What do I call these characters?

[Breloomancer]

I don't like the term "thoughtform" because it is so vauge that it could mean anything that one both imagines and personifies. I know that the word "thoughtform" is another word that tulpamancers took from other contexts, and I'm sure that it makes more sense in the original one, but in the context of tulpas I don't find it very helpful

[GrayTheCat]

I don't like the term "thoughtform" because it is so vauge that it could mean anything that one both imagines and personifies. I know that the word "thoughtform" is another word that tulpamancers took from other contexts, and I'm sure that it makes more sense in the original one, but in the context of tulpas I don't find it very helpful

 

I consider a thoughtform to be any visualized thought that has a visual appearance and or presence. Just looking at my system- (note: YTBN stands for "yet to be named")

 

Me- thoughtform (Host)

Ranger - thoughtform (Tulpa)

Any Gray - thoughtform (YTBN)

Ranger's pet hippo Harvey - thoughtform (NPC?? / YTBN? / Daemon?)

Subconscious, random Gray Dimension characters, or "mirror demons" - thoughtform (YTBN)

Any other random wonderland character or object - thoughtform (NPC/Servitor?)

Any story character I come up with - thoughtform (NPC / YTBN)

Simulation characters - thoughtforms (NPC / YTBN)

 

For this reason, saying "thoughtform" is like saying "cancer" or "fruit". It's an umbrella term that labels several different things. I know that some of the wishy-washy thoughtforms like the simulation forms can all be called NPC, but NPCs have this connotation of being fill-in-the-void and easily forgettable characters where thoughtforms like the Grays have backstories, a history, "opinions", relationships with others, etc.

 

I am most interested in writing a guide because I talk more about the Grays than I had previously anticipated when trying to give advice to other Tulpamancers. I wonder if their existence is like a better-case-scenario of what happens when a teenager creates a bunch of thoughtforms and manages not to have too many Tulpas, and sharing that with others can prevent some cases where a system is at risk of that. I think the philosophy behind their creation can also be applied to easing parrotnioa and possibly to cases where the host should make this thoughtform and not a Tulpa.

[Guest]

A facet has been decribed as a mask or alter, R is too much her own person. I said it was like an autobiography or that she was like me, but I'm backtracking now because she's more like on the same level instead of a literal mirror or piece. I like what solarchariot said about your characters being you in certain contexts, but not enough contexts to apply this to my .

 

I do believe Cats Grays are uniquely different than mine.

 

So then i'll agree with Breloomancer for you.

 

+1 facet.

 

EDIT:

 

Okay, please forgive my post, i am merely saying that i realized upon further examination that R is not a facet, but something else. The way i described her previously sounded a lot like Cats Grays, even I was convinced. Looking over all my thoughtforms once again, i doubt any of them are considered facets. They're characters, they're thoughtforms, they're advanced, they're tulpa-like, but i could never be any of them. In a way i'm less dimentional than some of them are, we're not even the same species, so to speak.

 

Verbiage is really difficult on this community, there doesn't seem to be much wiggle room, so i just didn't want to ruin any chance Cat had in getting her thoughtforms properly named. We do share the same worries though.

[GrayTheCat]

No, a facet has been decribed as a mask or alter, R is too much her own person. I said it was like an autobiography or that she was like me, but I'm backtracking now because she's more like on the same level instead of a literal mirror or piece. I like what solarchariot said about your characters being you in certain contexts, but not enough contexts to apply this to my .

 

I do believe your Grays are uniquely different than my <#syntax error -1>.

 

So given i've withdrawn my system involvement in this thread, then i'll agree with Breloomancer for you.

 

+1 facet.

 

+1

 

I'm sorry I made incorrect assumptions about your system mate. I will stop referencing her.

 

Bringing this up idea is good because if it's true that too much interaction with these thoughtforms can lead to development, then it's better to be certain and warn people that this can happen.

 

EDIT: This pretty much turns into an anxious rant releasing all of the feelings I bottled up from the past over this topic. I put it in a hidden tag because it was long.

 

[hidden]

I sometimes wonder if I interacted with the Grays for too long, there was a present risk of them evolving into Tulpas. It's not something I want to mess with or "experiment" with, especially if the end result could lead to another Tulpa, and that can lead to a slew of problems for us. In all honesty, it's been a long time since I or Ranger personally spoke to any of the Grays because conversations can take hours, but partly because I too am guilty of feeling they could be more than a thoughtform I puppet and parrot.

