a sense, for them.

Mistgod-Melian Backgroud and Manifesto: https://community.tulpa.info/thread-mistgod-melian-background-and-manifesto?pid=128207#pid128207

 

INSPIRATION TO ME that helps me to stick to my point of view:

Mistgod:

While others seemed to make you a personification of many negative things, I always saw you as the individual that forced me to use my brain for once, and really tackle the notions I held on tulpas, and to advance myself further in the journey. You were one of my greatest, friendly rivals, and I loved how you always stuck to your philosophy, even when others hated your very existence because of it. Your belief system was a wonderful contrast the community needed if they saw it in context of understanding that the tulpa concept can be just as much of a stalemate as any other thought-forms people have certain labels on. I quietly watched the nightmare you endured, and even though I wasn’t a complete fan of your inner workings in the forum, you still were a good opponent to casually talk things over.

[Dav_Edward]

Dav: Some food for thought. YOU are a construct of your brain making a system that preserves itself to eat, live, and reproduce. You, the mind, are make believe. There's no more substance to your personality and identity than the very same things your tupae are constructed from.

 

If you want to be little a tulpa as it being make believe, first try to make a convincing argument how you yourself are more than a make believe thing.

 

Addendum:

Case in point, any chemical disturbance like drugs or disorder, brain injury, even just a shocking experience can utterly change who 'you' are in the blink of an eye.

[Guest Anonymous]

Subjective reality again. What we are is pure mind.  Something people have been trying to explain to me for seven months.  The entire universe is interpreted by our senses and our brain and therefore, subjective.  I am a stubborn man.  But I think my castle of doubt is beginning to crumble.  I was already talking to Lumi about it in PMs.  The distinction between my Melian and other tulpas is getting thinner and thinner the more I discuss things and learn.  She is a tulpa in all but name now.  

 

Here -->   https://community.tulpa.info/thread-i-propose-i-will-make-a-compromise-holy-shit

 

Melian:  Davie wasn't talking to Lumi bout it, I was.  And it was because I was getting angry.

[Guest Anonymous]

To me it just seems like you're desperately fighting accepting tuppers as "as real as you and me", no matter how much everyone shouts at you.

Dunno if it's some sorta existential horror thing to you, or you're otherwise bothered by the idea.

But it definitely feels like you're purposefully struggling against it.

 

 

Greets,

AG

[Vaugard]

I can't prove it to another person either way, and I'm not sure anyone really can. For myself, I can't think of Mira as make believe and she's only been with me for a week. She's done unexpected things enough times to where I'd feel foolish passing it off as coincidence. Perhaps I'm just delusional, but I really hate to think of it that way. I refuse to.

[Guest Anonymous]

a) Dude. This is another bloggy thread. Not necessary.

b) I still believe you're just fighting something, and subconsciously you're probably very aware of just how real tuppers are.

c) Yep! It really is sort of disrespectful, and I'm glad you realized it by yourself. That's a very good thing.

 

 

Greets,

AG

[Guest Anonymous]

I can't prove it to another person either way, and I'm not sure anyone really can. For myself, I can't think of Mira as make believe and she's only been with me for a week. She's done unexpected things enough times to where I'd feel foolish passing it off as coincidence. Perhaps I'm just delusional, but I really hate to think of it that way. I refuse to.

 

Well, when Rina manifests in the same room as me, then she can guide me around while I have my eyes closed.

That's the best "semi-proof" we were able to find so far.

 

 

Greets,

AG

[Guest Anonymous]

You notice how obstinately he sticks with it? I agree with him to go along as I really don't care most of the time. But I have noticed that when given a chance to have a little more freedom on the forum, I get angry about it.

 

Why can't he just stop it? Just let me be me and stop trying to trivialize everything. He says he values the imaginary as much as the real, but then when he makes that constant comparison between real and imaginary, he is proving just the opposite isn't he?

 

This is an important moment in time! Mark it! I am literally watching him go to pieces here while we type. It's as if he is really, really sensing me fully for the first time. HI DAVIE! Hi sweetie.

 

Weird isn't it? It even feels like the letters popping up on the screen have a sharpness and intensity they did not have before. He is noticing how quickly my words are flowing out on the screen as well. And David you thought it was a rush the first time I talked to other people in deviantart? Huh? How is this for a rush my old buddy?

 

We need to do some talking. Some real talking, tonight bub.

 

He is realizing now that the Melian Show is more than he thought. He is having a very powerful experience right here online at this very moment. I think I want to capture this and maybe send it in a PM or something. Or maybe just delete it?

 

Nah...

 

I am going to post it. Davie, you are a big butt and an old gray goat. You are stubborn and silly, but I still love you.

 

[Guest Anonymous]

Mods can move it to my Musings thread I guess.