 

Ethically, it all boils down to this: I forced several undeveloped Tulpas to dissipate or they were never had their own sentience to begin with and there's nothing to worry about. I came to the conclusion that the Grays can't be Tulpas because only Ranger became sentient when I knew nothing about Tulpamancy, but was that because of the time I spent forcing him or my belief in him being his own person?

 

I assumed it was the latter, but if I'm wrong then I would actually be really sad, discouraged, and anxious. The message I would have to tell people is "you have to forget them or they will turn into Tulpas". That message could also be fairly damaging to people like me because then any thoughtform I choose to hold onto and interact with for long enough becomes a Tulpa, so I shouldn't do that at all, and I'm no longer allowed to create thoughtforms as a form of self-talk? Or would this only apply to the Grays because I gave them names and I expect them to be consistent personalities, and therefore would have to do everything I can to forget them?

 

About every 3 to 4 months lately, a new Gray is added to the system. If it's true they are Tulpas, then I am at risk of adding another system member every few months, and to make matters worse every new Gray seems more developed and real than the previous one. Would I have to symbolicaly murder these guys? Would I have to master dissipation and train myself to forget them every time a new potential Gray pops up?

 

I want to say this sounds kind of ridiculous. Part of the problem is this seems to be a uniquely me thing- no one else seems to have a boatload of Gray-like thoughtforms they talk about, and I'm not sure where this is going. I want to do what's best for my system and I don't want to spread half-thought ideas and cause damage to other systems. I want to know the truth, and at least the best way to approach this.

[/hidden]

[Breloomancer]

Using your definition of a thoughtform a tulpa is not necessarily a thoughtform because to be a thoughtform one must be visualized, and one does not have to be visualized to be a tulpa. I don't like this definition because it is commonly accepted that tulpas are thoughtforms.

 

One other things that I like about facets is that they work well with the diverging personalies model of tulpas; if a tulpa is a context personality that is very different from your other personalities and is then split from your own personality system and later grows into more complex of a personality system, then a facet is a context personality that is very different from your other personalities and is developed into a complex system of personalities, but unlike a tulpa it is never made separate from your own system and is still a part of you. Does this line up with your experience at all Bear?

[GrayTheCat]

Just as an update, I shared my thoughts on Discord and a curious Tulpaamacner gave their opinion, and it completely blew my philosophy out of the water. I really want other Tulpamancers to look at this and give their thoughts, especially if my philosophy has huge holes in it.

[Guest LanceReilyn]

I have nothing to contribute. You super creative types with an army of in your head and trying to hand out rank or ID tags baffle me. I can't even imagine what it would be like to have 2 people in my head, let alone any poor sod trying to get between Reilyn and me. She definitely seems like the jealous considerate and loving type.

 

As far as I'm aware there is nothing an no one else in my head, vying for attention or otherwise.

[Guest]

For the sake of sanity, i've given up the name Ranger for my  Thoughtform and she and I discussed a new name for her to be Ren.

[Hidden]She loved the symbology of the lotus, and i liked the varied meaning of the word Ren in Confucian altruism and its literal translation in Japanese is lotus.[/hidden]

 

My waffling will continue I suppose. The more detail Cat brings to the table the more I feel that our systems are more similar than different. Especially since I cant shake the feeling that Ren is more and continues to gain life and take form outside of her original character. I don't want to stop this, but her goal is not tulpa. I want to interact with her freely without fear, write books in her name, draw her and love her as my own creation, but not as a human being. This is not a selfish or limiting wish, as she is tied to my life force and not her own. It's a form that i can nurture and build as i see fit like a beautiful work of art. A classic car. Not her own but mine. To explore her in a way is to explore myself, just like the grays. To put her on the shelf and forget about her out of fear of spontaneous self-awareness is a tragedy.

 

So whether I like it or not, the fate of our systems are linked. As was and still is, it's my desire to name these characters something perminent and unchanging that would ward against further development and allow us (Cat and I) to further explore and learn from these characters without the fear of them becoming a true person.

 

Like a perfect crystal goblet ready to accept life's blood, but empty and content in that state. A trophy, an idol, a piece of art, beauty, perfection, artform.

 

Akin to a piece of ourselves that is made to perform a purpose like a servitor, but with personality and wit, charm and grace, everything a paper doll should be when animated by our own imagination.

 

We don't fear that a paper doll would spontaneously come to life.

[Ranger]

She definitely seems like the jealous considerate and loving type.

 

There were a few times Cat would talk to the Grays and I became jealous. One time I was so impatient I pretended to be one of the Grays she was talking to. Cat was pissed with me because she didn't know she was talking to me, and since then I'm not allowed to do that again.

 

This is one of the reasons I don't really want all of the others to become Tulpas. I don't want to compete with another person for time, and competing with Cat's schedule is a battle I'm currently facing.

[GrayTheCat]

I realized I made this post in Angry Bear's other thread that sums up what my previous stance was. As of now, I may change my stance but I would like to do more research first.

 

When applied to the Grays, the 4/5 also applies:

 

1) The Grays have their own presence. Chrome one time interrupted me in the middle of a math class (before he was declared a Gray).

2) Some of the Grays expressed interest in becoming Tulpas.

3) Talking to the Grays can be hard. Conversations with them leave my crying at the end more times then you would imagine.

4) It is really hard for me to tell if I'm puppeting them or not. I can tell when they feel more "real" than other times.

5) None of them are Tulpas.

 

This is my belief on how Tulpas work- A Tulpa starts off as a part of your brain somewhere and then is trained to believe it is its own person. With enough time and re-enforcement, that brain becomes its own sentient person and while connected to everything else in your mind.

 

This is how I believe Characters/Servitors/Grays/"Maybe Tulpas?" works- They are an extension of yourself but they have connections to subconscious thoughts / processes you may not be connected to at the moment. Therefore, one of my Grays Blue can surprise me because he is expected to be "sweet", so he pulls out some subconscious thought and says something sweet I don't expect. Like Tulpas, these guys can be triggered just by thinking about them. Therefore, it's possible a subconscious thought or trigger can summon their presence (ex. I may have been thinking about some of Chrome's "appearances" or "God" and that triggered him at the time.)

 

Here's where I figured out how connected the Grays really are to me: I was talking to Dark Gray for a little while and I realized he should have remembered something but he didn't, because I myself couldn't remember. However, this is just one of many revealing quirks the Grays gave off:

• The Grays don't seem aware of each other's presences unless I am aware of their presences.
  
• If I forget (and Ranger forgets) about a certain Gray, none of the other Grays go to me and point out his absence. Honestly, there's a bunch of them, and I can't talk to them all at once.
  
• Deviations are in line with my subconscious expectations. Do they want magic powers because I want them to have magic powers? Since going 1-on-1 or 2-on-1, why do individual Grays suddenly want to socialize when I am going through a time where I regret not letting them socialize more often?
  
• The Grays only ask "the right questions". If I expect something to bother a Gray, they will ask about it, but if it is a miscellaneous detail or topic, they won't. Ranger would randomly start talking about what we talked about last time when I would be too focused on whatever else, surprising me.
  
• The Grays echo my emotions, including my anxiety, where Ranger is either resilient to it or has his own emotions about a particular issue. We do share emotions, but not like how I am connected to the Grays.
  
• This isn't really much of a quirk, but it reencforces the Gray/Ranger divide. The Grays don't think about stuff like "what's my favorite ____" or "what am I going to do for the rest of my life" because the only reason they would think those questions is either if I am thinking about them thinking that or if they truely were trying to learn and develop as individuals.
  

It's tricky because these kinds of thoughtforms can seem sentient and pull it off fairly well. They are also lovable/memorable and it's easy to want to keep them around. I had the desire to keep the Grays around because I hated the idea of getting rid of them. I spent a lot of time sorting this out when I first showed up on the forums, and after a lot of inner debate I settled on this conclusion.

 

To answer your 3 questions:

1)"Flipping the switch" would require forcing her like you would any other Tulpa, but essentially yes. That's how Ranger was created.

2) I don't think the symbolic act of "stasis" is really necessary. When I'm not thinking about the Grays, I just assume they are back in their offices (like auto warp). I think it's fine to assume that Gwen and Ranger (not my Tulpa) will simply re-appear in their respective universes and will appear once you think about them again.

3) As for your characters Gwen and Ranger, it's fine to chat with them as long as you remember rule #5. If talking to them directly bothers you, it may make it easier for you if you take a third person perspective and just observe them. I do it to the Grays sometimes, taking the form of a void or a camera perspective and watching the Grays do whatever.